Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain, Case Red (Full Version)

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GlobalExplorer -> Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain, Case Red (9/5/2010 10:24:30 AM)

Let me say this first: having Sealion as a hypothetical option, is great!

But why no Invasion of Norway? I am interested in the strategic options like, for example, Denmark putting up some resistance (though I don't know how realistic this is), the Brits handling Norway more aggressively / with a bit more luck than they historically did, etc.

Ideally, any game about the first phase of the war should come with at least these scenarios:

Poland
Weserübung
France

I would also like to see a Battle of Britain scenario. First, to see if the Luftwaffe could have had more success with a different strategy. Second, this would also fit in very nicely with the Sealion option, for the BoB is of course the turning point before Sealion can happen at all. Morevover, it could be interesting to see how the Germans could have approached a second air offensive after the Bob debacle, if Hitler had not attacked Russia, i.e. a Battle of Britain II.

Of course one day I would like to see all theatres before Barbarossa 1941 in one campaign, that is also Mediterranean, Yugoslavia, Greece and North Africa, similar to how it was done in Panzer General .... And to dream a bit, once that is complete, this series could then move on to Decisive Campaigns Barbarossa.




TPM -> RE: Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain (9/6/2010 4:45:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GlobalExplorer
I would also like to see a Battle of Britain scenario. First, to see if the Luftwaffe could have had more success with a different strategy. Second, this would also fit in very nicely with the Sealion option, for the BoB is of course the turning point before Sealion can happen at all. Morevover, it could be interesting to see how the Germans could have approached a second air offensive after the Bob debacle, if Hitler had not attacked Russia, i.e. a Battle of Britain II.


The Battle of Britain is definitely a turning point in the war, but somehow it seems out of place in this game...this game seems more "land-based", and it almost seems to do an epic air battle justice, there would need to be more of a focus on the air mechanics...someone jump in if I'm off-base because I don't have the game, but from what I've read, the game is similar to TOAW in the fact that the focus is on land battles.



D.Ilse -> RE: Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain (9/6/2010 6:13:00 AM)

I am all for a Norway add-on.

Yes I agree, BoB is rather out of the scope of this game, but Balkans and Crete would work.

Def being interesting if the elements of 5.Panzer are included in Crete, 1/2 of the Kradschutzen Battalion which was airlanded(the first 1/2 was sunk on the transports heading to Crete) and two Panzer IIs were landed by tug and barge.




borsook79 -> RE: Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain (9/6/2010 2:47:12 PM)

I still hope that we will see Norway in this game, Vic in the past has been a very dedicated devs, he's not he one to release a game and forget about it rushing into a next project. That said - Crete etc deserve a place in the next game, hopefully showing southern theatre of the war (1940-42)



Ralph1961 -> RE: Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain (9/8/2010 2:20:31 PM)

I am thinking about purchasing this game but I have a question: how much staying power does it have? Only 3 scenarios seem a little light.
Ralph



Alan Sharif -> RE: Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain (9/8/2010 2:30:25 PM)

Ralph, the are five sceanarios and the three main scearios have tons of historical variables you can play with. Also, they are large, in particular France, with many units. This game will keep you busy for a very long time.



Panzeh -> RE: Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain (9/8/2010 4:24:05 PM)

The thing holding a Norway scenario back, I think, might be the naval modeling.  Not sure what improvements Vic has in mind for the DC series in that regard, but it might be important down the line.



Ralph1961 -> RE: Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain (9/9/2010 1:51:00 AM)

Thanks. I assume that pbem is the way to go? This game sounds like something I would like, maybe one of the SSG Decisive titles only a little lighter?
Based on the forum activity maybe a detailed strategy guide with the formulas would be a great addtion. I really miss the old days of a well written guide along the lines of MOO.



WilliePete -> RE: Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain (9/9/2010 3:09:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Borsook

I still hope that we will see Norway in this game, Vic in the past has been a very dedicated devs, he's not he one to release a game and forget about it rushing into a next project. That said - Crete etc deserve a place in the next game, hopefully showing southern theatre of the war (1940-42)



Norway would be a good side scenario. I think the Germans fielded only 9 divisions, so its a good side mission, but not for a main title release. The Balkans is another good side scenario. Crete had at total of 15,000 Germans on it. Thats just one divison of three regiments and a few supporting units. At the current scale, try to imagine moving around only 3-5 units per side on a very small map... unless Vic scales down from regiments to maybe battalions, Crete is simply too small.

The Africa Campaign is good, and so is Normandy, Italy, The Bulge, and the main show - East Front. Drang nach Osten!



Vic -> RE: Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain (9/9/2010 11:49:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WilliePete


quote:

ORIGINAL: Borsook

I still hope that we will see Norway in this game, Vic in the past has been a very dedicated devs, he's not he one to release a game and forget about it rushing into a next project. That said - Crete etc deserve a place in the next game, hopefully showing southern theatre of the war (1940-42)


Norway would be a good side scenario. I think the Germans fielded only 9 divisions, so its a good side mission, but not for a main title release. The Balkans is another good side scenario. Crete had at total of 15,000 Germans on it. Thats just one divison of three regiments and a few supporting units. At the current scale, try to imagine moving around only 3-5 units per side on a very small map... unless Vic scales down from regiments to maybe battalions, Crete is simply too small.

The Africa Campaign is good, and so is Normandy, Italy, The Bulge, and the main show - East Front. Drang nach Osten!


Scale yes.

Actually i had the feeling Africa is not well suited for the current scale used either. The Germans fielded at most 3 divisions (12 regiments) and the italians maybee 10-12 divisions, but most of those italian divs are only 2 regiment sized units. Thats maybe 30-40 units max... eh. It seems to me for the current scale as main big scenarios East Front, Normandy, Ardennes are best suited.

Best regards,
Vic



GlobalExplorer -> RE: Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain (9/9/2010 1:26:02 PM)

It's true. Compared to the rather dense scenarios in Europa, Norway and Africa operate with much less units over larger areas.

But wouldn't it be a nice change? No game would be complete without these scenarios, and the small problems are made up with more freedom of movement (Stephen Bungay compares warfare in North Africa with tanks operating in the desert like ships on the ocean).

A Crete scenario is really not sensible in this game, but perhaps it could be modelled as a small part of a larger North Africa operation? (with cards for the Crete airborne landings)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzeh

The thing holding a Norway scenario back, I think, might be the naval modeling.  Not sure what improvements Vic has in mind for the DC series in that regard, but it might be important down the line.


But why should it hold back Norway but not Sealion?

I don't see need for complex naval operations in this type of game anyway, and I would play Norway without Destroyer and U-Boat operations (where it is necessary, cards can deal with the necessary naval and airborne redeployments).



GlobalExplorer -> RE: Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain (9/9/2010 1:28:00 PM)

Now think of it, has someone already mentioned Case Red, the attack on the greater French territory?



TAIL GUNNER -> RE: Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain (9/9/2010 1:45:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GlobalExplorer

Now think of it, has someone already mentioned Case Red, the attack on the greater French territory?


That would be another excellent scenario to include in the campaign...



GlobalExplorer -> RE: Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain (9/9/2010 2:00:16 PM)

Add Norway and Fall Red and DC becomes the perfect Blitzkrieg game.



TPM -> RE: Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain (9/9/2010 4:03:11 PM)

quote:


Scale yes.

Actually i had the feeling Africa is not well suited for the current scale used either. The Germans fielded at most 3 divisions (12 regiments) and the italians maybee 10-12 divisions, but most of those italian divs are only 2 regiment sized units. Thats maybe 30-40 units max... eh. It seems to me for the current scale as main big scenarios East Front, Normandy, Ardennes are best suited.

Best regards,
Vic



Well, it would make for a smaller scenario as far as the numbers of units are concerned, but remember that war went on for 3 years...I think it would be a great game with plenty of card-driven events, fog of war, supply difficulties, units being taken away (to other theaters), the arrival of Rommel, etc....the scenario could run all the way till the Americans land in Tunis, you could do Kasserine Pass...the more I think about it, this would be a great scenario for the engine...

TOAW had a great North Africa campaign that really captured the back-and-forth nature of that conflict...anyway, just my thoughts.



Hexagon -> RE: Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain (9/9/2010 4:14:29 PM)

Dont forget italian stabbing [:D]

More serious now... i think that they are going to cut France scen in a Belgian scen (until Dunkirk) and other scen covering Meuse crossing, Norway or fall of France... i dont see them in a near future or in a future because both need new maps [:(]

Well, in few weeks we can know the future of the serie only can wait... if we are waiting more patches (fixing bugs and changing things like interface) talk about future is a little [8|] .... for north Africa scens battalion level is a better choice than regimental level if they cover battles and not the full campaing from Italian attack in late 1940 to Tunis fall as main scen.



borsook79 -> RE: Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain (9/9/2010 4:25:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TPM

quote:


Scale yes.

Actually i had the feeling Africa is not well suited for the current scale used either. The Germans fielded at most 3 divisions (12 regiments) and the italians maybee 10-12 divisions, but most of those italian divs are only 2 regiment sized units. Thats maybe 30-40 units max... eh. It seems to me for the current scale as main big scenarios East Front, Normandy, Ardennes are best suited.

Best regards,
Vic



Well, it would make for a smaller scenario as far as the numbers of units are concerned, but remember that war went on for 3 years...I think it would be a great game with plenty of card-driven events, fog of war, supply difficulties, units being taken away (to other theaters), the arrival of Rommel, etc....the scenario could run all the way till the Americans land in Tunis, you could do Kasserine Pass...the more I think about it, this would be a great scenario for the engine...

TOAW had a great North Africa campaign that really captured the back-and-forth nature of that conflict...anyway, just my thoughts.

I agree, a campaign with smaller number of units would be a nice change of pace, and combining African theatre, Balkans, Crete and invasion of Italy would give a sufficient amount of gameplay for a separate instalment of DC.



JMass -> RE: Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain (9/9/2010 6:03:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TPM
Well, it would make for a smaller scenario as far as the numbers of units are concerned, but remember that war went on for 3 years...I think it would be a great game with plenty of card-driven events, fog of war, supply difficulties, units being taken away (to other theaters), the arrival of Rommel, etc....the scenario could run all the way till the Americans land in Tunis, you could do Kasserine Pass...the more I think about it, this would be a great scenario for the engine...


I agree, I like very much the idea of a lot of small-medium scenarios and a campaign game 1940-1943.
[&o]



BodyBag -> RE: Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain (9/9/2010 8:14:39 PM)

JMass:

It was actually major Wenck who said "Klotzen, nicht kleckern" when Guderian asked permission to turn his division westward after crossing the Meuse.

Cheers,



JMass -> RE: Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain (9/9/2010 8:39:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BodyBag
It was actually major Wenck who said "Klotzen, nicht kleckern" when Guderian asked permission to turn his division westward after crossing the Meuse.


It seems that Wenck replied to Guderian repeating his famous phrase: http://books.google.it/books?id=ykyPnalO5twC&pg=PA106&lpg=PA106&dq=Wenck+%22Klotzen+nicht+Kleckern+%22&source=bl&ots=MlRj4__PnV&sig=Op9n7htVCTcSDqFmUdn5uhCi0pU&hl=it&ei=PTSJTNieIsbAswaG25mdAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Wenck%20%22Klotzen%20nicht%20Kleckern%20%22&f=false



TPM -> RE: Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain (9/9/2010 10:02:34 PM)

Regarding a North African campaign scenario, I'm imagining something like Vic's version of the boardgame "Rommel in the Desert" (which, unfortunately, I've only played once)...it's not necessarily about moving a million units around, it's about nerve, outguessing your opponent, dealing the hard facts of the weather, terrain and supply, etc.

Anyway, good to hear that a couple of you agree with me...there's alot of us wargamers out here who actually want less units, not more. I'm still waiting for a slick computer East Front game with Corps, or even Army sized units...a game where I'm spending most of my time making the BIG decisions, and it won't take me a year to play...I'm definitely not coming down on those who dig that way of playing, I'm just saying that there are those of us who don't mind playing with less units, etc.

My 2 cents...



dougb -> RE: Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain (9/9/2010 10:48:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TPM

Regarding a North African campaign scenario, I'm imagining something like Vic's version of the boardgame "Rommel in the Desert" (which, unfortunately, I've only played once)...it's not necessarily about moving a million units around, it's about nerve, outguessing your opponent, dealing the hard facts of the weather, terrain and supply, etc.

Anyway, good to hear that a couple of you agree with me...there's alot of us wargamers out here who actually want less units, not more. I'm still waiting for a slick computer East Front game with Corps, or even Army sized units...a game where I'm spending most of my time making the BIG decisions, and it won't take me a year to play...I'm definitely not coming down on those who dig that way of playing, I'm just saying that there are those of us who don't mind playing with less units, etc.

My 2 cents...


Amen to that! There are quite a few boardgames set at corps and army level on the eastern front with fewer units and I find that it allows me more time to plan my strategy and moves and less time trying to figure out if I've forgotten to move the 415th Kitchen Battalion! Vic should check out No Retreat from Victory Point Games as a good example of the incredible gaming that can be created when the level moves up a bit higher. I agree that Vic's game system in the desert would be alot of fun - perhaps even more fun than even the Poland and France scenarios.

Those wishing for thousands of counters will have Grigby's War in the East. Here's a plea from another gamer who'd like a few less counters to push around!

Best wishes,

Doug



TPM -> RE: Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain (9/9/2010 11:26:43 PM)


quote:



Amen to that! There are quite a few boardgames set at corps and army level on the eastern front with fewer units and I find that it allows me more time to plan my strategy and moves and less time trying to figure out if I've forgotten to move the 415th Kitchen Battalion! Vic should check out No Retreat from Victory Point Games as a good example of the incredible gaming that can be created when the level moves up a bit higher. I agree that Vic's game system in the desert would be alot of fun - perhaps even more fun than even the Poland and France scenarios.

Those wishing for thousands of counters will have Grigby's War in the East. Here's a plea from another gamer who'd like a few less counters to push around!

Best wishes,

Doug


Well, at the risk of beating a dead horse, just want to chime in and say that I have No Retreat, and it's exactly the type of game I'd like to see for PC...you're spending more time on the actual strategy (love your reference to Kitchen Battalion...yeah, nothing like diving in to your favorite WWII theatre, and spending most of your time moving around Railroad Repair batallions, or anti-aircraft batteries)...

...OK, now we're officially off topic, so I'll leave it here!



D.Ilse -> RE: Scenarios, Operation Weserübung, Battle of Britain (9/10/2010 12:03:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic


quote:

ORIGINAL: WilliePete


quote:

ORIGINAL: Borsook

I still hope that we will see Norway in this game, Vic in the past has been a very dedicated devs, he's not he one to release a game and forget about it rushing into a next project. That said - Crete etc deserve a place in the next game, hopefully showing southern theatre of the war (1940-42)


Norway would be a good side scenario. I think the Germans fielded only 9 divisions, so its a good side mission, but not for a main title release. The Balkans is another good side scenario. Crete had at total of 15,000 Germans on it. Thats just one divison of three regiments and a few supporting units. At the current scale, try to imagine moving around only 3-5 units per side on a very small map... unless Vic scales down from regiments to maybe battalions, Crete is simply too small.

The Africa Campaign is good, and so is Normandy, Italy, The Bulge, and the main show - East Front. Drang nach Osten!


Scale yes.

Actually i had the feeling Africa is not well suited for the current scale used either. The Germans fielded at most 3 divisions (12 regiments) and the italians maybee 10-12 divisions, but most of those italian divs are only 2 regiment sized units. Thats maybe 30-40 units max... eh. It seems to me for the current scale as main big scenarios East Front, Normandy, Ardennes are best suited.

Best regards,
Vic



Correct on the Italian Divs, they were bineral(two regiments) vs the "Normal" Triangle(3 Regiments) or the Square(4 Regiments) of Infantry. The reason for this with the Italians was so Benito could fluff the size of his armour in the 1930s. But it proved to be a bad choice in the Italio-Greeco War..in the months before the Germans moved into the balkans.



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