RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (Full Version)

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Q-Ball -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (7/29/2010 7:22:14 PM)

Chickenboy: We'll be fine, I have a two-car garage (Size 6 car port)

Combat Report, Jan 17-18, 1942:

Malaya: We start marching accross the Straits tonight; should be a couple days before we reach the other side. Between the Allied losses on the peninsula, and the evacuations through Medan and Sumatra, I don't expect much oppossition.

Evacs: There is much evidence that Dan is lifting lots of fragments out from the SRA. I know he pulled a bunch of base forces from the PI; I ran into them at Sorong. There are lots of little units on Sumatra; I dropped paras at Langssa, but the fragments are running around them. I sank an AP off Sabang awhile ago and haven't seen a ship since, but I think he is moving them through Port Blair. There are also a pile of Allies OPS losses in PBYs and Do24Ks and other transport types.

Port Hedland and Portland Roads: Occupied

Java: We should take Tjitilap tommorow. The KNIL seems to be content to dig in at Batavia and Soerbaya.

Darwin: We bombed the port again, sinking DD VAMPIRE, which had fled there from the Arafura Sea

Luganville: Will be occupied in a few days, along with Noumea; both appear virtually empty.

Clark Field: My biggest problem; another attack came off at 1-2, with no forts at all. We are not making progress; it will take a bunch more attacks like this, and mostly because their supplies will just run out.

I am seriously debating just leaving 1 1/2 divisons and moving on. I'm not delaying the invasion of India to wait for Luzon to fall, so the real question is whether I can do that without the 3 Divisions I would take from Luzon, or not. I am guessing I'll need them, and it's not like the USAFFE can go anywhere.

VACATION: I am heading out. While I am back, please comment on the following:

CEYLON: What would your suggestion be for tactical landing on Ceylong? Where to land? What are the Allied CD gun dispositions?

INDIA: Should I simultaneously land at Vizingapatam? Or not? I could land a smallish force and start to create some space for the main body.

SOUTH PACIFIC: How far should I go in this direction? I am not going to send alot of ground troops that way, probably no more than I have already (2 Inf Regts, 1 Bde, 1 Tank Regt, some Nav GD). But the Allies seem to not have reinforced anything. Should I keep gobbling up islands for the heck of it?

CARRIERS: Should I bring ALL CVs into the Bay of Bengal, or just KB Jr (about 290 planes worth)



terje439 -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (7/29/2010 7:45:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

CARRIERS: Should I bring ALL CVs into the Bay of Bengal, or just KB Jr (about 290 planes worth)


I had an opponent bring KB Jr towards Ceylon, it was a field day for me, I kept my ships within LBA cover, three Hurricane squadrons set on 100% LRCap and those few remaining Swordfish I had, all Brit CVs escorted by BBs, CAs, CLs and DDs.

Result:
One Jap flattop sunk, remaining badly damaged.
Brit CVs damaged but nothing major (10-15% sys), one BB at 50% sys, rest at around 15% sys.

So I would say if/when you head that way, go in heavy.
Just my two cents anyway.

Terje



Smeulders -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (7/29/2010 8:09:48 PM)

Mini-KB would have a very hard time against Ceylon, so bringing in KB to suppress the Island is probably needed.

Landings could go in against any base really, Colombo is the most important base, and the clear terrain makes it so that it could easily be taken if garrisoned too lightly. Of course, it might just as well be the most defended base on the Island, in which case the clear terrain is a liability, your troops might be pushed back into the sea before you can unload fully. There is also a fort with CD guns from the start. Trimacolee seems like the standard route, it has CD guns and jungle terrain, it's probably guarded well, then again it's the second base on the Island and once taken it will serve well. The Southern base is probably lightly guarded, but there are only small roads leading out of there, so there is time to reorganize the defence after you take the base. The Northern base is as good as the Southern one, but has better road access, probably lightly guarded as well. The main drawback is that it might be in range of additional airfields in India (probably plane-less when you invade, but a prepared player will have aviation support ready). Also might be harder to get to undetected.

As for additional landings, I'm not quite sure. Vizingapatam is probably lightly defended, but you have no support except for your carriers. You must make absolutely sure you take the airfields quickly or you will get into trouble. Even if the bases are lightly defended, troops can quickly be railed to the area from whichever staging area the Allies have.



Capt. Harlock -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (7/29/2010 8:20:54 PM)

quote:

SOUTH PACIFIC: How far should I go in this direction? I am not going to send alot of ground troops that way, probably no more than I have already (2 Inf Regts, 1 Bde, 1 Tank Regt, some Nav GD). But the Allies seem to not have reinforced anything. Should I keep gobbling up islands for the heck of it?


I'm inclined to say yes. The further you can advance the line, the further the Allies have to push it back, and the longer it will take them. Also, you'll find it easier to sink Allied merchantmen as more and more of the sea lane comes under your aircraft and submarines.



Alfred -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (7/29/2010 8:28:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


I am seriously debating just leaving 1 1/2 divisons and moving on. I'm not delaying the invasion of India to wait for Luzon to fall, so the real question is whether I can do that without the 3 Divisions I would take from Luzon, or not. I am guessing I'll need them, and it's not like the USAFFE can go anywhere.

VACATION: I am heading out. While I am back, please comment on the following:

CEYLON: What would your suggestion be for tactical landing on Ceylong? Where to land? What are the Allied CD gun dispositions?

INDIA: Should I simultaneously land at Vizingapatam? Or not? I could land a smallish force and start to create some space for the main body.

SOUTH PACIFIC: How far should I go in this direction? I am not going to send alot of ground troops that way, probably no more than I have already (2 Inf Regts, 1 Bde, 1 Tank Regt, some Nav GD). But the Allies seem to not have reinforced anything. Should I keep gobbling up islands for the heck of it?

CARRIERS: Should I bring ALL CVs into the Bay of Bengal, or just KB Jr (about 290 planes worth)


A few preliminary comments made prior to looking at the map and OOB.

I strongly support your idea to not delay the move on India - provided you keep Luzon and the rest of the Phillipines cut off from resupply. The only immediate disadvantage to this course of action is that you would need to keep sufficient air power in the Phillipines to maintain the blockade. This air power would not be available for operations in India. However that is not a really significant factor because your initial Indian lodgement will only be supported by naval air power and by the time you had significant IJA air operating in India, your IJN air assets would have neutralised the local Allied airpower (also see comments below).

Ceylon

With the at start Allied dispositions on Ceylon only Colombo is well garrisoned. That base, IIRC does not have the best terrain for defensive purposes. Nonetheless I would not land on Colombo. IIRC, Trincomalee starts off with only a CD unit for a garrison. Provided it is not reinforced by more than a bde, it would be a tempting landing site because of its port size and denial of its defensive terrain for an Allied last stand. I would also view the proximity of Trincomalee to Allied airpower from Madras would IMHO be an attractive bonus as it would provide your IJN airpower an opportunity to decimate the local Allied airpower (see comments above about Phillipines airpower)

India

I would not dissipate the initial landing forces. Your IJN airpower would be spread out too weakly to cover both a Ceylon and Indian mainland invasion simultaneously. I would aim for a quick destruction of Allied forces on Ceylon ( I assume from your posting that your number one Indian objective is the capture of Ceylon). With Ceylon under total Japanese control by the end of February 1942, the destruction of Allied units there and the timetable of scheduled Allied reinforcements to India (some landing at Aden and needing to be transported to India) would still leave most of the mainland ports (excluding the Bengali ports) weakly garrisoned.

South Pacific

As you have only minimal forces operating in the area, provided none are needed for operations in India/Phillipines I would gobble up vacant Allied islands but not garrison them. Force your opponent to recon to discover that they are vacant and therefore ripe for reconquest. Note that even without reinforceing Fiji, the at start Fijian garrison would provide a strong roadblock to an invasion using your current in theatre forces, hence I would not move at all in the direction of Fiji. I would however recommend that you capture and develop (but not necessarily garrison), up to a size level 1 port, the dot base near Noumea which produces resources. That would complement and increase the economic value of capturing the main island of New Caledonia.

Carriers

At least until Ceylon is captured, the safest course of action would be to concentrate your carriers to operate in the vicinity for the following reasons.

(a) you will have kept some IJA air back in the Phillipines to to maintain the blockade over there therefore you need to cover their absence with IJN air
(b) you don't know where the USN carriers are. Were they (together with local Allied LBA) to tangle with the baby KB you would be at a tactical disadvantage
(c) in February/March 1942 you have nothing to fear from Allied carrier raids in the Pacific taking advantage of the absence of the KB
(d) with KB and mini KB together, once the initial Ceylon lodgement is made successfully, from a patrol position between Ceylon and the Maldives, you would have an opportunity to send one of them along the Indian west coast in search of any troop convoys sailing from Aden to reinforce India (or resupply convoys from Cape Town/Abadan)

Alfred



Tone -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (7/30/2010 2:03:56 AM)

Ceylon in Japanese hands is a major strategic roadblock for an Allied Player, as the Island sits across the sea route to the Bay of Bengal, and also can interdict the route south into the Indian Ocean. I concur with Alfred that your operations against Ceylon and India should be succession for reasons listed below.

The first reason is if your opponent has reinforced the 2 Indian Brigades already on Ceylon you will need 2 at a minimum, and ideally 3 divisions of infantry to have guaranteed force superiority. The Allies have the 18th infantry division, and 2 armored brigade groups as early reinforcements to deploy on the Island. The Allied Player could also choose to station the 6th or 7th Australian divisions on Ceylon until more British or Indian unit came available.

The second reason is that your heavy naval forces would need to refuel and rearm after the Ceylon operation. Considering the British have a number of R class battleships in the area it is conceivable that your battleships would have been in action. If your battleships need rearming without a large port available, you will have to send your battleships to Singapore. You cannot use Rangoon with extra naval support as it is a river port.

The advantage of holding Ceylon when you land on the Indian Deccan Coast is that it guards your seaborne flank with the airpower you base there. You also have a large port to base you heavy warships on, therefore giving you the advantage of local sea control, as the British have to project their sea power from the west coast Indian ports.



Jaroen -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (7/30/2010 11:33:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Combat Report, Jan 17-18, 1942:

Clark Field: My biggest problem; another attack came off at 1-2, with no forts at all. We are not making progress; it will take a bunch more attacks like this, and mostly because their supplies will just run out.

I am seriously debating just leaving 1 1/2 divisons and moving on. I'm not delaying the invasion of India to wait for Luzon to fall, so the real question is whether I can do that without the 3 Divisions I would take from Luzon, or not. I am guessing I'll need them, and it's not like the USAFFE can go anywhere.

VACATION: I am heading out. While I am back, please comment on the following:

CEYLON: What would your suggestion be for tactical landing on Ceylong? Where to land? What are the Allied CD gun dispositions?

INDIA: Should I simultaneously land at Vizingapatam? Or not? I could land a smallish force and start to create some space for the main body.

SOUTH PACIFIC: How far should I go in this direction? I am not going to send alot of ground troops that way, probably no more than I have already (2 Inf Regts, 1 Bde, 1 Tank Regt, some Nav GD). But the Allies seem to not have reinforced anything. Should I keep gobbling up islands for the heck of it?

CARRIERS: Should I bring ALL CVs into the Bay of Bengal, or just KB Jr (about 290 planes worth)



Just putting in some minor remarks concerning the PI and India/Ceylon strategy.

From playing the allies mainly I found Ceylon to be of minor importance regarding the defense of India/Bengal. It's main purpose is being a giant jump off point for Burma/Malaya/SRA shipping. Without possession of said territory it's not essential to the Allied war effort. What is essential are the railway connections to Bengal and other parts. If you want to conquer Bengal quick and easy I think you need to make sure to block access to that area rather quickly. Isn't Bengal a prime target because of it's high value bases, it's industries, ports/AF's and later on the good defensable river crossings?

Of course Ceylon is also home base to the British Naval Forces but you won't deny it's use by just taking Ceylon. I'd guess the Allies will preserve their forces and flee. Although that would require some serious threat like the KB. This will render Ceylon an empty house to be taken at leisure. If you do go for Ceylon I guess you'd do it while still enjoying the Japanese fast landing bonus. This allows you to pick landing points without large ports and so offering targets without defenses like Jaffna/Koggala. If the Allies do chose to defend Ceylon with a few extra brigades or even divisions it will be a very hard nut to crack. Too hard if you want to do it quick and easy. But consider yourself lucky because those forces won't be present on mainland India. Could you get intelligence on the allied defense on Ceylon?

The British land forces in India grow quickly in early 1942 and the railways allow for speedy transport of them to the places needed. I believe you'd be happy later on with choosing to go for the main India targets at the earliest. British airpower isn't (as in no power) in the first quarter of the year which allows you to build up a few strong AF's at crucial areas (NE, E and S) to counter British shipping South of India, supporting offensives and protect your main bases.

Regarding the PI. How do you rate the offensive strength of the remaining allied forces? Personally I regard Manilla/Bataan and it's port to be the main target on Luzon. Without it the allies are stuck without resupply options and you benefit from the opposite situation. But you do need to maintain forces strong enough to resist the allies from breaking out. The rest will be very useful in India like others suggested already.

BTW: I tried the same thing playing Japan against the AI but failed because I underestimated the required speed and Allied resistance. And not being the logistics/organizing man it takes!? After June '42 the British airpower/land forces will be capable of getting a draw against yours without you taking countermeasures. But I guess you know that already.

Good luck!



Nemo121 -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (7/31/2010 1:34:15 PM)

Personally, I wouldn't bother with Ceylon.

If you take out the RN you can amphibiously land around Madras quite easily by detouring around Ceylon out of range of LBA. If I were you I'd land in the south with a view to taking Calcutta and that region and cutting off the lines of communication to Burma and then I'd begin the long march north and westward towards Madras and Delhi.

As you get closer to Madras and his forces begin to stream into coastal fortresses I'd hit him with a large landing force designed to take Madras or that other large city a few hundred miles south of it by coup de main. Base Netties on either of those bases and you'll prevent those additional divisions from landing in India ( since those divisions come in at Aden if I'm not mistaken they need transport into India and Netties should sink those transports ). At that point you can close the jaws of your forces and crush the Indian forces on the subcontinent, taking it all.

At that point in time you should have more than enough time to land a few thousand AV in Ceylon as you deploy the SRA forces not needed for the garrisoning of India back into the DEI/Pacific. Until then Ceylon can be ignored.


Obviously this all changes if you aren't looking to knock India entirely out of the war but if you aren't looking to knock it entirely out of the war you shouldn't be sending a single troop there, IMO.



vettim89 -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (7/31/2010 4:31:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Personally, I wouldn't bother with Ceylon.

If you take out the RN you can amphibiously land around Madras quite easily by detouring around Ceylon out of range of LBA. If I were you I'd land in the south with a view to taking Calcutta and that region and cutting off the lines of communication to Burma and then I'd begin the long march north and westward towards Madras and Delhi.

As you get closer to Madras and his forces begin to stream into coastal fortresses I'd hit him with a large landing force designed to take Madras or that other large city a few hundred miles south of it by coup de main. Base Netties on either of those bases and you'll prevent those additional divisions from landing in India ( since those divisions come in at Aden if I'm not mistaken they need transport into India and Netties should sink those transports ). At that point you can close the jaws of your forces and crush the Indian forces on the subcontinent, taking it all.

At that point in time you should have more than enough time to land a few thousand AV in Ceylon as you deploy the SRA forces not needed for the garrisoning of India back into the DEI/Pacific. Until then Ceylon can be ignored.


Obviously this all changes if you aren't looking to knock India entirely out of the war but if you aren't looking to knock it entirely out of the war you shouldn't be sending a single troop there, IMO.


I have never understood why Ceylon is not considered to be a valid target by so many. While it may be true that in the long run it cannot be held, taking it and holding it for even a few months can be a real problem for the Allied player. You basically can control all traffic heading into and out of the BoB with Netties from there and use it as a forward sub base to be able to slow the movement of troops and supplies from the off map areas.
I would say that taking Ceylon is as likely as any other course of action to slow the Allied counteroffensive into Burma.

I do not believe that the Allied player can ignore Ceylon if it is taken. That means a counterinvasion that likely will be costly even if succesful. I am not saying that this can win the game for the JFB but that it can take some heat off Burma and to a certain extent Malaya and the DEI. The large ports on Ceylon will allow rearmament of any ship in the IJN too. You could take it with a large force and then lift out the ID's and replace them with RGT's or Naval Guard units.

Just one man's opinion



Nemo121 -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (7/31/2010 4:46:22 PM)

Since I'm quoted I'll reply.... I don't think Ceylon is not worth taking BUT if you are focussed on taking all of India then it is, IMO, a diversion of effort and resources to take Ceylon before you have subdued the rest of India. It is a matter of phasing and intention.

Ceylon is a nice target for a spoiling attack or a strategy of limited engagement on the Indian front but if one is trying to take all of India then one needs to focus one's IJA strength ruthlessly on the mainland of India and not divert several hundred AV to Ceylon for several weeks of crucial time. I think you may not have understood that distinction implicit in my post. I probably wasn't clear enough that I was talking about Ceylon within the context of a strategy designed to take India out of the war in its entirety.



vettim89 -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (7/31/2010 4:53:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Since I'm quoted I'll reply.... I don't think Ceylon is not worth taking BUT if you are focussed on taking all of India then it is, IMO, a diversion of effort and resources to take Ceylon before you have subdued the rest of India. It is a matter of phasing and intention.

Ceylon is a nice target for a spoiling attack or a strategy of limited engagement on the Indian front but if one is trying to take all of India then one needs to focus one's IJA strength ruthlessly on the mainland of India and not divert several hundred AV to Ceylon for several weeks of crucial time. I think you may not have understood that distinction implicit in my post. I probably wasn't clear enough that I was talking about Ceylon within the context of a strategy designed to take India out of the war in its entirety.



My apologies Nemo; I misunderstood. I failed to take your Ceylon comments in proper context. Yes, I would have to agree that if the Japan player's primary axis of attack is into India, then Ceylon should be left for later.

Very intersted to see how far the Allies can be pushed in India. My general feeling is this is pure folly in AE but am anxious to see what happens here. Also, I can figure no better player for Q-Ball to attempt this against than Dan.



Nemo121 -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (7/31/2010 5:02:11 PM)

No worries Vettim, I probably wasn't clear enough that it was an assessment in the context of taking over all of India.

If one only wants to spoil things a bit for the ALlies then I hugely favour invading Ceylon over the concept of invading and taking the region around Calcutta. It is just so much cheaper to take Ceylon than do that and it is much more difficult for the Allied to bypass.


India, I've looked into it and I don't think it should be at all impossible to take India. The crux is, to me, preventing the deployment of the reinforcement divisions to India from Aden. If the Japanese player can do that then taking all of India is doable, if the Japanese player can't then taking India in its entirety isn't possible. Of course, that's the theory, let's see what happens in practice.

I think Canoerebel will be opportunistic in his defence of India ( I think his play is very opportunistic in general - which is a good thing as he'll capitalise on opportunities ) but I amn't sure that he's up to putting a multi-theatre plan into action to save India. I've seen lots of improvisation in his games but not a huge amount of evidence of the sort of long-term, multi-phasic planning that it is going to take to hold India if Q-Ball really does come with everything including the kitchen sink.



Jaroen -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (7/31/2010 5:21:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Personally, I wouldn't bother with Ceylon.

If you take out the RN you can amphibiously land around Madras quite easily by detouring around Ceylon out of range of LBA. If I were you I'd land in the south with a view to taking Calcutta and that region and cutting off the lines of communication to Burma and then I'd begin the long march north and westward towards Madras and Delhi.

As you get closer to Madras and his forces begin to stream into coastal fortresses I'd hit him with a large landing force designed to take Madras or that other large city a few hundred miles south of it by coup de main. Base Netties on either of those bases and you'll prevent those additional divisions from landing in India ( since those divisions come in at Aden if I'm not mistaken they need transport into India and Netties should sink those transports ). At that point you can close the jaws of your forces and crush the Indian forces on the subcontinent, taking it all.

At that point in time you should have more than enough time to land a few thousand AV in Ceylon as you deploy the SRA forces not needed for the garrisoning of India back into the DEI/Pacific. Until then Ceylon can be ignored.


Obviously this all changes if you aren't looking to knock India entirely out of the war but if you aren't looking to knock it entirely out of the war you shouldn't be sending a single troop there, IMO.



From the way the game map is turned it may be unclear what you mean with said directions. Madras is in the South of India and Bengal in the North-East. As you describe the proposed strategy it appears you are using game map directions and not the 'real life' directions. To make it even more confusing you later mention another city South of Madras.

Am I right assuming you propose a landing North of Ceylon on the East coast of India? And from that point on moving towards Bengal (Calcutta) in the North-East and South towards Madras? Later to change direction towards the West coast for blocking Aden traffic and also moving towards Delhi from the North-East?

Can the Japanese muster enough forces to do a two-pronged assault on India?



Mistmatz -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (7/31/2010 5:53:02 PM)

I agree with Nemo's assessment. If you want all of India Ceylon is not the most important target. The most important thing IMO is to prevent (or control - if you want some more VPs) allied flow of troops into the theater. This being said I'd follow a two-fold strategy.

a) Cut off Burma by seizing the area around Calcutta.
b) Get a Nettie base ASAP to cover Bombay and Karachi.
c) Use KB to render the RN useless.

While a) speaks for tiself, b) might require an additional landing on Indias west coast for reason of speed. Enough AV to hold an AF4 base until the troops from your main landing site can relief would be neccessary. Alternatively I'd consider a massive thrust of japanese armor to split the sub-continent in two and reach one of those possible bases in the west. This would need to be done as fast as possible. Think Blitzkrieg, but thats probably true for the whole operation.
With KB present, the RN can't do much from their bases in Ceylon. Later Netties from the main landing area can render the islands bases too dangerous. That is why Ceylon is not of strategic importance and can (should!) be taken at will once the flow in, or out of India is under control. The importance of Ceylon increases sharply when Japan is on the defence in this theater.


EDIT: Does using a), b) and c) make my strategy threefold rather than two-fold? [8D]



vettim89 -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (7/31/2010 5:58:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

No worries Vettim, I probably wasn't clear enough that it was an assessment in the context of taking over all of India.

If one only wants to spoil things a bit for the ALlies then I hugely favour invading Ceylon over the concept of invading and taking the region around Calcutta. It is just so much cheaper to take Ceylon than do that and it is much more difficult for the Allied to bypass.


India, I've looked into it and I don't think it should be at all impossible to take India. The crux is, to me, preventing the deployment of the reinforcement divisions to India from Aden. If the Japanese player can do that then taking all of India is doable, if the Japanese player can't then taking India in its entirety isn't possible. Of course, that's the theory, let's see what happens in practice.

I think Canoerebel will be opportunistic in his defence of India ( I think his play is very opportunistic in general - which is a good thing as he'll capitalise on opportunities ) but I amn't sure that he's up to putting a multi-theatre plan into action to save India. I've seen lots of improvisation in his games but not a huge amount of evidence of the sort of long-term, multi-phasic planning that it is going to take to hold India if Q-Ball really does come with everything including the kitchen sink.



I 100% concur. Dan tends to be a "all my eggs in one basket" kind of guy. He also tends to be very flexible. So he is not likely to keep pushing in a direction if it is not bearing fruit but also is less likely to be attempting a multiprong attack. While he is certainly capable of doing some bold, unconvention moves, one wonders if he capable of dividing his forces to adequate apply pressure across the map. We shall see.



anarchyintheuk -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (8/2/2010 7:37:53 PM)

I think CR not using a multipronged attack in his prior games may be more circumstance and less design. In his game against Miller it was a long time before KB was reduced to a less than fleet-in-being counterforce, given CR's own cv losses. Let's face it, irl if KB hadn't been suffered the losses it did at Midway, it's doubtful the US could have employed a two/multi pronged advance either until deep into '44 or so. Considering how ineffective attritioning the IJNAAF/IJAAF appears to be, the only useful goal of the allies is flattening IJN cv hulls. Just my $.02.



JohnDillworth -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (8/2/2010 7:58:26 PM)

quote:

the only useful goal of the allies is flattening IJN cv hulls. Just my $.02.

and not an easy task if the IJN does not split it's forces, keeps it's training up, and does not lose many in battle. If you count their CVL's and CVE they can keep pace with the USN until late 43, and even then beat them on experience and better aircraft until that point. The "historical number of aircraft" really keeps the USN hamstrung until late 42.



crsutton -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (8/2/2010 11:02:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Since I'm quoted I'll reply.... I don't think Ceylon is not worth taking BUT if you are focussed on taking all of India then it is, IMO, a diversion of effort and resources to take Ceylon before you have subdued the rest of India. It is a matter of phasing and intention.

Ceylon is a nice target for a spoiling attack or a strategy of limited engagement on the Indian front but if one is trying to take all of India then one needs to focus one's IJA strength ruthlessly on the mainland of India and not divert several hundred AV to Ceylon for several weeks of crucial time. I think you may not have understood that distinction implicit in my post. I probably wasn't clear enough that I was talking about Ceylon within the context of a strategy designed to take India out of the war in its entirety.



I am with Nemo on this one. If you are going to attack the Indian mainland, it has to be with everything you got and with the idea of taking India out of the war.

However, I have always felt that if you do not want to try and take out India, (no easy task) Then a quick rush to take Celyon is a viable option. Thing is, if you get there early the Indian/British army/air force is just too weak and any unit sent to defend Celyon is very possibly going to get captured. Not to mention the three carriers that get cancelled. Once you take it, it is easily held well into 1943 as the Allied airforce remains very short of aircraft and there are virtually no amphibious capable ships in all of the SE Asian theater. Timing is everything but the trick would be to eventually do a staged bug out just like you would if you took Darwin.



Q-Ball -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (8/3/2010 2:18:44 PM)

Checking in on vacation, this is a great discussion! You guys are making me think. I agree with alot of the comments, and I will have an important decision to make shortly, as soon as Singapore falls (which should be about Jan 20 in game terms). Once that happens, I need to re-prep all those units. Where are they going?

Ceylon v India is an important question. Noone has tried a full-out invasion of India yet, so there isn't a guide.

I do agree with one thing: An initial landing on India probably has to include a very deep landing all the way close to Bombay/Karachi to set-up Betty cover over those ports. I haven't scouted that yet, but if you can't stop the Allies from moving troops in, you can't stop them period. In fact, you really need to cover the entire coast, because the Allies can send convoys from any point off the map.

Is there still a theater transfer feature right to Karachi? If so, doesn't that completely bypass a sea-borne route?



Grfin Zeppelin -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (8/3/2010 3:04:32 PM)

A fake movement towards Hawaii might also help. The longer you can cover your intentions the better and a "lights out" at Midway for example should realy make him nervous about Hawaii.



Jaroen -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (8/4/2010 1:58:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Checking in on vacation, this is a great discussion! You guys are making me think. I agree with alot of the comments, and I will have an important decision to make shortly, as soon as Singapore falls (which should be about Jan 20 in game terms). Once that happens, I need to re-prep all those units. Where are they going?

Ceylon v India is an important question. Noone has tried a full-out invasion of India yet, so there isn't a guide.

I do agree with one thing: An initial landing on India probably has to include a very deep landing all the way close to Bombay/Karachi to set-up Betty cover over those ports. I haven't scouted that yet, but if you can't stop the Allies from moving troops in, you can't stop them period. In fact, you really need to cover the entire coast, because the Allies can send convoys from any point off the map.

Is there still a theater transfer feature right to Karachi? If so, doesn't that completely bypass a sea-borne route?



Hey, shouldn't you be 'away on holiday'? [8D]

Another issue to take into account with the conquest of India is the need to garrisson the cities. Aside from all your attacking forces you'll need some small occupation units with you. In total that could be around 500 AV or more. It just adds to the already heavy demand on available forces.

And the second note at the same tune is that stated allied reinforcement of India when it gets attacked. What extra forces for the allies are put in play with the India assault???

Taking that all in mind, do you or someone else have an estimate of the total Japanese forces required and the forces available?

As a side note I believe it's fair not to push that Aden/Abadan - Karachi connection too much. Wouldn't it be true the British could have chosen for an alternate route via Iraq/Iran?! That route is not available in the game so it wouldn't be totally historically right to completely block all entries.

Just my 2 cts.



crsutton -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (8/4/2010 8:00:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


Is there still a theater transfer feature right to Karachi? If so, doesn't that completely bypass a sea-borne route?



No, a lot of units do arrive at cities in India. I won't tell you which ones or what cities out of fairness to CR but plenty come in that way. However, just as many come in from Aden, Mombassa, Cape Town and have to be shipped to India. I think it would be hard to interdict them as the Allied player has lots of options to redirect them. Worst case is he sends them to the US and then on to the Pacific via the Panama Canal but it is an option. All. Off map movement is probably the most brilliant feature of AE over WITP. It changes the game dramatically and removes the finite edges of the old WITP map.

What I am not clear on is what happens to reinforcements if you take the particular city that they are due to arrive in. Do they come on elsewhere or not at all?



witpqs -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (8/4/2010 10:09:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

What I am not clear on is what happens to reinforcements if you take the particular city that they are due to arrive in. Do they come on elsewhere or not at all?


Air groups, yes. Ground units, I don't know.



Alfred -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (8/5/2010 6:02:14 AM)

In my last post on this thread (post #65) I specifically addressed, in a preliminary manner, four issues which Q-Ball asked for forum commentary.

In this post I want to revisit the comments I made in my post #35 as they apply to the forthcoming Indian operation. Ideally, those earlier comments would have guided the choice of target for Phase II operations. That Q-Ball has clearly decided on his Phase II target is a matter, IMHO, which could have benefited from further discussion prior to the decision was made to choose India. However how India is tackled is IMHO a matter which would benefit greatly from taking into account my comments of post #35. I say this because notwithstanding the very high regard I have for Nemo’s assessment of the best way to handle the Indian operations, I do not share his view that his approach is necessarily the best course of action in this instance.

Before deciding on the best plan, Q-Ball needs to determine the strategic rationale as to why he is going to India and then plan accordingly. Within the context of achieving a VP victory, there are three major strategic reasons for moving to India in Phase II:

(a) possession of bases
(b) Allied kills
(c) strengthening of the Japanese economic base

These three rationales are not mutually exclusive but one should be the predominant strategy because very different plans, in terms of force structure and landing sites etc, result from them.

Possession of Bases

Most bases in India multiply their VPs on a 5:1 ratio (Japanese:Allied). Eight bases provide a much higher ratio to Japan, two on Ceylon and six on the mainland. These bases are:

Colombo 25:2
Trincomalee 25:2

Bombay 25:1
Dacca 25:1
Karachi 25:1
Madras 25:1

Calcutta 50:1
Delhi 50:1

Based on this strategy, the optimal plan would be to land in Bengal, capture Calcutta and all the bases on the road to Delhi. Once these were accomplished, provided sufficient assets remained, a drive to capture the major ports of Bombay and Madras would ensue. Both an invasion of Ceylon and a drive to capture Karachi and central Indian bases would ensue only if there were no significant Allied forces left.

Allied Kills

Adopting this strategy leads to a quite different plan because there are several discrete and separate targets to garner VPs from. These are:

(a) the destruction of Allied capital ships being “built” in Ceylon
(b) the cutting off from its Indian supply sources and subsequent destruction of the Allied army in Burma/Assam
(c) the destruction in detail of the three Indian land commands

There is a fourth Allied “kill” which whilst it does not directly generate VPs, nonetheless can contribute greatly to weakening the Allied position worldwide. I refer to blockading Aden and preventing the despatch of troop convoys from there to on map bases until May 1943 when the Mediterranean route is opened.

Adopting this strategy requires quite different invasion zones compared to those if Base Possession is adopted. Under this strategy, Q-Ball would need to launch several different campaigns, probably in sequential order, as follows:

(i) a raid on Ceylon with the objective of capturing Colombo in order to sink the capital ships and destruction of the trapped Allied LCUs on the island. A quick departure from Ceylon would be a feasible option
(ii) to trap the Burma army, a shallow envelopment is required with a landing in Bengal and thence a drive to the map east to capture Ledo and the other Assam bases before the Burma army is able to retreat back to India. One advantage of this operation is that the key Indian industrial zone (see below for more details) would be captured and the Japanese forces would be self sustaining from local Indian supply sources
(iii) the three Indian land commands are concentrated in the environs of Bombay, Calcutta and Madras. Whilst there is a decent railway network in India, it is not that difficult to actually cut the lines between the different commands. Particularly vulnerable to this course of action are the forces concentrated, map west of the line Madras-Bangalore-Mangalore. A landing at Vizagapatnam (clear terrain) and the adjacent Cocanada (jungle) with a quick drive to Warangal (jungle) via Bezwada secures the railroad “passes” and anchors them on defensible terrain. Once the pocket is reduced Japan has the choice to drive in force north on Bombay, northeast on Cawnpore or east on Calcutta whilst the Allied player is required to maintain dispersed forces to safeguard against these options

One of the reasons why I depart from Nemo’s plan is because I don’t believe that a land capture of Karachi or Bombay (to allow for Netty strongholds) can effectively blockade Aden. The only true way of killing troop convoys from Aden is by using Japanese sea power. This is because troop convoys from Aden to Karachi enter the map at hex 36,5. This leaves them with a run of only 6 hexes to Karachi. With appropriate selection of ships, these TFs can make the run to Karachi in one turn. In order to lengthen the run in and thus force a two day exposure to air attack, Japan would need to have permanently on station two surface combat TFs at 39,7 and 39,8. Under these circumstances retention of Colombo as a rearming base for the fleet would suffice and reduce the garrison requirements for the IJA.

Strengthening the Japanese economic base

Most Indian bases have at least 20 Resource Centres, sufficient to feed the local Light Industry. However for the Allied player India presents some significant industrial weaknesses.

Foremost is the need to import, in significant quantities, fuel to feed Heavy Industry. A point which most Allied players may be unaware of is that even with oil imports, much of India’s Heavy Industry in the interior is starved of fuel. This is a problem which will also affect Japan, particularly as its capacity to import fuel into India is much less than the Allies who have the nearby off map Abadan base.

The second great weakness is that unlike Light Industry which is well dispersed, the Indian Heavy Industry is primarily concentrated in the following cities:

Calcutta 520
Asansol 200
Jamshedpur 110
Madras 140
Bombay 260

The first three cities above are both close together and close to the major Indian fuel production base, Ledo.

When you also take into account that Calcutta has 84 Manpower as well as 500 Light Industry and is well supplied with resources from nearby Asansol, Jamshedpur and Sambalpur, by far the major economic gain for Japan results in capturing the Bengali (and Assam for its oil/fuel) region. Only limited economic gains accrue from capturing much more of India.

Conclusion

The above comments should suffice to show importance of first deciding why Q-Ball is moving to India. Only when that is determined can the appropriate plan be prepared.

The difficulties I have with Nemo’s plan can be summarised as follows:

• Garrison requirements impeding Japanese future flexibility
• A successful Allied rearguard action buying time for critical Allied operations elsewhere
• India providing considerable additional supply from Light Industry but not the sought after Heavy Industry points “in the bank”
• Blockade of Aden requires sea, not air assets
• Escape of Burma Army

Nemo’s plan is good and I am certain that he has gone through the necessary assessments. It is just that I do not believe anyone should ever adopt a third party’s plan without themselves doing the necessary homework. Adoption of a second best plan, particularly if its nuances are well understood, is IMHO always preferable if it better suits the temperament and capabilities of a player.

Alfred



Wirraway_Ace -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (8/5/2010 2:49:17 PM)

On the subject of Ceylon, I would be very concerned about a plan that leaves a major enemy fleet base (or two) astride your SLOCs supporting the Empire's main operational Theater.

Unless house rule prevent it, there is no reason that the USN can't reinforce the RN in the Indian Ocean.

Even destroyer squadrons rearming and refueling from Ceylon bases can be a nightmare for rapid and safe movement of troops to the Theater.   They can hide out in the vastness of the Indian Ocean and then dart in to attack convoys sighted by patrol aircraft also operating from Ceylon. 

Don't the forget submarines.  Picture 2 Dutch and  2 USN S-boats divisions (approximately 30 boats in total) refueling and rearming from Colombo. They would never be in port long enough for you to get a shot at them; needed significant repairs would be handled at Perth or Cape Town.  Again, patrol aircraft operating from Ceylon would greatly enhance their effectiveness.

While it may be possible to suppress and bypass the Ceylon bases for the initial phase of the campaign, it is going to have to be dealt with quickly or it will slow the tempo of the IJA advance through direct or indirect interdiction of the movement of reinforcements.

I also agree with Alfred's assessment of the difficulties with trying to interdict the Aden to Karachi convoy route by air alone.



Q-Ball -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (8/12/2010 2:06:55 AM)

Part of the problem with going on a week's vacation is that you come back to a pile of work: This is why my updates are slow. Canoe and I played a couple turns while I was on holiday, but it's been one-a-day since my return. Not CR's fault, I blame my boss. Oh well, better too much work than not enough these days.....

Anyway, back to the war....

INDIA ASSESSMENT: The comments here are excellent. I agree with the principal: Ceylon would be the conservative choice, as I would almost certainly bag the island and capture everyone on it. INDIA itself is riskier; much riskier. Failure to knock it out is a failure to win.

So, can I knock out India? Is it possible in AE?

AVAILABLE BRITS: The Kempetai has provided me with detailed reinforcement schedules of the Allied Forces. Most of the Indian Divisions come in as little more than training units; less than full-strength, experience in the 20s, poor morale, and not prepped for anything. In short, about 4 months from being combat effective.

I have marked those incredibly weak Indian Units with a (*), because in reality, you have to add 4 months for them to be worth anything, and that presumes they can train in the city they have prepped for.

AT START FORCES:
2 Divisions in Burma: These Dan seems to be withdrawing in good order
1 Division on Ceylon: Really 3 half-decent Indian Bdes
2 Divisions in India: 7th and 19th, BOTH of which are (*), and don't really count

For the most part in India, British units are tied-up on garrison duty; the Mobile forces are pretty much the Burmese Army plus the 18th UK Division.

REINFORCEMENTS:
Dec: 18th UK Div
Jan 15: 6th Aus Div- A good unit, but could easily go to OZ
Feb 1: 23rd Ind (*)
Feb 15: 7th Aus Div - Ditto on the 6th. Unlikely that BOTH would be deposited in India
Mar 1: 20th Ind(*) + 2 Ind Bde (*)
Apr 1: 2 UK Div (a very good unit)
May 1: 26 Ind + 2 Bdes (these troops are at least trained)
July: 4 More Bdes, including 3 good UK Bdes

So, at the time I land which figures to be late February, at most the Allies will have, I estimate, 4 Combat-Ready divisions on the Indian Subcontinent. I should be able to roll that number easily.

Landing will obviously attract piles of attention; I probably have 2 months, maybe 3, before I start running into US Units, the rest of the AIF, and battle-ready Indian Units that have trained up a bit and filled the TOE. That's about May-June.

Is 60-90 days enough time? Looking at the map, just walking accross India with no opposition appears to be a 60-day affair.

PREVENTING REINFORCEMENTS: Can I isolate India and prevent reinforcement by Sea?

I don't see how I can do this, short of landing on top of Karachi itself. Karachi is so close to the map edge, that a Betty base a few hexes away would only get ONE shot, in Karachi harbor itself. Even if they sink some transports, some unloading would occur, and that's IF the Bettys launch and find the target, which is not 100%. No, I probably need to keep IJN Cruisers within a night's sail to really close it, and that would be mucho difficult to sustain way out there.

So, I have to "RUSH" in 60-90 days. That's it. Probably that's not possible without multiple landings to speed things up and open rail space. Even if I rush it, high probability I'll end up stuck on Karachi or Bombay, urban hexes that won't fall easily. This happened on my only Indian expedition in WITP, though we auto-victoried in that game.

I'm still debating this, but India is a tough nut. An alternative is a landing on Ceylon, and a landing in Northeast India to capture Calcutta and create "Space", but there is no way I could realistically hold either spot without taking India out completely.



Chickenboy -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (8/12/2010 3:34:12 AM)

Q-ball,

Assuming that you DON'T create an auto-victory condition by taking all of India...

Is there one of your approaches that puts you in a better position at 'creating space' that can be held for some time versus the other? In my opinion, this may be the real value of your Indian campaign, particularly should Auto Victory fail.



Q-Ball -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (8/12/2010 4:02:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Q-ball,

Assuming that you DON'T create an auto-victory condition by taking all of India...

Is there one of your approaches that puts you in a better position at 'creating space' that can be held for some time versus the other? In my opinion, this may be the real value of your Indian campaign, particularly should Auto Victory fail.


Good question. Certainly, Ceylon serves as a speed-bump, though I wouldn't garrison it heavily, as anyone there is probably toast in the long-run.

I have to look, maybe it's possible to form a defense line in NE India, but then I would be at risk; there's alot of coastline in my rear in that case.

Combat Report, Jan 19-26, 1942:

Catching up on a few turns of combat. Dan's AAR is constantly at the top of the page, so he must be updating his pretty consistently. More than me at any rate.

Allied Moves: Overall, Dan seems to be pulling a Sir Robin so far. The only serious opposition has been from minor warships; alot of them are older, kind of throwaway ships. Every landing so far in Australia and elsewhere has been unopposed. I will probably just keep going with nothing units until I hit something. At this pace though I'll be landing on the Ross Ice Shelf by April, unless I hit something!

Allied CVs? I haven't seen a one in a month, so they could be anywhere. I am pretty sure Dan isn't going to take on KB directly at this stage, but other than that, I have to be careful; they could pop anywhere.

Southwest Pacific: Efate was captured, and I am building an airstrip there. I landed an Inf Regt at Koumac; as best I can tell, Noumea is still not reinforced, so I guess we'll take it.

KB stumbled on a lone xAKL near Norfolk Island on the 23rd, sinking it. I think that was a picket, so it served it's purpose. With KB certainly found, I sent it back to Truk, where it will then head to the Indian Ocean; with that appearance, Dan will probably stay away from my landings in the New Hebrides, so it served that purpose anyway.

Not sure what I'll do after Noumea is taken. I might jump to Norfolk Island. I could land on Fiji, but my total Combat troops in the SW Pacific is about 400-500 AV in total, so I don't really have combat troops to overcome serious resistance. I'm just seizing space.

Marshalls: I've landed on Tabiteua, which will be built-up. I am prepping some units for Canton, I might land there if there is no sign of the Allies. I don't see a point to get too stretched out; the point is to force Dan to route convoys wide, but that doesn't hurt the Allies that much in the end.

Australia: Port Hedland and Derby fall. I have about 400 AV prepping for Darwin; may or may not be enough. A Nav Gd is about to land at Exmouth. All of this is unopposed.

Coen falls as well, and troops are marching on Cairns. I do expect to find someone there.

Burma: The Allies are evacuating Burma. That is wise, given what I am planning; because of that, my "advance" into Burma was lackidasical, consisting of 33rd Div plus most of the 55th. They are marching north to take what we are given, which should include Magwe. I might run into some Chinese up there.

Malaya: The last attack on Singapore was a 1-2 failure; we did kill alot of Allied troops, but didn't make progress. This is a problem! I noticed my supplies were a bit low, so I am unloading some at Mersing while I recover for another attack.

I expected Sinagpore to fall by now, so this is seriously delaying me!

Java: We crushed 3 units at Tjitilap, taking the base. I am railroading a Bde back to Batavia; with a new division unloading, I think I can start reducing the two cities on Java.

DEI: Elsewhere in the DEI, we are in mop-up mode. Den Passar fell, as well as Waingapu.

TIMETABLE: I am falling behind on my timetable, with these holdups at Luzon and Singapore. I must not have brought enough guys, because Dan is not doing anything special, just moving everyone to those two points. That's the right thing to do though.

I am surprised about Singapore, since we cut-off 3 Bdes, and mauled 2-3 more on our advance. I expected it to be an easier nut.



JohnDillworth -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (8/12/2010 1:53:46 PM)

quote:

INDIA ASSESSMENT: The comments here are excellent. I agree with the principal: Ceylon would be the conservative choice, as I would almost certainly bag the island and capture everyone on it. INDIA itself is riskier; much riskier. Failure to knock it out is a failure to win.

So, can I knock out India? Is it possible in AE?

AVAILABLE BRITS: The Kempetai has provided me with detailed reinforcement schedules of the Allied Forces. Most of the Indian Divisions come in as little more than training units; less than full-strength, experience in the 20s, poor morale, and not prepped for anything. In short, about 4 months from being combat effective.

I have marked those incredibly weak Indian Units with a (*), because in reality, you have to add 4 months for them to be worth anything, and that presumes they can train in the city they have prepped for.

AT START FORCES:
2 Divisions in Burma: These Dan seems to be withdrawing in good order
1 Division on Ceylon: Really 3 half-decent Indian Bdes
2 Divisions in India: 7th and 19th, BOTH of which are (*), and don't really count

For the most part in India, British units are tied-up on garrison duty; the Mobile forces are pretty much the Burmese Army plus the 18th UK Division.

REINFORCEMENTS:
Dec: 18th UK Div
Jan 15: 6th Aus Div- A good unit, but could easily go to OZ
Feb 1: 23rd Ind (*)
Feb 15: 7th Aus Div - Ditto on the 6th. Unlikely that BOTH would be deposited in India
Mar 1: 20th Ind(*) + 2 Ind Bde (*)
Apr 1: 2 UK Div (a very good unit)
May 1: 26 Ind + 2 Bdes (these troops are at least trained)
July: 4 More Bdes, including 3 good UK Bdes

So, at the time I land which figures to be late February, at most the Allies will have, I estimate, 4 Combat-Ready divisions on the Indian Subcontinent. I should be able to roll that number easily.

Landing will obviously attract piles of attention; I probably have 2 months, maybe 3, before I start running into US Units, the rest of the AIF, and battle-ready Indian Units that have trained up a bit and filled the TOE. That's about May-June.

Is 60-90 days enough time? Looking at the map, just walking accross India with no opposition appears to be a 60-day affair.


This is the kind of analysis I should do but never do. Hats of to you and the other players that think this stuff through. I just figure I have massive troop superiority and waltz right in. Goes well for a few weeks and then it starts to bog down. You figured out the reinforcement, the rail network and probably the supplies. The way you describe it it is not as easy as I though. Also, the Brits don't get "plenty" of fighters, but they get enough and they are experienced.

BTW, most of the activity in our opponents forum is chatting about general stuff that probably should go in the regular forums. Plus CR can be a bit "prolific"[:D]



crsutton -> RE: Illinois Yankee in Showa Court (Q-Ball v Canoe) (8/12/2010 5:30:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


[I have marked those incredibly weak Indian Units with a (*), because in reality, you have to add 4 months for them to be worth anything, and that presumes they can train in the city they have prepped for.




One note. I don't think any unit has to be in the actual city that they prepped for in order to train. As long as they are prepped 100% for any location they can be anywhere and will train as long as they are not moving or fighting. This was my experience in China and India. In fact no matter the lumps taken, the Allied player in China should never change the prep destination for any of his units. Better to build them to 100% and train than prep for a new location in my opinion.

However, if you are pushing him hard in India, he will have to use these units in the front lines anyway so they won't be able to train. So, it might not matter. Of course they might gain combat exp but not if you are banging them up and they are taking large losses.



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