RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor (Full Version)

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AW1Steve -> RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor (8/5/2010 2:02:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phanatik

Gee, I express a different opinion, so now I have a "behavior."

Maybe I'll just start another cockup by stating that a lot of individual facts from the Da Vinci Code were correct. Tying them all together is ify.

Ciao


Not because you express a different opinion. If there are 5000 users on this forum, there are 5000 different opinions. The "behavior" is being unable to let it go and let other people have an opinion that is different from yours. It can be seen as "trolling" because it only becomes inflammatory.

The "behavior" looks like this (apologies to Steve [;)] ):



[image]local://upfiles/7870/8D564D84F49D42E88DF5AA8F8DEE904B.jpg[/image]



AND WELL YOU SHOULD!!![:D]

As my CC in booot camp used to say (company commander...Navyees for drill instructor) "Opinions are like A$$h@les, everbody has at least one, and everbody's stinks but yours!". Earthy, but wise (I almost said true![X(][8|])



Kwik E Mart -> RE: The Truth about Pearl Harbor (8/5/2010 5:09:04 PM)

my innner thetan is disturbed by all this...[:(]



Nikademus -> THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE! (8/5/2010 7:59:28 PM)

ack! wrong thread....i meant the OTHER overlong thread....only more fun!



ChickenOfTheSea -> RE: THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE! (8/5/2010 8:07:28 PM)

There is also this.


[image]local://upfiles/29392/6E53D3D885E8475A8D2C891D452B66D1.jpg[/image]



USSAmerica -> I love that movie.... I live that movie... (8/5/2010 8:09:17 PM)

Where's the printer?  [:D]



Kwik E Mart -> RE: THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE! (8/6/2010 6:34:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChickenOfTheSea

There is also this.


[image]local://upfiles/29392/6E53D3D885E8475A8D2C891D452B66D1.jpg[/image]


for my own peace of mind, i'm going to assume this horse died of natural causes...[:(]



ChickenOfTheSea -> RE: THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE! (8/6/2010 7:10:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChickenOfTheSea

There is also this.


[image]local://upfiles/29392/6E53D3D885E8475A8D2C891D452B66D1.jpg[/image]


for my own peace of mind, i'm going to assume this horse died of natural causes...[:(]


Kwik E Mart

In order to make you feel better, I believe the horse was photoshopped into the pic.



Kwik E Mart -> RE: THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE! (8/6/2010 7:12:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChickenOfTheSea


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChickenOfTheSea

There is also this.


[image]local://upfiles/29392/6E53D3D885E8475A8D2C891D452B66D1.jpg[/image]


for my own peace of mind, i'm going to assume this horse died of natural causes...[:(]


Kwik E Mart

In order to make you feel better, I believe the horse was photoshopped into the pic.



yeah, it's one of my favorite movies...
"Looks like you tend to miss a lot of work here."
"Well, I wouldn't exactly say that I MISS work..." [:D]



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE! (8/7/2010 7:13:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

yeah, it's one of my favorite movies...
"Looks like you tend to miss a lot of work here."
"Well, I wouldn't exactly say that I MISS work..." [:D]



"I'm going to show her my 'O-face'"

"I'm going to federal pound-you-up-the-a** prison!!"

I got a million of them. The best movie ever made for anyone who's worked for a corporation. Or owned a stapler.



Schatten -> RE: How to judge Japan's attack without the benefit of hindsight? (8/9/2010 8:55:32 AM)

it was stupid for beginning to not attack Russia (even since they had some Oil Fields and other ressources in Asia, next to Japan too).

Anyway...IF you want SRA so there was anyway no need to attack the US....stupid planning.
Why Pearl and attacking Philippines? there was absolutly no need, Japan dont need them as long there was Peace with US.
Attacking them has only given Rosevelt the excuse to go into War he desperatly look for 3 years as he was not able to go into War without the Pearl Harbour Propaganda.

Except this there were so *easy* way to do it....simply ask Germany to tell the Dutch Puppet Administration to sell the needed Oil and Ressources to Japan for a *low* Price, this would compare the US Embargo nearly full.
Of course the local Durch Gouverment would by most possible denied to fullfill the Order but than the puppet Administration would be simply *ask* Japan to do a police action agains Rebels and it were than help and not War.

Clearly everyone would know the truth and the fact´s but at the peaper it would still look good and would not give US and *legal* reason to open the War, there were no treaties with Dutch (if they were US would clearly go in the War against Germany asap).
Mayby it were even possible to attack Singapore and Britain (as Ally of Germany that was in War with them) and still avoid a War with USA (there were no Treaties of Help betwen the 2 too).

It all would make it at the Paper look more good...good enough so the Peace Movement in the USA would not be crushed as it was after Pearl.

So stupidity and overconfidence at same time and place....anyway its now past.



LoBaron -> RE: How to judge Japan's attack without the benefit of hindsight? (8/9/2010 11:12:13 AM)

The US granted a plan to increase the 5-3-3 ratio in major combatants to 10-5-3 (US-UK-IJN) in 1944 a couple of months
before the war started. (could be that I´m wrong on the latter numbers, I´m at work now so cannot take a look).

Restrictions were already put on Japanese economy as early as 1939, which at that time already relied heavily on imports (IIRC they had to import about
80% of tungsten, rubber and oil from areas such as the DEI´s and the US - at least before the trade embargo was in effect because of
their China adventure).
The US condition for reentering a trade agreement with Japan was retreat to their pre-1937 borders which was deemed unacceptable.
The close distance to the Phillippines which had the potential of growing into a US military bastion soon was a threat to any southern expansion.

It is plausable that they decided to strike now, not later, and to eliminate the US Pac Fleet as a militarey threat even though there were always doubts that
a sustained war could be won. The outlook to try something similar later would have looked even bleaker.

All in all Japan was a country just recently emerging as an industrialized nation but acting like a major power, with many social and economical elements still not far away
from a middle age rural society. Their economy could not sutain their population.
Happened often enough in history that such factors combined ended in war.



LoBaron -> RE: How to judge Japan's attack without the benefit of hindsight? (8/9/2010 12:22:49 PM)

Btw Schatten, they DID attack Russia. And all they got was a bloody nose.



Schatten -> RE: How to judge Japan's attack without the benefit of hindsight? (8/9/2010 10:29:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Btw Schatten, they DID attack Russia. And all they got was a bloody nose.



yep, years bevore and alone so Russia was able to throw everything at them.
nothing to compare with 1941 as Russia was at the end (Russia´s counterattack early 1942 was performed mainly by the forces they have took from far east after the Japanese attack as they have known now they safe from this side...their west army was at this point nearly completly destroyed).

and Philpines were of course a threat but as long there was no War not more....there was no need for this attack it, the whole plan was a epic failure.
If they have tried it with negotations and the tactic against the dutch colonies as i have wrote above they would gain nearly all they have want without big fight if any.

anyway as said its past now...but in germany we say too *if you have such allies as we have had you need no enemy*...this both for WWI and II^^



mike scholl 1 -> RE: How to judge Japan's attack without the benefit of hindsight? (8/9/2010 11:13:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Schatten


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Btw Schatten, they DID attack Russia. And all they got was a bloody nose.



yep, years before and alone so Russia was able to throw everything at them.




Yet both times the Japanese "tried" the Russians before WW II, it was the local Soviet Garrison forces that kicked their teeth in. If the Japs could have somehow arranged to fight the Russians in the Jungles of SE Asia they might have had a chance. On the barren hills and plains of Manchuria the Soviet armor and artillery superiority made the IJA so much "dogmeat"...






Nikademus -> RE: How to judge Japan's attack without the benefit of hindsight? (8/10/2010 3:24:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Btw Schatten, they DID attack Russia. And all they got was a bloody nose.


In terms of Operational objective yes. They however gave as good as they got in terms of casualties despite the material advantage of Russian armor and arty. However even the Japanese themselves had to conceed that they lost the battle based on the fact that the Russians held the contested ground at the close of hostilities.




Alfred -> RE: How to judge Japan's attack without the benefit of hindsight? (8/10/2010 6:21:42 PM)

Let us not downplay too much the Soviet performance. By the tine of the second confrontation in 1939, the Soviet purge had arrived in the Far East.

Alfred



Nikademus -> RE: How to judge Japan's attack without the benefit of hindsight? (8/10/2010 6:31:29 PM)

I wasn't.




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