Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (Full Version)

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Runnersan -> Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/28/2010 7:19:58 PM)

My opponent developed "new" tactic. He puts his Tojo's on max alt, sweep. I tried to counter with Hurricanes on max alt no effect.

My P-40K fighters with experienced pilots are his easy prey. In last fight I lost 7 planes to 0 his.

Is there any method to defend against this type of attack?



Puhis -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/28/2010 7:37:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: runnersan

Is there any method to defend against this type of attack?


No there isn't. Some might say that pilots with high defensive skill will help, but I haven't notice that.

You have to get planes that can fly higher than Tojos...



findmeifyoucan -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/28/2010 7:42:34 PM)

So there might be a glitch in the Air War system it seems. It doesn't matter how good your planes are or how experienced your pilots are. Who ever can fly the highest wins the dog fight. In other words we have unrealistic air to air WWII dog fighting at 40,000 feet. lol



morganbj -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/28/2010 7:44:28 PM)

These arrive very late in the game.

[image]local://upfiles/26136/2B9B273B3000455791D7D3A0C6844824.jpg[/image]



findmeifyoucan -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/28/2010 7:46:33 PM)

Hee, hee. Good point. Roflmao :-)))



Runnersan -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/28/2010 7:51:39 PM)

So the only solution is to call Jedi Knights?

"Please Obi Wan you are my only Hope!!!"






Puhis -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/28/2010 7:54:38 PM)

Or not fly at all...



Runnersan -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/28/2010 7:58:00 PM)

I removed my fighters from this base, but it is not a solution for a long time.

Maybe I should put few squadrons on 1000 as a bait and others on 30000 an maybe those on 30000 can kill Tojos....



findmeifyoucan -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/28/2010 7:58:59 PM)

It's depends in what time period you are in as well. If it is in the first 6 months of the war he gets a big advantage as well over your fighters. You can also try having more than one group for defence so if he comes down to hit lets say your group at 10k feet, your group patroling at 20k feet can hit his group that is dogfighting with your group at 10k feet as he is no longer at 38000 feet now and thus forteited his advantage.



Runnersan -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/28/2010 8:03:32 PM)

I will try this. But risk of loosing good pilots as bait is very high



vaned74 -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/28/2010 8:10:07 PM)

I wonder if one put a low database group numbered squadron at low altitude CAP and then a high numbered group at highest altitude - would the sweepers then drop down to engage the low altitude bait squadron and then get eaten in turn by the high altitude CAP squadron?



Knavey -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/28/2010 8:32:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

These arrive very late in the game.

[image]local://upfiles/26136/2B9B273B3000455791D7D3A0C6844824.jpg[/image]



Ummm...these were pre-war fighters. A LONG time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...



herwin -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/28/2010 8:41:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: runnersan

My opponent developed "new" tactic. He puts his Tojo's on max alt, sweep. I tried to counter with Hurricanes on max alt no effect.

My P-40K fighters with experienced pilots are his easy prey. In last fight I lost 7 planes to 0 his.

Is there any method to defend against this type of attack?


In WWII--unlike today--the high altitude fighters in a sweep were playing a defensive role. (My source is Shaw (1985) Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering, Naval Institute Press. See chapter 9, especially the discussion of the fighter sweep.) The real killing was done by the fighters at low and very low altitude who were covered by the high altitude aircraft. Mid-altitude during a sweep operation was a lethal beaten zone (in infantry terms). So historically, the CAP either fought at high altitude or stayed at low altitude. At low altitude, they had the advantage of seeing the sweepers earlier and much more easily than the sweepers could see them, so they could build up their energy to take them on in a more even fight.

The game is influenced by modern fighter combat, where the energy fight is more important than the angles fight. In WWII, a low wing-loading aircraft fighting at low altitude was not as vulnerable as it is today, and could gain an advantage by remaining at low altitude in target acquisition. (In visual aircraft acquisition, it's much easier to see a target against the sky than against ground clutter.)



herwin -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/28/2010 8:45:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vaned74

I wonder if one put a low database group numbered squadron at low altitude CAP and then a high numbered group at highest altitude - would the sweepers then drop down to engage the low altitude bait squadron and then get eaten in turn by the high altitude CAP squadron?



A combination of CAP or ground alert aircraft at low altitude and a high altitude CAP was the WWII tactic to defend against a sweep threat. The low altitude element was not really bait. Low wing-loading aircraft were at their best at low altitude.



USSAmerica -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/28/2010 8:52:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: vaned74

I wonder if one put a low database group numbered squadron at low altitude CAP and then a high numbered group at highest altitude - would the sweepers then drop down to engage the low altitude bait squadron and then get eaten in turn by the high altitude CAP squadron?



A combination of CAP or ground alert aircraft at low altitude and a high altitude CAP was the WWII tactic to defend against a sweep threat. The low altitude element was not really bait. Low wing-loading aircraft were at their best at low altitude.


He asked if it would work IN THE GAME. [8|]



herwin -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/28/2010 8:55:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: vaned74

I wonder if one put a low database group numbered squadron at low altitude CAP and then a high numbered group at highest altitude - would the sweepers then drop down to engage the low altitude bait squadron and then get eaten in turn by the high altitude CAP squadron?



A combination of CAP or ground alert aircraft at low altitude and a high altitude CAP was the WWII tactic to defend against a sweep threat. The low altitude element was not really bait. Low wing-loading aircraft were at their best at low altitude.


He asked if it would work IN THE GAME. [8|]


I am aware that was what he asked.



Sardaukar -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/28/2010 9:37:23 PM)

You need to have higher exp pilots to counter altitude advantage.

One tactic that may lessen your casualties is so called "split CAP" where you put 2 units in same base to CAP on different altitudes.

One thing I wrote in thread about Sweep vs Escort:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2519677&mpage=7 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Thats again interesting results Sardaukar. :)

Thought it was the other way, but this could depend on aircraft type also, no?


What I think is that is't bit of paper, rock, scissors-situation, where you often have more than one thing stacked against you.

For example, if enemy has better plane (SPD, MVR, Climb, DUR, Armour), it's advantage. Experience and skills are big advantage, altitude is also big advantage.

In some situations, for example, not many tactical decisions make you win the battle. Lets take for example Malaya with Zeroes vs. Buffaloes. Now you are against way better plane with way better pilots. If they also come from above (as any IJ player would unless escorting), you are in world of hurt. No amount of split CAP will offset at least 3 advantages, maybe at least 4 if they also have better Air Leader. It may lower the kill ratio a bit, but Buffaloes are going to get creamed even if numbers are similar. I have no doubt about that numerical advantage skews the results even more.

I tried to have approx. same number of planes engaging in my tests and achieved it with max. +/- 2 plane difference. But if enemy also has double number planes with all those advantages...

In situation like that, I suggest not to fight but pull back and train your pilots so that at least skill levels are comparable before engaging. Sometimes there are no other options but to fight, though. On the other hand, if opposition is sweeping, those planes are not escorting bombers, so you may be able to even the score now and then by killing unescorted bombers. Kills raise pilot exp and skills quickly.

To me, it seems that saving better pilots (70+) and sticking them to elite formations is best way to counter enemy a/c superiority locally. Exp/skills seem to be big modifiers. For Japan, it probably also pays to invest R&D to planes that can somewhat compete with allies in altitude. For example, Ki-61 Hien/Tony was historically about only plane that could challenge Allied planes high during mid-war. If starting to get high-altitude sweeps from planes like P-47/P-38, that is bad place to be in Zero/Oscar.

There are many modifiers in A2A combat in AE, but some patters can be distinguished. Like, altitude itself is not only thing that kills. Altitude and Exp/skill edge combined is big killer. Add to that better planes and situation gets darker for defender. Defender can lessen the impact by building his pilots to higher exp/skill level and hope for better planes. Or just try to outnumber enemy with experienced pilots. But it's always bad situation if number of factors are stacked against you.




Bingo....we have a winner.

_____________________________

WAR IN THE PACIFIC: Admiral's Edition - Air Team Lead

IN PERPETUUM SINGULARIS SEDES





Sardaukar -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/28/2010 9:41:45 PM)

So basically, you counter Strato-Sweep with better planes, better pilots or better tactics of your own. Or you can refuse to fight at disadvantage, if you cannot even the odds.

Most likely contributor to those 7-0 losses is that not only enemy has altitude advantage (which is not as big advantage that it cannot be mitigated by pilot exp/skills), but that opponent also has better pilots. It's usually time to start using that "Get Veteran" button, if you start losing air combat. And bring in more planes. 



Kwik E Mart -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/28/2010 9:49:08 PM)

Recommend good radar too. It will detect the raid earlier and give your CAP a chance to climb to meet the sweep. Did the OP notice the range at which the raid was detected and how much warning (in minutes) the CAP had? If they were scrambling when the sweep arrived, it should be expected to get a lopsided result like that.



Halsey -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/28/2010 10:07:49 PM)

Radar...
Stagger your CAP altitudes by bands.
Bands covered cause a roll to be made by the sweepng units, to see if they drop down to that altitude.

A unit set at high, medium, then low has a 33% chance of having the sweepers drop down in altitude.[;)]



Chickenboy -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/28/2010 10:40:03 PM)

I recommend talking with your opponent. There's a number of 'bug-esque' aspects to the stratospheric sweep problem that detract from the game experience and the otherwise rugged air-to-air model. Work together to identify what realistic (lower) bands of performance are for each fighter class and don't fly above those.

Easy as pie.

P39s and Nates don't fly above 15,000 feet. P-38s and Zeroes are OK up to 25,000 feet. The stratosphere / ionosphere / van Allen radiation belt flights are reserved for recon, but rarely utilized. Seems to work out pretty well.

In one of my PBEMs (June 1942), my opponent and I have been doing this for months of game time. It makes a difference in playability, trust me. Air power is much more on parity now than it was or could be with the use of the high altitude exploit that you've described.



Puhis -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/29/2010 5:20:43 AM)

Agreed. If I'm ever going to start anothet PBEM game, there's going to be HR for fighter altitude. Fighters can only fly at their best altitude band (both sweep and CAP), or maybe best altitude band + one band.

But I really think there should be penalty for flying "too" high, increased plane and pilot fatigue and operational losses, and decreased pilot morale.



LoBaron -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/29/2010 5:40:04 AM)

What Sardaukar said.

Also, if you cen get some of the factors working for you, donīt forget that every kill your pilots make is a plane shot down over
enemy base. That usually means the pilots is KIA or MIA. And thats often more valuable than the airframe destroyed.

In general a defending player can take up to 3 times the attackers losses in airframes and loses only about the same ammount of pilots.

Look for the factors that influence the superiority of the sweeper. Altitude is only the most obvious. If you get beaten 7:0 on a regular basis
you can bet that theres other dicerolls involved.



CapAndGown -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/29/2010 6:08:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

Radar...
Stagger your CAP altitudes by bands.
Bands covered cause a roll to be made by the sweepng units, to see if they drop down to that altitude.

A unit set at high, medium, then low has a 33% chance of having the sweepers drop down in altitude.[;)]



Where did you pick up this info?



LoBaron -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/29/2010 6:14:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown


quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

Radar...
Stagger your CAP altitudes by bands.
Bands covered cause a roll to be made by the sweepng units, to see if they drop down to that altitude.

A unit set at high, medium, then low has a 33% chance of having the sweepers drop down in altitude.[;)]



Where did you pick up this info?


Math? [;)]

Its quite simple: the attacker hits an enemy plane located in a certain alt band. The chance of hitting one specific alt band is indirectly proportional to
the number of alt bands.

So: to hit an alt band out of 3 you have a 33% chance; out of 4: 25%, and so on.



Disco Duck -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/29/2010 6:45:35 AM)

An earlier thread has all I can say about the subject.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2392225&mpage=1&key=bounce

My only question is, has anything been changed in the latest update?



castor troy -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/29/2010 7:55:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: runnersan

My opponent developed "new" tactic. He puts his Tojo's on max alt, sweep. I tried to counter with Hurricanes on max alt no effect.

My P-40K fighters with experienced pilots are his easy prey. In last fight I lost 7 planes to 0 his.

Is there any method to defend against this type of attack?



hehe, thatīs not a "new" tactic... [:D]



herwin -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/29/2010 12:02:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Agreed. If I'm ever going to start anothet PBEM game, there's going to be HR for fighter altitude. Fighters can only fly at their best altitude band (both sweep and CAP), or maybe best altitude band + one band.

But I really think there should be penalty for flying "too" high, increased plane and pilot fatigue and operational losses, and decreased pilot morale.



There should be a number of penalties:
1. Aircraft at higher altitude should be at a disadvantage in acquiring targets.
2. Aircraft more than one 'band' higher than the furball should be vulnerable to attack as they fly down to join in.
3. Aircraft at the 'wrong' altitude should be delayed at joining in, and any energy advantage should be reduced.




USSAmerica -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/29/2010 2:12:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: vaned74

I wonder if one put a low database group numbered squadron at low altitude CAP and then a high numbered group at highest altitude - would the sweepers then drop down to engage the low altitude bait squadron and then get eaten in turn by the high altitude CAP squadron?



A combination of CAP or ground alert aircraft at low altitude and a high altitude CAP was the WWII tactic to defend against a sweep threat. The low altitude element was not really bait. Low wing-loading aircraft were at their best at low altitude.


He asked if it would work IN THE GAME. [8|]


I am aware that was what he asked.


So you chose to ignore it and spout whatever you wanted to. Deliberately ignorant. Lovely. [sm=nono.gif]



herwin -> RE: Stratosphere sweeps, how to counter? (7/29/2010 3:10:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


...Various quotes...

He asked if it would work IN THE GAME. [8|]


I am aware that was what he asked.


So you chose to ignore it and spout whatever you wanted to. Deliberately ignorant. Lovely. [sm=nono.gif]


Nah. I knew someone would respond to the direct question--I was responding to the indirect question, which got answered. If you use a high and a low CAP, it weakens the stratospheric sweep tactic. I wonder if there's some way of implementing a sweep correctly, with both high covering and low attacking elements. I suspect it has to be handled as some sort of integrated mission.



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