Best IJN ASW assets? (Full Version)

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undercovergeek -> Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 10:23:32 AM)

Without wishing to cause trouble about whats over powered and not, or whats over represented and not, thats for other people to argue about, im just here to sink subs - what are the best subhunters and subsinkers in the IJA, at the minute ive just got SCs and PBs sat in hexes ive seen a small green menace in but they couldnt hit a cows arse with a banjo - probably every 5 turns i get a 'sighting' and no hits with the barrage of charges i drop - just need to know what to point at the allied subs

as always, thanks for help



mike scholl 1 -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 11:22:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

Without wishing to cause trouble about whats over powered and not, or whats over represented and not, thats for other people to argue about, im just here to sink subs - what are the best subhunters and subsinkers in the IJA, at the minute ive just got SCs and PBs sat in hexes ive seen a small green menace in but they couldnt hit a cows arse with a banjo - probably every 5 turns i get a 'sighting' and no hits with the barrage of charges i drop - just need to know what to point at the allied subs

as always, thanks for help



Wait a bit. Later in the war you will get a boatload of "E" class escorts with an ASW rating of 14. As the DE England (sank 6 Japanese subs in 9 days) is only given an ASW rating of 11, these "Escorts" are without a doubt the most over-rated vessels in the entire game. And they perform as such. In the last 6 turns of my game, I've lost three subs to pairs of these "Escorts" with 21,25, and 26 "hits" in single attacks.



Sardaukar -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 11:30:11 AM)

ASW rating is not telling whole thruth about ASW capability. It is good guide, but it is just the number of ASW weapons without any detail about weapon capabilities. Some DCs and systems like Mousetrap/Hedgehog can be lot more deadlier and accurate than other systems.



mike scholl 1 -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 12:05:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

ASW rating is not telling whole truth about ASW capability. It is good guide, but it is just the number of ASW weapons without any detail about weapon capabilities. Some DCs and systems like Mousetrap/Hedgehog can be lot more deadlier and accurate than other systems.



So I'm told..., but I'm going by the results, and these "Escorts" are far too deadly in the game by historical standards. Hopefully someone on the design staff will take a close look at them one of these days. [:(]



castor troy -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 12:37:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

ASW rating is not telling whole truth about ASW capability. It is good guide, but it is just the number of ASW weapons without any detail about weapon capabilities. Some DCs and systems like Mousetrap/Hedgehog can be lot more deadlier and accurate than other systems.



So I'm told..., but I'm going by the results, and these "Escorts" are far too deadly in the game by historical standards. Hopefully someone on the design staff will take a close look at them one of these days. [:(]



It´s more of a problem of the E´s experience than a problem of their DC racks. I´m sure the vessels themselve are accurately modeled compared to real life and usually all those non DD or DE vessels are rather poor ASW platforms due to their low experience. But have them moving around for some time and get some attacks and they will hit one of the magic experience levels that makes them very deadly because then they´ve got the needed experience and twice the number of DC a destroyer has got.

I do feel your pain about E as I´m on the receiving end of them too and I guess I haven´t faced the 14 ASW value E vessels so far.



Bomber -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 12:53:34 PM)

Early war Jap ASW ships dont do very well for me. Right from day 1 I start training all my reserve aircraft on ASW duty.
I find it quite useful especially when the allies get wind of what area you are concentrating on you can move a few high experience ASW patrols into the area at 1000 feet and watch the reported hits go up (assuming FoW variables).
I have done this quite a bit and sub activity in the area usually diminishes within a few turns.



JohnDillworth -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 1:00:46 PM)

hunter-killer groups work best. ASW ships without aircraft are pretty blind and often don't get the first shot. See if you can get your ASW aircraft to find the subs first, then the ships are much, much more effective. This even works for the allies in the beginning of the war.



mike scholl 1 -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 1:03:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

It´s more of a problem of the E´s experience than a problem of their DC racks. I´m sure the vessels themselves are accurately modeled compared to real life and usually all those non DD or DE vessels are rather poor ASW platforms due to their low experience. But have them moving around for some time and get some attacks and they will hit one of the magic experience levels that makes them very deadly because then they´ve got the needed experience and twice the number of DC a destroyer has got. That may be the problem..., the game rewards numbers of DC's instead of ability to put them on target. By that reasoning a Liberty ship with 10,000 DC's should be an awesome ASW vessel---and we all know that's a bunch of nonsense.

I do feel your pain about E as I´m on the receiving end of them too and I guess I haven´t faced the 14 ASW value E vessels so far.




Bomber -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 1:09:32 PM)

Also,back when I played WitP it seemed like some aircraft models did better than others at ASW (I used to like Lillies). However I dont notice any difference in performance between aircraft in AE.
Sooooo I try to use aircraft with the biggest payload.

Da bigger da bomb,da badder da blast!



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 1:17:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

ASW rating is not telling whole truth about ASW capability. It is good guide, but it is just the number of ASW weapons without any detail about weapon capabilities. Some DCs and systems like Mousetrap/Hedgehog can be lot more deadlier and accurate than other systems.



So I'm told..., but I'm going by the results, and these "Escorts" are far too deadly in the game by historical standards. Hopefully someone on the design staff will take a close look at them one of these days. [:(]


I'm with you. I think in my first game the record was 54 hits on one of my subs in a 1-on-1 ASW encounter in late 1944. Whacky.

ASW got so bad (good?) that I withdrew 50-60 fleet boats back to PH for three months, and parked them at the pier. I was losing 2-3 per week.



Misconduct -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 1:59:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

ASW rating is not telling whole truth about ASW capability. It is good guide, but it is just the number of ASW weapons without any detail about weapon capabilities. Some DCs and systems like Mousetrap/Hedgehog can be lot more deadlier and accurate than other systems.



So I'm told..., but I'm going by the results, and these "Escorts" are far too deadly in the game by historical standards. Hopefully someone on the design staff will take a close look at them one of these days. [:(]


The ASW is only as good as the captain of the boat. For instance, I have a few dozen PB ASW groups that are practically useless. The E groups I have now, have no ASW rating. Now the Scout Craft seem to have a better choice in commanders, most of them I have with Naval attack over 65exp.

So in short, if you give a DD a very aggressive commander, he will likely do more damage then a battleship with a crappy commander. So far I am noticing how bad the japanese ASW is right now. And there isn't any commanders available to help with the situation except for those in the scout crafts.



Amoral -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 3:42:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bomber

Also,back when I played WitP it seemed like some aircraft models did better than others at ASW (I used to like Lillies). However I dont notice any difference in performance between aircraft in AE.
Sooooo I try to use aircraft with the biggest payload.

Da bigger da bomb,da badder da blast!


I have read that the factor that makes a bomber a good ASW platform is if it carries 4 x small bomb or 2 x larger bombs. Small bombs still are fatal to a sub, so more attacks is better. Thus, Idas and Lillies should make good early sub killers.



Misconduct -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 3:49:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Amoral


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bomber

Also,back when I played WitP it seemed like some aircraft models did better than others at ASW (I used to like Lillies). However I dont notice any difference in performance between aircraft in AE.
Sooooo I try to use aircraft with the biggest payload.

Da bigger da bomb,da badder da blast!


I have read that the factor that makes a bomber a good ASW platform is if it carries 4 x small bomb or 2 x larger bombs. Small bombs still are fatal to a sub, so more attacks is better. Thus, Idas and Lillies should make good early sub killers.


Correct, small bombs will cause flooding damage, given the range the subs have to operate, one small hit will do as much damage as trying to put a 250kg bomb on a sub. Granted between the Ki-48 and Ki-21, I pretty much switched over 80% of them to Ki-21's



Shark7 -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 3:54:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Amoral


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bomber

Also,back when I played WitP it seemed like some aircraft models did better than others at ASW (I used to like Lillies). However I dont notice any difference in performance between aircraft in AE.
Sooooo I try to use aircraft with the biggest payload.

Da bigger da bomb,da badder da blast!


I have read that the factor that makes a bomber a good ASW platform is if it carries 4 x small bomb or 2 x larger bombs. Small bombs still are fatal to a sub, so more attacks is better. Thus, Idas and Lillies should make good early sub killers.


It also helps to have radar equipped planes. The radar equipped Nells are a good choice for ASW a well.

ASW works best when you combine surface patrols with air patrols.

For those losing so many ships to the E boats, I have to ask...where exactly is this happening? Shallow coastal water or deep blue water?



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 3:58:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

For those losing so many ships to the E boats, I have to ask...where exactly is this happening? Shallow coastal water or deep blue water?


Deep blue, with COs of 2+ years experience in some cases. The attacks seemed binary. Either the sub got away clean, or it got vaporized. Pretty much 100% hits. I lost subs to 2-ship convoys--one xAKL and one E. That would have been a trivial attack in late 1944--early 1945 in deep water with a Balao-class and excellent radar.



Shark7 -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 4:02:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

For those losing so many ships to the E boats, I have to ask...where exactly is this happening? Shallow coastal water or deep blue water?


Deep blue, with COs of 2+ years experience in some cases. The attacks seemed binary. Either the sub got away clean, or it got vaporized. Pretty much 100% hits. I lost subs to 2-ship convoys--one xAKL and one E. That would have been a trivial attack in late 1944--early 1945 in deep water with a Balao-class and excellent radar.


Then something does seem to be amiss, though I do have to wonder at the E boats experience. Getting it into a lot of action versus say...PT boats...where you have a good chance of winning for little risk would certainly boost the xp levels. Overall it might be an area in need of tweaking, by taking the late war Japanese ship crew experience down a few points on initial arrival.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 4:26:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

For those losing so many ships to the E boats, I have to ask...where exactly is this happening? Shallow coastal water or deep blue water?


Deep blue, with COs of 2+ years experience in some cases. The attacks seemed binary. Either the sub got away clean, or it got vaporized. Pretty much 100% hits. I lost subs to 2-ship convoys--one xAKL and one E. That would have been a trivial attack in late 1944--early 1945 in deep water with a Balao-class and excellent radar.


Then something does seem to be amiss, though I do have to wonder at the E boats experience. Getting it into a lot of action versus say...PT boats...where you have a good chance of winning for little risk would certainly boost the xp levels. Overall it might be an area in need of tweaking, by taking the late war Japanese ship crew experience down a few points on initial arrival.


I entered that era coincident with a major patch (3 I think), so I never knew if it was the patch or WAD all along. Experience is nice, but some of those subs had two years of experience too, and great COs. I've never looked at the editor for E stats, but if they're really 14s, and ASW-designed DEs are 11s, that's just wrong IMO. Allied sonar, gear and especially training, was head & shoulders better than the IJN by late 1944. If a DE is an 11, no platform in the game should be a 14.



Shark7 -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 5:16:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

For those losing so many ships to the E boats, I have to ask...where exactly is this happening? Shallow coastal water or deep blue water?


Deep blue, with COs of 2+ years experience in some cases. The attacks seemed binary. Either the sub got away clean, or it got vaporized. Pretty much 100% hits. I lost subs to 2-ship convoys--one xAKL and one E. That would have been a trivial attack in late 1944--early 1945 in deep water with a Balao-class and excellent radar.


Then something does seem to be amiss, though I do have to wonder at the E boats experience. Getting it into a lot of action versus say...PT boats...where you have a good chance of winning for little risk would certainly boost the xp levels. Overall it might be an area in need of tweaking, by taking the late war Japanese ship crew experience down a few points on initial arrival.


I entered that era coincident with a major patch (3 I think), so I never knew if it was the patch or WAD all along. Experience is nice, but some of those subs had two years of experience too, and great COs. I've never looked at the editor for E stats, but if they're really 14s, and ASW-designed DEs are 11s, that's just wrong IMO. Allied sonar, gear and especially training, was head & shoulders better than the IJN by late 1944. If a DE is an 11, no platform in the game should be a 14.


Well it is all based on the designs. By 1943-1944, the Japanese were stuffing as many DC racks and Y-guns on the escorts as they could fit...with lots of reloads.

And here is a comparison of a US Buckley class DE vs a Kaibokan Type C escort, both circa 1943 and the late war Ukuru class Escort circa 1944.

USS Buckley:

1 x Hedgehog
8 x K-gun DCT
2 x DC Rack

200 total DC

Kaibokan Type C:

1 x 80mm (3.1 Inch) mortar
12 x Type 3 DCT
1 DC Rack

120 DC total.

As you can see, they are quite similar, but the Kaibokan might have a slight edge due to the additional DCTs. Arguably the 80mm mortar was useless, you'd have to almost get a direct hit...the hedgehog has a huge advantage there. In the 1943 category, the edge goes to the Buckley.

However, you get into 1944 with the Ukuru:

1 x 80mm mortar
16 x type 3 DCT
2 x DC Rack

120 total DCs.

Pretty heavy throw weight there. Particularly the number of DCTs. I'd have to say edge goes to Ukuru here over the older Buckley. USN DEs did not get any better than this with DC throwers or racks...all later designs had the same ASW suite as Buckley.

Just a little comparison of them.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 6:14:34 PM)

Weapon counts are a distant second to sensors. If you can localize him and then fix him all you need is one Hedgehog salvo. In modern ASW, only one weapon is normally used. Yes, they home, but they're also dumped on the sub's head.

USN sonar was just better. It was built to tight QA standards, not in paper-shacks with dirt floors. It had years of R&D behind it. And by 1944 all the lessons of the Battle of the Atlantic had flowed through the training pipelines to the PTO.

Balao boats were also very much more advanced than the Salmon and P- and T-classes at the start of the war. Thicker hulls, better DC design, way better trained crews, also better sonar for evasion. Historic sinking numbers per encounter bear this out. At no time was the USN losing 2-3 boats a WEEK.



Feltan -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 6:53:52 PM)

Bullwinkle,

I will agree with you about the lower sinking levels IRL.

However, if I am not mistaken, wasn't the U.S. doing carrier raids on and near the Home Islands by late 1944? IRL, I wonder how many of these E class boats got the opportunity to even engage U.S. submarines?

I am wondering if what some of you are seeing a "what if," as in, what if these "E" ships hadn't all been sunk by U.S. aircraft this is what things might have been like.

? Just thinking outloud ?

Regards,
Feltan



mike scholl 1 -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 6:59:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7
For those losing so many ships to the E boats, I have to ask...where exactly is this happening? Shallow coastal water or deep blue water?



In my case, the great majority have been in deep blue water..., though now that I'm closing in on Japan (November 1944) I'm having to use more subs in shallow water to cut the routes from China.



Rainer79 -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 6:59:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Weapon counts are a distant second to sensors. If you can localize him and then fix him all you need is one Hedgehog salvo. In modern ASW, only one weapon is normally used. Yes, they home, but they're also dumped on the sub's head.


The raw ASW count is not the whole story and the IJN does get penalized.

From the manual:
"Prior to 1944, Allied crews perform ASW functions during daylight at 114% of their crew rating, and at night at 150% of their crew rating (except for British crews which get no bonus at night as they generally already have extra high night experience). Prior to 1943, Japanese crews perform their ASW functions at 67% of their crew rating, while in 1943 and thereafter they perform at 80% of their crew rating."



mike scholl 1 -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 7:02:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Weapon counts are a distant second to sensors. If you can localize him and then fix him all you need is one Hedgehog salvo. In modern ASW, only one weapon is normally used. Yes, they home, but they're also dumped on the sub's head.

USN sonar was just better. It was built to tight QA standards, not in paper-shacks with dirt floors. It had years of R&D behind it. And by 1944 all the lessons of the Battle of the Atlantic had flowed through the training pipelines to the PTO.

Balao boats were also very much more advanced than the Salmon and P- and T-classes at the start of the war. Thicker hulls, better DC design, way better trained crews, also better sonar for evasion. Historic sinking numbers per encounter bear this out. At no time was the USN losing 2-3 boats a WEEK.



Exactly! The current system with it's weight towards number of DC's is like comparing the accuracy of a sawed off 10-guage shotgun to a scoped sniper rifle based on the size of the slug.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 7:33:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainer79

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Weapon counts are a distant second to sensors. If you can localize him and then fix him all you need is one Hedgehog salvo. In modern ASW, only one weapon is normally used. Yes, they home, but they're also dumped on the sub's head.


The raw ASW count is not the whole story and the IJN does get penalized.

From the manual:
"Prior to 1944, Allied crews perform ASW functions during daylight at 114% of their crew rating, and at night at 150% of their crew rating (except for British crews which get no bonus at night as they generally already have extra high night experience). Prior to 1943, Japanese crews perform their ASW functions at 67% of their crew rating, while in 1943 and thereafter they perform at 80% of their crew rating."


Even more head scratching over the E numbers then.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 7:37:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

Bullwinkle,

I will agree with you about the lower sinking levels IRL.

However, if I am not mistaken, wasn't the U.S. doing carrier raids on and near the Home Islands by late 1944? IRL, I wonder how many of these E class boats got the opportunity to even engage U.S. submarines?

I am wondering if what some of you are seeing a "what if," as in, what if these "E" ships hadn't all been sunk by U.S. aircraft this is what things might have been like.

? Just thinking outloud ?



In 1944 a fair number of boats were in and around major island ops like the Marianas, but many game players, it seems from AARs, park way ahistorically too many boats right off the HI. Right up to the end a lot of patrols were to Formosa, Indo-China, Sumatra etc. The tanker war took place from summer 1944 to early 1945. Most of these patrols were not under Allied air cover. Now, by spring of 1945, yeah, patrol reports were full of sampans and a lack of any targets, partly due to air campaign sinkings, but not in 1944.




JWE -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 8:34:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I entered that era coincident with a major patch (3 I think), so I never knew if it was the patch or WAD all along. Experience is nice, but some of those subs had two years of experience too, and great COs. I've never looked at the editor for E stats, but if they're really 14s, and ASW-designed DEs are 11s, that's just wrong IMO. Allied sonar, gear and especially training, was head & shoulders better than the IJN by late 1944. If a DE is an 11, no platform in the game should be a 14.

ASW “rating” is nothing more than the number of launchers. Yes, 14 is bigger than 11. But 30 AA is also bigger than 15 AA. But when the 30 is 7.7mm machine guns and the 15 is 40mm Bofors??? Same with ASW. "Rating" is a good thing to look at (within a Nationality) to see what's the better escort for a convoy. Japan 14 is better than Japan 11, and so on. But it is rather misplaced to compare Japan 14 to Allied 11.

Japanese DCs are less capable than Allied DCs – a data thing (see, e.g., DaBabes). As to hydrophones, asdic, sonar, doctrine, whatever, the effects of these things are modeled in code. Allied ASW “capability” grows significantly on a regular basis, with respect to Japan. Increased “capability” includes % chance to detect, % chance to engage, % chance to hit, and with a whopping better weapon.

14 (or even 30) pea shooters don’t cut it against 11 Browning pump 12-gagues.

And all the leader and experience stats are overlayed on top of all this.

@mike scholl 1
yes, “So you have been told …”, and I’m here to tell you the same thing again. I am like Don, I am no longer “official”, but I do get the latest source and I do know my math.

We have taken a seriously close look at this for DaBabes. We have made some tweaks, but for primarily for the sake of uniformity. The math and the nominal results work just fine, for us, and for the majority of the 200+ players that use the Babes scenarios.



CapAndGown -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 8:38:37 PM)

I am afraid that despite the OP's plea that this thread not be about whether ASW is modeled correctly, those are the only responses so far. So let me at least provide the answers I have seen:

The best ships are ones with Type 2 depth charges. The A/S mortar does not seem to do much of anything since the ships that carry it prefer do shoot off their DCs instead.

It would seem based on the above discussion that having multiple DC racks is better. A number of ships come with 3 racks, others with 2. These would be better since they give you more chances to hit.

High crew experience can help a lot. I think good captains can help too.

Personally, I like the Otori class TBs. Get their experience up by attacking PT boats early on, then convert them to E class. The Shimushu class E boats seem to be pretty good too since their base experience level seems to be higher. The Ch-13 class SCs will eventually get Type 2 DCs and surface radar. Not sure if they are any good because of their low speed and low experience. But at least you get a lot of them and should be able to flood the zone. In this case, I would imagine that a Darwinian "survival of the fittest" process should eventually yield a hand full of very good ships.



Shark7 -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 8:57:15 PM)

Since modern ASW has been mentioned thought I'd give a quick synopsis on the difference between modern and WWII style ASW in case some aren't familiar with it.

World War 2 you practically have to be on top of the sub to engage it...your greatest range was going to be a mortar, hedgehog or DCT so all contacts were prosecuted within 1 nm or so of the attacking ship...or if you are lucky you have an aircraft close enough to try and attack the sub.

In a modern ASW engagement, you can have a DDG, FFG or CG that has up to 3 CZ passive sonar capability (CZ = Convergence Zone) and usually carries one or two helicoptors on board with hangar facilities to service them. The initial contact can be made up to 100 nm from the ship with passive sonar. Once you make the contact, you usually launch a helicoptor or two, a land base ASW aircraft or a stand-off rocket thrown torpedo to engage it. If you have a good lock, and it is in range, the rocket thrown torpedo is the best choice because it arrives quickly, and it can not be easily detected by a submerged sub until splashdown. Second best choice is the Helicoptor and the next best choice is the land based ASW aircraft...they can localize and attack once they have a search area. The sub isn't helpless though, they do have countermeasures (noisemakers) to try and spoof the torpedoes seeker.

Basically there is no comparison between the two. In a modern ASW combat, the 'attacking' ship may never be in harms way, its aircraft or rocket thrown torpedoes allow it to engage from beyond the sub's torpedo range.

The closest thing to WWII in the modern environment would be Cold War Era Russian or Chinese coastal patrol boats...they are basically just glorified subchasers and pretty much fight WWII style, though with better weapons (active homing torpedoes and anti-submarine rockets).



JWE -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 8:59:12 PM)

whoops, bad post



Nikademus -> RE: Best IJN ASW assets? (9/9/2010 10:38:31 PM)

No Cheetos for U!



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