Demo? (Full Version)

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pomakli -> Demo? (8/27/2010 8:33:43 AM)

Hi!

Will be here a demo?



Vic -> RE: Demo? (8/27/2010 9:17:14 AM)

Hi Pomakli,

A demo is not planned.

best regards,
Vic



Birdmon -> RE: Demo? (9/7/2010 1:20:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Hi Pomakli,

A demo is not planned.

best regards,
Vic


No demo, no buy. I'm sorry, I will not buy any game in todays PC market without a demo. I just dont understand why no demos from Matrix. I know I'm only one person but I've walked away from several games here because of no demo. This one looks kewl, but so did Elemental:WOM



Erik Rutins -> RE: Demo? (9/7/2010 1:23:34 AM)

Hi Birdmon,

We do demos for some games, it just varies. We also find that demos are counterproductive for complex games - they don't work the way they do for more casual or mainstream titles. Most people who try demos give them five minutes or less, which is not enough to learn a wargame, so we rely rather on developer's notes, previews, AARs and direct interaction with the development team to answer any questions you may have before purchase.

Regards,

- Erik



Birdmon -> RE: Demo? (9/7/2010 1:30:55 AM)

Most people who play war games know it takes several hours to even understand its concept. I think you underestimate the "war gamer IQ". This is your sandbox, so I geuss no demo.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Demo? (9/7/2010 1:40:11 AM)

Birdmon,

That's been our experience with wargamers, unfortunately. With that said, there are certainly those who use the demo "as intended" (and it sounds like you are one of those) but we've seen demos work against a perfectly good game, just because the person trying the demo isn't willing to put in the time. There's just a different level of investment. With that said, we will continue to have demos for some games where we feel they "demo well". Our upcoming Hannibal: Rome and Carthage game will have a demo, as will Panzer Command: Ostfront.

Regards,

- Erik



Llyranor -> RE: Demo? (9/7/2010 3:01:16 AM)

Though, it can push fence-sitters into buying the game as well (as happened with me for the Airborne Assault series), whereas they never would have considered buying the game otherwise.

Whereas the players who would spend 5 min with a demo are not the players who would spend money on a time-consuming game to begin with. Thus, it is not exactly a lost sale.

It's a juggling act, I suppose, gauging whether the cost of making a demo is worth it.

I'll be picking this one up without a demo, however. The awesome word of mouth + co-op PBEM (great great feature, thank you!) has sold me.



GlobalExplorer -> RE: Demo? (9/7/2010 2:56:28 PM)

Never buy the cat in the sack.



GlobalExplorer -> RE: Demo? (9/7/2010 3:01:27 PM)

It is a bit like matrimony: If you have never slept with your wife before you married and you find that it is not fun. You would try and probably come to terms with. But if you find out before the marriage you probably not marry her at all, right?



GlobalExplorer -> RE: Demo? (9/7/2010 3:03:43 PM)

And that's why our grand-parents were not allowed to have sex before they married.



GlobalExplorer -> RE: Demo? (9/7/2010 3:04:30 PM)

I am still unmarried by the way.



Josh -> RE: Demo? (9/7/2010 3:53:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Birdmon


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Hi Pomakli,

A demo is not planned.

best regards,
Vic


No demo, no buy. I'm sorry, I will not buy any game in todays PC market without a demo. I just dont understand why no demos from Matrix. I know I'm only one person but I've walked away from several games here because of no demo. This one looks kewl, but so did Elemental:WOM



Well it 's you call ofcourse, but what I do in cases where there's no demo, I just check the forums, and especially the AAR's, if I like what I see I buy.
From Vic I buy even without having seen an AAR.
With FPS or RPG games where there is sometimes no demo too I check the forums. how active are they, how "busy" is the "technical help" department (less is better).



Tordan69 -> RE: Demo? (9/7/2010 5:03:28 PM)

Any chance of a downloadable manual then?



TPM -> RE: Demo? (9/7/2010 5:11:44 PM)

With all the forums and AAR's, etc., in some ways a demo is not needed. Of course, it's great to "try before you buy", but from checking everything out on this forum, I already have a pretty good idea of what the game is about...heck, you can almost learn how to play the game from these forums...



Xornox -> RE: Demo? (9/7/2010 7:06:59 PM)

There are currently many interesting Matrix games which I would probably buy if demo would be available. However because demos are not available, I buy currently only "sure" top games...

I do not agree that deep strategy games could not be demoed well. I am not checking deep details from demos, but usability of UI and basic concepts of the game. Good example for this is Field of Glory which I would probably love, but I do not want to buy it without understanding first how game works.

It is very unfortunate that Matrix games is probably creating many great games but many buyers skip them only because games should be purchased blindly.



Ctaardvark -> RE: Demo? (9/19/2010 8:08:01 PM)

Totally agree with you Xornox. I have seen so many Matrix games which have tempted me, however without being able to test whether they "feel" right I wont get them. I picked up Korsun Pocket on ebay for £5 which led me to get BiN and BiIt (Normandy did have a demo which just made me buy the game quicker!). Without this stroke of luck I wouldn't have tried either and Matrix wouldn't have had my money.

I played the demo of Command Ops:Battles from the Bulge and loved it. I then bought the first one in the series with the view of working my way through. BftB is just too expensive at the mo' (maybe a kindly relative at Xmas).

I think the cost of Matrix games prohibits dipping the toe in. I know they have to make money, and I don't begrudge the initial cost of the games, however for games that are a few years old surely price cuts are in order - all other games do.



Phatguy -> RE: Demo? (9/20/2010 1:51:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ctaardvark

Totally agree with you Xornox. I have seen so many Matrix games which have tempted me, however without being able to test whether they "feel" right I wont get them. I picked up Korsun Pocket on ebay for £5 which led me to get BiN and BiIt (Normandy did have a demo which just made me buy the game quicker!). Without this stroke of luck I wouldn't have tried either and Matrix wouldn't have had my money.

I played the demo of Command Ops:Battles from the Bulge and loved it. I then bought the first one in the series with the view of working my way through. BftB is just too expensive at the mo' (maybe a kindly relative at Xmas).

I think the cost of Matrix games prohibits dipping the toe in. I know they have to make money, and I don't begrudge the initial cost of the games, however for games that are a few years old surely price cuts are in order - all other games do.



But then most fence-sitters would wait a year or two to buy it cheap therefore giving Matrix less money to help develop new games.When a consumer knows that a product stays the same price for a long time they tend to buy it earlier.While I personally dont like paying full price for old games I do understand it from a business standpoint



bairdlander2 -> RE: Demo? (9/20/2010 3:54:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GlobalExplorer

And that's why our grand-parents were not allowed to have sex before they married.

Thats a myth,pre martial sex has been happening since the beginning of time.



bairdlander2 -> RE: Demo? (9/20/2010 3:57:40 AM)

Im glad Matrix has some demo's saved (me from purchases I would have regretted).This game is well worth getting.If no demo,I usually just read posts here on forums,I pretty much know who has good judgement and who doesnt here so thats what I would base my decisions on.



TPM -> RE: Demo? (9/20/2010 7:37:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

Im glad Matrix has some demo's saved (me from purchases I would have regretted).This game is well worth getting.If no demo,I usually just read posts here on forums,I pretty much know who has good judgement and who doesnt here so thats what I would base my decisions on.


That's what I'm saying...it seems to me that you can get a pretty good idea of the game by looking at the forums, screenshots, AAR's, people's opinions, etc.



borsook79 -> RE: Demo? (9/20/2010 11:15:06 PM)

There is no such thing as a game that does not "demo" well. Even Baldur's gate had a demo. I bought this game because I knew AT, for which People's tactics was a kind of demo for me. If not for this I wouldn't have bought this... There are exactly 9 Matrix games I considered buying and the main reason why I haven't done so was the lack of demo. BTW for this game - Netherlands scenario would be a good demo.



Krupinski -> RE: Demo? (9/20/2010 11:25:49 PM)

i think that a demo of a small scenario (which has been seed in the internet) could push the sales...



TPM -> RE: Demo? (9/21/2010 12:56:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Borsook

There is no such thing as a game that does not "demo" well. Even Baldur's gate had a demo. I bought this game because I knew AT, for which People's tactics was a kind of demo for me. If not for this I wouldn't have bought this... There are exactly 9 Matrix games I considered buying and the main reason why I haven't done so was the lack of demo. BTW for this game - Netherlands scenario would be a good demo.



Although I don't think a demo is necessarily needed for this game, I do agree with the first sentence of this post. A demo is a demonstration of the game with some limitations (time, scenarios, save games, etc.). I can't see any game being so radically different in demo version that it doesn't give you a good sense of the real game. Not sure why Vic isn't putting out a demo (again, I don't think he needs to), but it certaintly isn't because the game doesn't "demo" well.



Misery -> RE: Demo? (10/7/2010 3:13:02 AM)

Sorry for bringing up the demo issue again. However, the lack of a demo is prohibiting me from purchasing this game. Money is tight as it is, and I simply cannot throw my money away on a title that ends up gathering dust. CIV 5 is a perfect example. I have had my eye on it since it was announced. Unfortunately, I played the demo first and determined the game wasn't for me. Now I realize the demo cost the developer a sale, but at least there was consideration on my part. I can't even consider Decisive Campaigns at this time.

So, I ask again, is there any chance of a simple demo at some point in the future?



IainMcNeil -> RE: Demo? (10/7/2010 7:45:49 AM)

From our experience and the research we've seen demos work well for light games that are easy to get in to. When you give someone something for free (a demo) they do not value it. If they are not grabbed instantly (the first 5 minutes are when most players make up their mind) they move on to the next free thing. However when a user buys something they have already invested cash in it and so value it more. The first 5 mins are not as critical. They are very unlikely to give up if they are not having fun immediately. They persist for longer, getting through the learning curve and on to the point they are enjoying the game and it could take them hours. The person playing a demo might give up before they get to the point they enjoyed it, whereas with the bought game they don't and so the same person with the same game can come out with a completely different opinion based on their investment in it at the time if first playing.

Turn based strategy games by their nature rarely are able to grab you in the first 5 minutes which is essential for a demo. This is why we generally try to avoid them, or you have to invest a lot of time & money in making sure the demo does grab people in the first 5 minutes which is very different to making a strategy game that people enjoy for many many hours. Having said that we're planning demos on some of the recent releases but we're looking to do them in unusual ways that hopefully mitigate the 5 minute rule.

Unfortunately it is just human nature that this is how it works. Obviously this not true of everyone but the % is so high that demos can actually hurt sales rather than help them, and I don't mean because people can find out they don't like a game from a demo. We only create demos where we feel a demo will increase sales. Anything else would be crazy for us as a business :)



borsook79 -> RE: Demo? (10/7/2010 10:15:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

From our experience and the research we've seen demos work well for light games that are easy to get in to. When you give someone something for free (a demo) they do not value it. If they are not grabbed instantly (the first 5 minutes are when most players make up their mind) they move on to the next free thing. However when a user buys something they have already invested cash in it and so value it more. The first 5 mins are not as critical. They are very unlikely to give up if they are not having fun immediately. They persist for longer, getting through the learning curve and on to the point they are enjoying the game and it could take them hours. The person playing a demo might give up before they get to the point they enjoyed it, whereas with the bought game they don't and so the same person with the same game can come out with a completely different opinion based on their investment in it at the time if first playing.

Turn based strategy games by their nature rarely are able to grab you in the first 5 minutes which is essential for a demo. This is why we generally try to avoid them, or you have to invest a lot of time & money in making sure the demo does grab people in the first 5 minutes which is very different to making a strategy game that people enjoy for many many hours. Having said that we're planning demos on some of the recent releases but we're looking to do them in unusual ways that hopefully mitigate the 5 minute rule.

Unfortunately it is just human nature that this is how it works. Obviously this not true of everyone but the % is so high that demos can actually hurt sales rather than help them, and I don't mean because people can find out they don't like a game from a demo. We only create demos where we feel a demo will increase sales. Anything else would be crazy for us as a business :)

This is very true, but it seems you are assuming a general audience for the demo. Indeed in such a case a demo of a turn based game such as this may not be captivating enough. But here the case is different, no casual gamer visits Matrix, but rather people who play "hardcore" wargames. Their view of the demo would be in terms of comparing it to rather products, which develop at the same, slow pace. Maybe I'm wrong but I think this would work, after playing one scenario in this game I was able to tell if I like it or not.



TPM -> RE: Demo? (10/7/2010 5:36:59 PM)


[/quote]
This is very true, but it seems you are assuming a general audience for the demo. Indeed in such a case a demo of a turn based game such as this may not be captivating enough. But here the case is different, no casual gamer visits Matrix, but rather people who play "hardcore" wargames. Their view of the demo would be in terms of comparing it to rather products, which develop at the same, slow pace. Maybe I'm wrong but I think this would work, after playing one scenario in this game I was able to tell if I like it or not.
[/quote]

I don't think he's assuming this at all...in fact, it would have to be assumed that their research would indeed cover "hardcore" wargamers as well as "light" wargamers, otherwise the research wouldn't be worth much.

Further, I believe their research is right on the money...I downloaded the demo for Command Ops: Battles from the Bulge, and since I couldn't get into the flow of it in the 15 minutes I sat there trying to learn it (even with the tutorial, etc.), I passed on it. Two thoughts:

1. If I had paid the money for the game, you're damn right I'd have spent more time trying to figure it out.
2. Notwithstanding my decision not to buy, I don't think making a demo for this particular game (Battles from the Bulge) was a bad idea. It's a very different kind of wargame, and prospective buyers need to be able to check that out.

All in all, I have absolutely no problem with companies not putting out demos...yes, in some cases it gets you to buy, but in others it doesn't. For Decisive Campaigns, I do not feel a demo is needed. This game is being discussed ad naseum on these forums...there's screen shots, AAR's, a detailed combat example, GREAT input from the creator of the game, comparisons to other games, etc., etc. I believe there is enough there to help anyone make a decision about it.



bairdlander2 -> RE: Demo? (10/7/2010 5:43:34 PM)

agree,I bought just based on the screenshoots,old school board wargame exactly.



Toby42 -> RE: Demo? (10/7/2010 6:31:23 PM)

It's a Great Game! Buy it!!!



JD Walter -> RE: Demo? (10/7/2010 10:20:01 PM)

Agree, Treale.

One of my favorite purchases from Matrix.

DC:WtP reminds me very much of the old SPI "Kursk" series of boardgames (Kursk/Kharkov/France '40 etc.) ... With the added extra of limited intellligence, much like Jim Dunnigan tried to emulate with his idea for untried units in Panzergruppe Guderian (another of my favorites).



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