RE: Addon Discussion (Full Version)

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WoodMan -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/11/2010 3:22:44 PM)

quote:

1.More moddability.


Well I was kind of hoping the modders patch would be in the next month or so, seeing as it was announced before the addon was [:D]



Shark7 -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/11/2010 3:46:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

quote:

1.More moddability.


Well I was kind of hoping the modders patch would be in the next month or so, seeing as it was announced before the addon was [:D]



I'm betting that the modders patch will be a part of the addon, just because Elliotg will probably have to make some code changes to allow the additional modability.



Webbco -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/11/2010 4:21:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wade1000

The Culture passes on terraforming every little ball around because forming their own Orbital and Ringworlds and Sphereworlds is possible and provides HUGE amounts of custom tailored land.


I know it's fictional, but this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I also haven't read the novels so apologies if it's answered in there...but why spend unthinkably massive quantities of resources on creating worlds from scratch when planets are present that provide a base on which to build?

Surely it would be totally inefficient to synthesise an entire world from scratch.



WoodMan -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/11/2010 5:11:39 PM)

Hehe, I read one of those novels, the one where the ring world is dying, and that guy finds out the hard way that his anti-grav pack won't work on a ring world, because its not "real" gravity [:D]



Baleur -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/12/2010 1:36:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

As for forming stars, it takes hundreds of millions of years for a solar system to form, so unsure about that one tbh.



So? [:)] This is a game, who's to say it doesnt take millions of years for the civs we play to expand across the entire galaxy (the current year-display is silly and inaccurate in any realism-terms anyway). [8|]

And I agree with Wade about the ringworlds etc.
The thing is, planets are great, they are already here and so forth. But when your civilization is so advanced that everything revolves around technology and energy (as we already begin seeing in our own civilization irl), a nice planet with the alien equivalent of forests and liquids could be little more than a holiday resort.

Sure it would take incredibly much resources to build these things around stars, but again, you'd get nearly limitless energy from a star that likely will last a few billions years more (or if we are talking dwarf stars, could potentially outlast your entire civilization). So while colonizing planets are sure to be the focus of all civilizations for some time, when technology (or rather power) reaches a certain plateau to the point of being able to construct anything effortlessly, while many of its inhabitants surely live on colonies, there's no reason why not to tap all that power just laying there waiting in space.

Keep in mind the "real" dyson sphere idea involves building and placing a huge number of satellites (or, space stations large as cities) close around the star, not an actual solid complete sphere around it :) Much like the satellites around our planets, except they'd be orbitally locked and so numerous that the star would appear dimmer to observers such as ourselves. (astronomers are even looking for signs of this while observing distant stars as we speak) [:)]



Brainsucker -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/12/2010 1:45:31 AM)

In game term, sphere world and ring world can be useful for the player if... the player is so unlucky that there is no habitable planets around his homeworld. But of course it should has limitation that make the player wants to colonize planets more than make the ring.

Teraforming is a good tech idea, but it should be given at the end game



Shark7 -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/12/2010 2:18:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baleur

quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

As for forming stars, it takes hundreds of millions of years for a solar system to form, so unsure about that one tbh.



So? [:)] This is a game, who's to say it doesnt take millions of years for the civs we play to expand across the entire galaxy (the current year-display is silly and inaccurate in any realism-terms anyway). [8|]

And I agree with Wade about the ringworlds etc.
The thing is, planets are great, they are already here and so forth. But when your civilization is so advanced that everything revolves around technology and energy (as we already begin seeing in our own civilization irl), a nice planet with the alien equivalent of forests and liquids could be little more than a holiday resort.

Sure it would take incredibly much resources to build these things around stars, but again, you'd get nearly limitless energy from a star that likely will last a few billions years more (or if we are talking dwarf stars, could potentially outlast your entire civilization). So while colonizing planets are sure to be the focus of all civilizations for some time, when technology (or rather power) reaches a certain plateau to the point of being able to construct anything effortlessly, while many of its inhabitants surely live on colonies, there's no reason why not to tap all that power just laying there waiting in space.

Keep in mind the "real" dyson sphere idea involves building and placing a huge number of satellites (or, space stations large as cities) close around the star, not an actual solid complete sphere around it :) Much like the satellites around our planets, except they'd be orbitally locked and so numerous that the star would appear dimmer to observers such as ourselves. (astronomers are even looking for signs of this while observing distant stars as we speak) [:)]


Have to agree there. The year/day display is more just a way for you to track that time is passing. A 'galactic cycle' clock might be better, since we're probably talking months or years to cross the vast emptiness of space...plus the 'galactic cycle' is so generic it can mean anything.



Gertjan -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/12/2010 11:18:28 AM)

Any nice links to pictures to get a better visual sense about these ringworlds?



WoodMan -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/12/2010 11:31:11 AM)

Look at Wades avatar on the first page of this thread, that is a ringworld.

and to those who disgree with me over my hesitancy on the god techs, remember I say if implemented correctly I think they are okay. I play with tech set to the slowest speed and I so far have never reached the highest tech levels in this game. So if I did stick around and play for longer, I wouldn't mind using these god techs, kind of a reward for sticking so long. I would prefer though that they are a major technological achievement, much like a Wonder rather than a standard feature of your Empire.

If however these god techs are in, the high level techs I suggested at first post in this thread should be one tech level lowers as they are not quite as nutty as these [:D] (cloaking device, stargate instant travel between two gates, planetary shields etc).



n01487477 -> Say it isn't so ... (8/12/2010 1:48:30 PM)

Well having been a Matrix supporter for more than a little while, I'd like to suggest that the existing game be fixed more thoroughly before there was any mention of an add-on.

I know and support Matrix because they have a great track record with the games I've purchased from them and go out of there way to keep working on projects to give the gamer the best support and experience they can...

Is it just me or was D.W not released as most Matrix games are ... a work in progress (a good work mind you) & undergone a number of patches already ... now only a few months later there is talk of an add-on[8|]

Now, It might be that an add-on is desired by many for a variety of modding reasons, which IMO should have been included F.O.C from the beginning. My fear is that an add-on be released which fixes the existing issues, while people like myself are caught out or even worse, that time is being devoted to this by Elliot, when the game still has a pretty long list of tech issues. Maybe I'm greedy cause I've never had to pay for an add-on from Matrix to enjoy my purchase fully ... and this is real testament to the company.

Matrix has been good over the years adding options to a number of games I play through patches - but that is when the game is "stable".

Sorry for derailing your discussion ... please continue...



Shark7 -> RE: Say it isn't so ... (8/12/2010 2:29:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Well having been a Matrix supporter for more than a little while, I'd like to suggest that the existing game be fixed more thoroughly before there was any mention of an add-on.

I know and support Matrix because they have a great track record with the games I've purchased from them and go out of there way to keep working on projects to give the gamer the best support and experience they can...

Is it just me or was D.W not released as most Matrix games are ... a work in progress (a good work mind you) & undergone a number of patches already ... now only a few months later there is talk of an add-on[8|]

Now, It might be that an add-on is desired by many for a variety of modding reasons, which IMO should have been included F.O.C from the beginning. My fear is that an add-on be released which fixes the existing issues, while people like myself are caught out or even worse, that time is being devoted to this by Elliot, when the game still has a pretty long list of tech issues. Maybe I'm greedy cause I've never had to pay for an add-on from Matrix to enjoy my purchase fully ... and this is real testament to the company.

Matrix has been good over the years adding options to a number of games I play through patches - but that is when the game is "stable".

Sorry for derailing your discussion ... please continue...


The game is stable. I run it with zero crashes and zero problems.



Wade1000 -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/12/2010 3:12:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gertjan

Any nice links to pictures to get a better visual sense about these ringworlds?


[image]local://upfiles/33168/9C2E09484AA74C59A8F7D6DA49A4D668.jpg[/image]
--------------------

Possibly an "Orbital Ring", smaller than a Ringworld that orbits a star instead of surrounding it. (See image on next post.)
[image]local://upfiles/33168/BDFFC76F025147D78068DBB66CA5B5CA.jpg[/image]

Last I read, there was a movie in development based on larry Niven's 'Ringworld' novels.
Various interesting sites about ringworlds, science fiction, and other maybe possible future technology:

Click on the tab called "Big" on this site: http://www.merzo.net/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringworld
http://squareshadow.com/graphics/ringworld/rw0.html
http://books.google.com/books?id=QaHg2TIGulcC&pg=RA1-PA512&lpg=RA1-PA512&dq=Bigger+Than+Worlds+Niven&source=bl&ots=ZmlEHtDuI5&sig=vy9cFFRK7dgw-5CxIgw5k_U6anw&hl=en&ei=ef1jTJGgFI2csQPbw-X9Bw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXZdaQN3r50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFW9nZAQubo
(Just keep clicking on the related videos.)
This one is more like a smaller than ringworld, orbital ring: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PYOgQEiBu4&feature=related

Google: Ringworld\Images for Ringworld
http://www.google.com/images?rlz=1T4ADFA_enUS349US350&q=ringworld&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=OAFkTJaMLIX2swOG_vyCCA&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CD4QsAQwAw

This wikipedia article about 'The Culture' novels can be as interesting as the novels. See the part about "Living Space"...as well as the rest!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture
quote:

Planets
Though many other civilizations in the Culture books live on planets, the Culture as it currently exists has little direct connection to planet life. A small number of 'homeworlds' of the founding member species of the Culture are mentioned in passing, and a few hundred human-habitable worlds were colonised (some being terraformed) before the Culture chose to turn towards artificial habitats, preferring to keep the planets it encounters 'wild'. Since then, terraforming has become looked down on by the Culture as inelegant, ecologically problematic and possibly even immoral. Less than one percent of the population of the Culture lives on planets, and many find the very concept a bit bizarre.

This respect is not absolute though; in Consider Phlebas, some Minds suggest testing a new technology on a 'spare planet' (knowing that it could be destroyed in an antimatter explosion if unsuccessful). It should be assumed from their normal ethics, however, that this planet would have been lifeless to start with. It's also quite possible, even probable, that the suggestion was not made in complete seriousness.



Universe scale sites:
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/525347
http://www.nikon.com/about/feelnikon/universcale/index.htm
http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/universe.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U
http://www.hulu.com/cosmos



Wade1000 -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/12/2010 3:23:55 PM)

(Used for image paste.)

Possibly an "Orbital Ring", smaller than a Ringworld that orbits a star instead of surrounding it.



Gertjan -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/12/2010 6:26:24 PM)

Thanks a lot Wade. Very fun!



Deomrve -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/13/2010 2:42:15 AM)

Don't know if this has been mentioned, but I would like to see a total surrender option. You know, one where the enemy empire completely surrenders to you and then you have the option of assimilating them or setting them free.



Baleur -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/13/2010 2:46:31 AM)

[image]http://image.absoluteastronomy.com/images/encyclopediaimages/d/dy/dyson_swarm.gif[/image]

Adding this, a simpler more short-term realistic dyson sphere which even us humans could build in this century, if we werent bound by economic limitations and such silly things hindering space exploration :)
Each dot just represents whatever you have resources for.
Satellites with huge solar cells, or entire space stations the size of cities, self-sufficient and due to the "free space" in this huge area, just build more as the population requires it, no overpopulation issues such as if you're stuck on a planet.



Shark7 -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/13/2010 2:28:06 PM)

One has to wonder though...can you actually grow enough food on a space station to support any significant population? And what happens as what's natural happens and the population expands?



Wade1000 -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/13/2010 2:56:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

One has to wonder though...can you actually grow enough food on a space station to support any significant population? And what happens as what's natural happens and the population expands?


-I think so; especially with hydroponics and other unknown future technology advances.
-More living space(stations) is built, like we do in real life with structures.

Science fiction can be about real future possibilities based on what we can imagine our current science anf technology might be able to lead to based on an exponential expansion like the past shows.
Like I stated earlier, that also seems to indicate that the far future, maybe even the near future, will have science and technology that we can't even imagine yet, and we can imagine alot now.

I'm sometimes surprised that this science fiction thinking sometimes is not used among some science fiction fans.
Often in science fiction games lately they seem to be based on World War 2 or modern warfare technologies and tactics. Incremental advances in various small technologies that seem to belong squeezed within 3 to 5 years of a WW2 game instead stretched into a science fiction game of hundreds or thousands of years.

I agree with what Baleur stated earlier:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Baleur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wade1000

Wish list:population centers beyond planetary(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture):Ships,Ring Orbitals,Sphere Orbitals,Ringworlds,Sphereworlds;ability to create & destroy planets,population centers,stars;AI competently using all advances & features.

Also, if an advance/technology can be found in the game then I believe that it should eventually be able to be researched, without first finding it.


Too many space games focus on the "cheap" aspects of space. A space station, a few ships, a planet here and there with a generic random-noise star background.
I desperatly agree, i so badly want another space game that realizes space and sci-fi for what it is, and depicts it as such.

Ringworlds, dyson spheres, aging stars, forming stars, neutron stars (i was surprised to see them included in this game), proper good sci-fi.


Think of one of the most popular 4X space games, Master of Orion 2. It's science and technologies were truly amazing. Nearly each advance was like a new technological wonder that brought many changes to society and strategy and seemed to advance a civilization to a new era...nearly each advance.



vonboy -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/13/2010 5:54:52 PM)

I would really love to see things like ring worlds, shpereworlds, dyson spheres, ect. I,d also like to see terraforming of planets (perhaps by way of expensive facilities you build on planets that slowly over time change planets from barren rocks to continental planets, and increases the quality of the planets in the process).

all of this would be late game stuff of course. i get what a previous poster means by why do these things when there are perfectly good planets to colonize already. in the late game, though, everything that's livable will be colonized already, and empires will either have to go to war to expand, and try one of these other strategies to make more out of what they got.



WoodMan -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/13/2010 6:50:59 PM)

Although skeptical at first, I'm now coming around to these ideas, but I can't stress how important it is that these are not an alternative to exploring and colonizing planets, if they are that would totally ruin the game.  If implemented correctly they could make the late game much more interesting.

What would be *really* good is if the game was split into 3 recognisable parts, levels of technology. Because of the research caps, although different Empires advance their tech at different speeds, they are never too far apart like in some other 4x games (as I mentioned before, Mechanised Walkers blowing up WW2 tanks, or spearmen etc [:D]). Because of this there really could be a recognisable early, mid and late game.

Early game should be about initial exploration and colonisation, making contact with other races and setting up diplomatic relations, trade routes and generally struggling into the stars with the early space faring tech.

Mid-game, the Empires are more advanced, they are no longer completely reliant on their homeworld as other colonies are starting to grow populous, engines now capable of travelling much further and of course, the economies have built up enough for large fleets to be built and troops trained. Wars and invasions begin and in the late mid-game the super techs like World Destroyer Weapons, Cloaking Devices, Planetary Shields and Star Gates(wormhole travel) are brought into action.

Late Game, the Empires are now large, some have collapsed or been defeated and super-powers have started to emerge that could win the game. The entire galaxy is explored and all races are in contact with each other now. Most of the colonizable real estate has been taken and the tech level of all remaining powerful Empires is almost maxed out. Now the God-Techs come into play, Blackhole Generators that can wipe out systems (given time), spheres of space stations around suns, ring worlds and technologies that can create stars and overtime planets from the gas clouds.

Now, that would be awesome, and I think DW could actually do it, due to the way the research for all Empires kind of levels out (almost). The entire galaxy would go through these stages, not just one race (the player race) as I've experienced a lot in older 4x games.



Wade1000 -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/15/2010 6:36:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Webbco


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wade1000

The Culture passes on terraforming every little ball around because forming their own Orbital and Ringworlds and Sphereworlds is possible and provides HUGE amounts of custom tailored land.


I know it's fictional, but this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I also haven't read the novels so apologies if it's answered in there...but why spend unthinkably massive quantities of resources on creating worlds from scratch when planets are present that provide a base on which to build?

Surely it would be totally inefficient to synthesise an entire world from scratch.


I imagine these habitats constructed using a sort of combination of energy to matter conversion, exponentially self replicating nanites, and telepoters. Also, the construction method could be something we can not even imagine yet.



WoodMan -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/15/2010 8:03:04 PM)

quote:

I know it's fictional, but this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I also haven't read the novels so apologies if it's answered in there...but why spend unthinkably massive quantities of resources on creating worlds from scratch when planets are present that provide a base on which to build?

Surely it would be totally inefficient to synthesise an entire world from scratch.


Problem is, the Culture is waaaay more advanced than the races in Distant Worlds (and Star Wars, Star Trek, Bab5, BSG and pretty much all mainstream televised sci-fi), which is why I think if these techs go in, they should be late game, game-enders kind of thing, rather than the norm.  As far as I understand the Culture don't even run their own lives anymore, machines and computers do it for them.  The military ships declare war and fight wars and build new ships on their own with no input or permission from the Culture, also every member of the Culture has a little floating robot that guards them at all times and saves them from accidents etc.



Wade1000 -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/15/2010 9:11:58 PM)

I understand what you say about these advances being late game. That is my thought too. Some games may end before they are reached but at least you have the idea that your civilization can advance to new eras. That's what I like about games; the idea of progresion. That's what drives many other types of games too, like Massive Multiplayer Online games like World of Warcraft...progression.

I'm glad to see that you read the wikipedia article about The Culture. The article itself is fun, even if you don't read the novels. But yeah, they are way more advanced compared to mainstream science fiction. Maybe like comparing ancient civilization to present day civilization; or a little closer than that.



WoodMan -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/15/2010 9:19:29 PM)

Just finished rummaging around my old book box and found Consider Phlebas, I knew I had a Culture Novel somewhere [:D] I might start reading it tonight [;)]



adecoy95 -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/15/2010 11:28:12 PM)

dont know what a ringworld looks like? never played halo?

[image]http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20070502/halo_4.jpg[/image]


one thing in an addon i would like to see changed is that currently there are alot of things in the design screen that you dont really have to freedom to create, nearly half of the modules either do not stack or cannot be placed on mobile ships.

i would like to see some freedom opened up in this aspect, possibly the ability to create mobile shipyards or research stations, additional hyperdrives contributing a speed bonus... extra command centers adding some sort of bonus (even if its multiplicative)

currently it feels like (at least with warships) i am only really balancing weapons/shields/engines, i would like to see something more like....

engines/shields/weapons/armor/targeting/countermeasures/command/damage control



Wade1000 -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/16/2010 12:41:56 AM)

That's a nice picture. It's more of an Orbital as in The Culture novels and other stories; Halo games also but the Halo, as I understood, was much smaller than an Orbital and was an acient weapon that eventually was used for habitation.

A Ringworld is vastly more surface area which surrounds a star instead of "simply" orbiting a star.
Some versions of Dyson Shpere, or Sphereworld, (Like the one discovered in Star Trek The Next Generation) are solid spheres surrounding a star. The habitation like flora, fauna, and cities are typically on the inside. Also, I can imagine habitation and factories within the depths of the structure, and then shipyards and other habitation on the outside surface; maybe even with small artificial stars/light sources attached outside.

A Sphereworld(Dyson Sphere) might be like a completed version of a Ringworld.



Shark7 -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/16/2010 1:17:48 AM)

When it comes to Ring Worlds and Dyson Spheres, I'm not so much in support of the player or AI being able to build them...

However, if there were ruins that the player or AI could find, repair and re-inhabit, then I could support it. Ancient technology that is only now being rediscovered etc.



gijas17 -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/16/2010 1:19:53 AM)

I would like to see colony planet slaves and/or natives and trade options reguarding this as well. Also, maybe more detailed planet battles either visually or on a stats pop-up screen. And terraforming - is this present visually in the game right now meaning can you see a ice, barren, volcanic or desert world change to more earth-like depending on your player race of course?



Wade1000 -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/16/2010 3:47:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

When it comes to Ring Worlds and Dyson Spheres, I'm not so much in support of the player or AI being able to build them...

However, if there were ruins that the player or AI could find, repair and re-inhabit, then I could support it. Ancient technology that is only now being rediscovered etc.


I know what you mean. There are some other games similiar to that. Yet, to me, it limits the game in a way.Some other ancient civilization researched and developed and construced the technology in the past thus any other current civilization should be able to do the same. Also, if the ancient technologies ARE discovered then it should speed up research of it and open up new possibilities in research.

An example, maybe not very similiar, but I think an example, is like many other nations "discovered" our atomic bomb during WW2 and afterwards we kept it as secret as possible afterwards. Those nations set about directing their scientists to research into that direction. Of course, spying, trading, and such were involved.

If some great devastation occured on Earth which turned nations as we know them into lost ancient civilizations then maybe some little tribe somewhere later would expand out and discover our ruins and some technologies. Even if all our data storage was destroyed then I think that tribe would continue to develop and research the same or similiar technologies that all the nations previously had.
----------

Regarding terraforming, I do like to have an impressive version of it in a game as an advance somewhere between early and middle game. In real life, we already have various ideas on how to terraform Mars and other bodies, even to improve our Earth using present or developing technologies.



Wade1000 -> RE: Addon Discussion (8/16/2010 4:05:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

Just finished rummaging around my old book box and found Consider Phlebas, I knew I had a Culture Novel somewhere [:D] I might start reading it tonight [;)]


Nice! That's the first one. I've read it and a few others. I still want to get the others. Also, there are one or two more new The Culture novels I heard about that aren't listed on Wikipedia.
SOME of the stories focus more on individuals at a couple locations while other stories are about The Culture on a grand scale involving the Minds and starships. Some starships are habitats with millions to billions of peopls and tens to hundreds of miles long.

quote:

Ships in the Culture are intelligent individuals, often of very large size, controlled by one or more Minds. The ship is considered the Mind's 'body'. Some ships (General Systems Vehicles) are tens or even hundreds of kilometers in length and may have millions or even billions of residents who live on them full time, and together with Orbitals represent the main form of habitat for the Culture. Such large ships may temporarily contain smaller ships with their own populations, and/or manufacture such ships themselves


The epilogue to Consider Phlebas describes the Idiran-Culture war in a historical way. It describes hundreds of billions of deaths, including Minds and Drones, the destruction of several Orbitals, and even a Ringworlds and three Sphereworlds(Dyson Spheres). Although, The Culture calls them Rings and Spheres.



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