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Charles2222 -> (8/2/2002 10:53:45 PM)
Les the Sarge 9-1: I agree on all points. Perhaps the majority of the groundwork needed for CL, which was crafted from SPWAW, was the need to determine just what the customers wanted. There also quite a lot to be said about how actually people running a game and having a forum for it at the same time, gleams so much ideas otherwise unattainable. I don't know about you, but frankly I can't believe how lousy some of the beta-testers must be for games when so many glaring errors remain. I realize part of the problem si the hurry it up and get it out aspect, but it sure does beg people to take up another hobby. I think also some of the items once debated are pretty much settled, for better or worse, such as Tiger FT armor, so that though they may be brought up yet again, at least those items have been drug through the mud a bit and some settling occurs.

Kanon Fodder -> (8/2/2002 11:29:57 PM)
Well, from my point of view, Matrix may have given us too much already ... I only have a certain amount of time to dedicate to playing games; real life "gets in the way" these days. If I were 30 years younger I would probably rarely see the light of day. There are so many excellent scenarios yet to be played, not to mention the campaigns, that I am probably 'set' for years. I don't think I could consider tackling one of the Mega Campaigns before retirement. Now, if they would just allow tanks to reverse ... :D

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/3/2002 12:14:09 AM)
You know that "tanks reversing" thing has had me vexed in the past as well eh. Plenty of times I have moved into a spot I would rather get out of by not having to show my butt to the problem I was seeking to avoid. We all know tanks reverse. Why exactly was this left out of the game anyway? Must have been mentioned earlier somewhere, but I have not encountered it myself. With regards to "hurry up and wait", yeah I have seen a lot of this phenomenon. Each decade that goes past sees yet another generation that grows even more dependent on rapid response technology it seems. Pre - order has to be the latest incarnation of a society that has no concept of patience. At one time it was credit cards. People should learn to only buy something after spending the time needed to save the money in the first place. I have seen such a wealth of comments on Battlefront's forums that indicate they can't even endure waiting a week for a game to ship let alone what was in my early gaming experiences usually a 1-2 span of time. Computer technology is partly spurred on by a need for glitz, and partly because today's society is dominated by an inability to spend more than a fleeting moment before geting bored. On that note, the greatest danger to the wargaming hobby might be the increasing inability to get anyone interested in any activity that requires even the most modest form of participation for more than a few minutes. Ours news is all just sound bites, our movies are all special effects to keep our attention, are games are all pretty graphics to keep us entertained instead of thinking, requiring a person to actually read the rules of a game is usually considered absurd (hence the reason most games are designed with fast play rules (heaven forbid a person should be forced to learn the game first). Funny, I started off with wondering why tanks can't reverse heheh:D

G_X -> (8/3/2002 1:50:53 AM)
Heh...me and my friends have, using a hex based system, devised a few neat table top strategy games, with some rather advanced rules, one of them is baed off the Heavy Gear Tactical game, and another is a game rather similar to WaW. I got into Wargaming not on the tactical level, but on the bottom base 1 man level, or two man, as the AH-64D Apache Longbow is a two manned set up :) That was my first game that had anything to do with war, and is still one of my favorites, flying low over trees to take down an enemy tank convoy...popping up over a hill just long enough for my radar to acquire a tank and launch a Hellfire then dripping back down to avoid getting hit by a SAM...it was great. After a while I got into the tactical level, but with model-based Board games, specifically, Warhammer, and Warhammer 40k. (Yes, I know many Tabletop Wargamers think Games Workshop is pure Evil...I don't know why I love every one of their games...) After a while I found a few more other games, so on, till I got introduced to RTS's, my first RTS was the original Command and Conquer, and my first true favorite RTS was Red Alert (The original) I'd play Allied just to get a group of APCs and set up a mechanized Infantry company, it was loads of fun. Then I got turned onto Turn Based games, and I've kinda never gone back, and never wanted to. Games like WaW and SPMBT are almost all I play any more, and if I can't control other people somehow, I usually don't like a game much. I'm not one of the people worried about how glitzy it looks, or how much time it takes...So I suppose it takes that 'Special Breed' to be a Wargamer, instead of just a Gamer... Makes you feel kind of proud that you have the patience, the intellect, and the attention span when you think about it, anyways, I'm off to go continue my NA Campaign, heh.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/3/2002 2:57:47 AM)
The only thing evil about Games Workshop, is how they charge top dollar for their bottom of the heap models. I had thought of geting into the hobby a while back when some buddies were testing the waters. One of my friends asked me to build his tank for him. Now just to keep details straight I have been a "professional model maker", so just as a skilled programmer can make sweeping statements, so too can I say that Games Workshop's models are categorically "CRAP"!!. I was paid 40 bucks to make that model, and you know something, I will never ever accept a request to build one ever again, even for good pay. I have never ever witnessed such disgusting marketing practices from another model making company. They mass produce items and mix and match parts such that the models are sold as entirely new kits, yet with well beaten to death molds. And you pay a price for these kits that would even make a fan of high end models squirm uncomfortably. 50 bucks is ok for a top of the line Tamiya model fresh out of a new mold, but you would be lucky to get me to assess a Games Workshop kit above 5 bucks. The game might be fun, but their product is my means of measuring the bottom rung on the ladder.

G_X -> (8/3/2002 6:37:22 AM)
Heh...well, I won't disagree with that, well, I kinda will. I've yet to have a model that didn't look incredible when it was put together. Yes, sometimes there are little "glitches" in the molds...and other things, sure. But I know alot of other companies, in other businesses, who do alot of the same things. If GW is Evil, then there are alot of Evil companies out there. I don't like GW's prices, :Rolleyes: Nor do I like the fact that for most people, you ~must~ use the ~specific~ models to play the game...I'd much prefer, especially for my Imperial Guardsmen, to design and build some pewter models myself (I have the tools to do this) But since the rule books basically state that you need to use their models...Blah. And the cost was what eventually got me out of the WH and WH40k worlds, I just don't have that kind of cash lately. And, also...if you ~trully~ wish to be technical, GW is not Evil for doing this, Citadel Models is :) as they are the ones who produce the paints, and model kits.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/3/2002 7:20:41 AM)
Yes to be more accurate it IS the manufacturers of the models that get my scorn. I played the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying game for a time. It is easily one of the best opne book will do you roleplaying games in existence (by one book I mean you won't suffer if you don't buy anything else). But a miniatures game that petulantly tells you to get stuffed if you don't use specifically over priced junk won't impress most generall speaking. I think the figures are sometimes ok as far as examples of interesting subjects, but they are marketed to people that will be buying them in lots not individual items. As a collector of fantasy miniatures, I only want one of anything if I want it at all.

G_X -> (8/3/2002 8:03:02 AM)
I would love it if the GW models were 3 or 4 dollars for the single-man sets that I prefer, to buy them in little bubble sets I spend a few hours painting and detailing each one, changing them and posing them if I have to, I have a full platoon of Imperial Guard infantry done this way, each model is unique, I actually have several Dioramas also, depicting scenes from battles I've played, it's just a hobby I have that eats up too much cash lately, if the pieces were pre-professionally painted (Done the way I do them, and detailed properly) I would think they might be worth $7 or $8, but for them to come unpainted, and often not even fully assembled, this price is extravagant... I just have other things to spend my money on...like saving it for CL. :D

OKW-73 -> (8/3/2002 10:51:47 AM)
oh well...just noticed that my puter cant handle Combat Leader, :( so i guess im pretty stuck in spwaw, but after all its a greatest game this far :) wonder why all games need to go that **** 1000mb 3D cards and super giga mega hyper cpu things...its just too much for old 233mhz and poor OKW :(

G_X -> (8/3/2002 11:26:53 AM)
I agree OKW...I think that WaW's graphics were great, and I don't see how CL can look that much better just because it needs even more system resources...bleh... Hopefully I'll get a new comp soon, or be able to upgrade this one.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/3/2002 6:44:33 PM)
I feel your thoughts OKW-73 Competition is a major pain in the butt. We aaaaaall KNOW that Combat Leader could be done and done great at the exact same computational level as Steel Panthers. That this is true is not something anyone can argue against, they would be wasting breath trying to convince people that know better. The only thing that will make Combat Leader sell is the certainty that we gamers know the designers can do it, and do it well. We have seen them tweak and fuss with Steel Panthers. Their level of accomplishment is all the advertising they could wish for. If they can fuss with an old DOS game and make it as good as anything currrent, then they can make a new game from scratch, minus all the minor imperfections in Steel Panthers. And considering Steel Panthers is like 5+ years old (which is like forever in computer terms), why is it the game aaaaaabsolutely must force its fan base to purchase all new hardware just to play Combat Leader. I have been following many threads on many variations of thought. A common theme is we all want to play older games. These older games all in most cases require us to forcibly employ older computers. If we are all using older machines out of necessity, then does it makes little sense to intentionally develope a game a large portion of us won't be able to run?. As we speak I have Steel Panthers WaW 7.1 on my primary OS (Win XP). I have Steel Panthers 2 Modern Battles, Steel Panthers 3 Brigade Combat (both original cds), SPWW2, and SPMBT all on the computer, but I have to play them all in my alternate OS (Win 98SE). I also have Operational Art of War Elite Edition Volume 1 and 2 in there. These are all my primary games too. I have Panzer General 1 and 2 that run in Win XP fortunately, plus I have Europe in Flames East Front II and West Front Combat Pack. If tomorrow I lucked out and acquired a new video card, and it would not play those games, would immediately sell the video card (this is not something I would spend even 5 seconds debating over). Those games come first. True a game needs to remain "savvy", but just how many of us are in fact interested in the "cute games" that need those "savvy" computers. Most look at Steel Panthers and either see a DOS dinosaur and chuckle, or they see a game that does exactly what we want in a game. The ones chuckling are the ones with the savvy computers, and they are off playing Combat Mission or some other Baywatch game and I don't expect them to be lining up for Combat Leader with the same level of interest we old DOS game fans will be. Is it possible enforcing a video upgrade (that will likely stick us with a video card that won't like our older games too probably), will potentially cause Combat Leader to sell less units than it might. This is a VERY real question that Matrix better soundly consider. They are staking a lot of cash on this decision. As we speak I am one of the persons that likely won't be buying Combat Leader till next income tax time (thats 6 months from now eh). I of course don't like that, but I have no power over the conditions. I will be lucky to get the video card. It will leave me penniless for a 60 dollar (US might add) video game. If Combat Leader is released in say Nov you will be several months getting my order. That statement can be relied upon. And I know what happens with software, we all do. 6 months is the entire realistic lifespan of most games. If Combat Leader Iron Cross stumbles and falls, the Modern crowd will be moping and dragging their heels off to bug the makes of SPMBT for help. I can't expect it to be released with less than 32 meg video requirement, to late in the game for that. I am unlikely to see my needs get any real impact. I will be here on the form no doubt throughout the whole process. But I am not encouraged, I am not overly hopefull. 6 months from now I will still be able to run Steel Panthers. 6 months from now the game will continue to be great. 6 months from now I might have to give up on getting Combat Leader. 6 months from now Matrix could be staring at an ugly situation financially. Is it possible to make 2 versions of Combat Leader? Yes I know that is an absurd question but so what. Is it possible to make it an 8 meg video card based game?

rich12545 -> (8/3/2002 9:53:46 PM)
I agree. I've been buying new computers and upgrading now for more than 20 years. I can afford to get the latest pentium 4 with a 64 meg video card but I won't. That's enough. I have more than enough games to last a lifetime. And I just got Soldiers at War and Pacific General over the internet for peanuts. There are more than 300 scenarios downloadable from the web for those two games alone. I can understand why the latest first person shooter needs a higher end computer but not a war game like cl. I will never buy cl because of the requirements.

ToyImp -> (8/3/2002 10:02:46 PM)
[QUOTE]I can understand why the latest first person shooter needs a higher end computer but not a war game like cl. I will never buy cl because of the requirements. [/QUOTE] What is CL? Also, I think that some of the bugs should be fixed. I have a problem when I go to play a Battle with a random map, the map doesn't even get generated. All I get is a black area for the map. And about that shovel thing, If the people who are giving out the shovel should help the person, since the store gave it out. (But most people would say oh well, because they got it for free anyway.) I'm not saying that they should HAVE to fix the remaining bugs, but it would be nice since it is a really really good game.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/3/2002 10:38:51 PM)
Hmm seven posts, ok I hope I don't give offense (mistaking you for a newcomer) CL is Combat Leader (you can find all sorts of info on it in the Combat Leader Iron Cross Forum). Combat Leader is an entirely new game (not to be confused with an add on or evolution of Steel Panthers). It is apparently where the Steel Panthers experience is headed though. Soon all the things that might be problematic about Steel Panthers might become moot (because you won't be limited to just playing Steel Panthers any more). To date, Steel Panthers exists as original (SSI sold version), plus versions all the way up to SPWaW 7.1 You can find it being called SPWW2 and SPMBT But SPWaW is derived from the Steel Panthers III Brigade Combat code (if I am not mistaken), while SPWW2 and SPMBT are derived from the Steel Panthers 2 Modern Battles code (again if I am not mistaken). Opinions being what they are, some will champion one over the other. Me personally, I prefer SPWaW primarily because my computer likes it the most (accuracy issues don't get ya far when the program is a pain to run). There are those that will notice bugs from time to time (it's part of having a computer, they can't forsee every computer permutation in advance to some extent). Often the "bug" is just the user not having the correct proceedure for install or has in some way mangled a setting. Just this morning, I finally found out why my computer was throwing out emails with attachments. I wrongly accused my Panda Anti virus software eh. Turns out it was just a setting under Options in the Tools drop down menu of my email program. So there ya have it. It was me and not the Anti virus. My son tells me the other day, my cd isn't working (play station). After 3 minutes I notice the RCA plug for his unit came partially out. Wasn't the game at all. Your black area ToyImp sounds like you either have a setting fouled, or you have a video setting that isn't correct. You could have a genuine virus or the file was downloaded damaged. Many variables, but odds are you can't blame the program. But further on this "Free" business, I can see a person maybe getting annoyed if the "free" thing caused you "harm". That is why businesses waste lots of money on "insurance". It's also why every program I have ever loaded, comes with a message (which we all seem to casually click right past) stating, if you load this program blah blah blah (you know what I mean). If you loaded Steel Panthers, and it "blew up" your computer, you might have a case (free programs or paid ones). But I don't think there is any reason for Matrix to say or do anything, if their "free" game doesn't run. And further on that, if they elect to do it "all sales final" then they are not even obliged to you in any way if a paid for program won't run on your specific computer. If a program (free or otherwise) has a flaw, they will fix it or not, based solely on whether fixing it (or not) has any monetary worthiness to the company. As it goes, it is common knowledge to the Forum comunity (which is why I know, but I have been here a long time too), that Steel Panthers WaW 7.1 is the final version. The word FINAL is important here. Do NOT "expect" any further work to be done on it, none, not at all. Only a massive and I do mean categorical flaw in a Mega Campaign is likely to draw any sort of interest whatsoever (and even that is not an absolute really). And while that is me just saying it, I highly doubt it's inaccurate.

rich12545 -> (8/3/2002 11:15:50 PM)
There won't be any more upgrades or patches to the main program but they are working on one more for Lost Victories. Then that will be it.

junk2drive -> (8/3/2002 11:19:03 PM)
Once apon a time I received a free crock to put Land O Lakes butter tubs in. It arrived with a broken lid. I did not hesitate to ask for a replacement and they did not hesitate to send me a new one. I have been in the auto parts business for 30+ years and this is just good business. I see defects in cars that the manufacturer will not do anything about untill the govt makes them, yet they tell you how great their products are and how the surveys place them at the top of the list. Time will tell.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/3/2002 11:34:07 PM)
You are missing a very important detail Junk2 drive You were given a free replacement lid that was also free. If they can give out one then can give out two. What does that prove, it proves that they don't have to care what they do with the free lids possibly. That wasn't a fair example "good business" that was sending you a freebie to replace a freebie. It cost them as much as the first lid man. My sister has a Honda. She would rather pay a bit more for it now cause the american made cars that are cheaper are also poorly made junk (that's her opinion after buying cars for years, me I have never owned or driven a vehicle so I can't say). She explained in a few years her Honda will still be worth almost what it was when she bought it, while a US made car's worth falls like a rock in water. Also explained that she won't be repairing it as much as it has better parts. So the argument that it's hard to find foreign parts might not have the same relevance. Resently her car's computer went toast. Could have cost her big bucks, but it was just a hair past warrantee I think. They replaced it free. Now that's service. But they were not obligated to do it.

GYBLIN -> (8/4/2002 3:23:18 AM)
You know i started this thread with the hope that enough people would hop on the bandwagon and express a want for a Final patch.One that addresses known "bugs" not anything else.Instead we have endless banter about shovels.Am i upset,a little.I said it once ill say it again if Finance is a problem for the patch then charge for it.Who among us wouldnt buy it?We know the game kicks *** or we wouldnt have it on our hardrives this long.Besides lets be honest how much does it cost for someone to sit there at a computer and debug a game?Just the electicity of the computer as far as i can see.Plus time.But i dont think anyone is demanding a timeline.So why not do it?So we will go out and buy the new product?Not me.Not unless i see it out with no bugs.I have enough games that have been abandoned sitting in a little stack on my desk.So ill take a wait and see approach and hope everything goes well with cl.:(

rich12545 -> (8/4/2002 3:38:30 AM)
With 7.1 I haven't seen any bugs. Exactly which ones are you talking about?

Tankhead -> (8/4/2002 4:05:28 AM)
I like to see a few bugs fix also in 7.1, but like David and Paul said it is a done deal. I myself prefer the older version 4.5 to 5.2 but it all comes down to individual taste. There are many version of SP series games and I play them all including the originals. If someone don't like 7.1 play an older version like I do, works for me. ;) 7.1 achieve the most realism in a SP game but at a cost of fun game play, lot of folks want pure realism well 7.1 is the one.

Penetrator -> (8/4/2002 5:02:24 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rich12545 [B]With 7.1 I haven't seen any bugs. Exactly which ones are you talking about? [/B][/QUOTE] I have played this version very little, but I for one have experienced the "zombie" bug that I posted a thread about a few days ago. Also, it looks a bit like the quality ratings have become a little strange. Soviet '41 rating is 60-70 now??? If there are bugs remaining of similar magnitude to the zombie bug, I have no doubt that matrix will issue 7.2, whatever they are saying now.

G_X -> (8/4/2002 7:41:12 AM)
About the Honda: Most American made cars aren't cheaper than most Hondas...Erk, unless you mean Saturns, which I think might be American Made, I forget. Chevrolet, I don't think has an equal-size car to anything Honda has that costs less than that Honda would. I have a 10 year old Chevy Blazer, Stick Shift, and it's got over 150k miles on it. It was taken care of moderately well, when I got it last year, all it needed was new tires, and it's radio was 10 years old, so the antennae had corroded at the connector points, so reception was bad. The Battery was also 4 years old, and hadn't fared as well as the rest of the car. I took it to Chevy, and they replaced the battery cheaper than anywhere else, putting in a good grade DieHard Battery, at my request, they also gave me a discount on replacing the tires. The Radio wasn't the original, the first owner decided to replace it :rolleyes: as soon as he got it, so I had to go somewhere else to get that fixed...but all in all, that Blazer has cost me very little to get into shape, the Brakes are in excellent condition, as is the Drive Train, and the Engine. I'm not saying that your sister is incorrect Les, I'm just stating that it's less dependant on what kind of car, and the company that makes it, for how much repairs will cost, instead it's more dependant on how well you take care of your car, and making sure that you stop a problem before it gets big. My Grandmother's Chevy Malibu is about 5 years old now, and still in great condition, and it's about the same size as a Honda, and I think costs a little more than the closest equivalent, I'm not sure. Just my two cents on it. I highly doubt there will be a 7.2, unless you want to call CL SP:WaW 8.0, there will be no new version of SPWaW.

KG Erwin -> Matrix CAN'T accept money for SPWaW, Gyblin... (8/4/2002 7:42:50 AM)
...that was the legal agreement. The Mega-campaigns were produced independently, so the "for pay" issue didn't apply. The subsequent upgrades for the basic SPWaW code itself were done (by contract) for free downloads. The company is NOT going to offer further SPWaW upgrades--it's over and done with. Now, if you want to go to the other camp producing SP games--well, that's for YOU to decide. The SP Camo group, while a dedicated bunch, lacks some of the graphics expertise that SPWaW exhibits. They also never upgraded THEIR version of Steel Panthers to a Windows-friendly format--it's still a DOS-based game. Other than that, they DO offer a modern-based SP, so try it out. It's would be unfair of me to denigrate another group's games here, so draw your own conclusions. The point is, they offer an alternative vision.

MacCready -> (8/4/2002 7:44:45 AM)
Just to throw alitttle ice on this fire,Matrix made many,many fixes to the spwaw game only to create new problems. This is the nature of old code. Just going to have to live with it. Nothing's perfect. Don't worry,be happy:)) In my opinion they overfixed the game.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/4/2002 7:52:11 AM)
Hmmm this will express the matter better perhaps. I will provide a perfect no bugs whatsoever version of Steel Panthers eh. Just send me $100,000.00 US and I will see you get a copy. Then I will be able to hire a software programmer after buying the needed computer equipment. Please send me the exact bugs you want fixed first though please, it will make the programmer happier.

Penetrator -> (8/4/2002 8:17:49 AM)
I've got a better offer. Send me the source code and I'll do it myself @ no charge. Can't promise it will be perfect, but who can? Seriously, why don't we petition SSI to publish the code? They aren't making money from it that I know of.

KG Erwin -> AHH, There's the rub... (8/4/2002 8:33:12 AM)
...WHO OWNS legal rights to the game code? IF anyone wanted to try to make an open source game, then THIS would NOT be the game. If I understand this correctly, the code to this game was a MAJOR b itch to make modifications to, so making it available to the general public would frankly make for more problems than solutions, if you get my drift.

simulacrum -> Lost Scores Due to Save (8/4/2002 8:38:47 AM)
How about fixing the lost-scores-due-to-save bug in the MCs, for which we all paid. See related thread: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20980

Penetrator -> Re: AHH, There's the rub... (8/4/2002 9:00:53 AM)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by KG Erwin [B] If I understand this correctly, the code to this game was a MAJOR b itch to make modifications to, [/B][/QUOTE] I'm sure it's nasty. At least the zombies bug is easy to fix, as it used to work, and only involves modification to a single variable.

Frank W. -> (8/4/2002 6:17:10 PM)
mmmhhh....SPWAW crashes that oftern?? can�t remember that. it�s very stable. SPMBT runs fine,too although it�s a dos game.... but i must admit i was somewhat dissapointed with "lost vics" MC. thought you got much tank battles on steppes or so. but instead much boring close quarter infantry fighting.... but perhaps this is only at the beginning the case (??) [QUOTE]Originally posted by GYBLIN [B]Ok Guys please dont blast me as whining.i started the thread to see if anyone else out there felt as strong as i do about the situation.I've seen alot of threads about "7.1 crashing" and why does my game go blank when i do x. Respectfuly Gyblin [/B][/QUOTE]:confused:

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