Bomber vs. Fighter (Full Version)

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jerryandlinda -> Bomber vs. Fighter (8/23/2002 11:25:52 AM)

Why don't B-17's get more kills of Japanese fighters? Granted, the zekes are faster and much more nimble, but the 8th AirForce proved bombers can shoot down a few fighters



denisonh -> (8/23/2002 11:29:57 AM)

You should see kills when you have a large number of B-17s in the raid(like 20). You won't see that many, if any, with a smaller number in the raid (like 6). There are a lot of factors that affect the outcome, but this is a big one.



Drongo -> (8/23/2002 12:10:00 PM)

In a PBEM last night, I surprised a raid of 16 B17E's and 6 F4F's (won't say how as my opponent can read) with over 80 zeros at 6000ft in light cloudy conditions. The F4F's were brushed aside for almost no loss but 4 zeros were downed and 1 damaged engaging the bombers. 1 B17E was downed, several damaged. The IJN pilots were still top notch (we're 7 weeks in to scen 15). The US pilots would still be close to their initial experience level they start the game with (60-65).

[QUOTE]Why don't B-17's get more kills of Japanese fighters? Granted, the zekes are faster and much more nimble, but the 8th AirForce proved bombers can shoot down a few fighters[/QUOTE]

>5 to 1 odds IJN favour, no real fighter escort and top line CAP against average crews. Result 4 to 1 kill ratio in B17's favour. And it only gets worse from here.

Give me a break!!!! ;)



denisonh -> (8/23/2002 8:05:23 PM)

I think a good number of B-17 sqns start with an experience rating in excess of 70.



McDuck -> (8/31/2002 11:45:50 AM)

The flip side of the coin is also very frustrating . A handful of IJN fighters and twin engine bombers attack your CV or fast BB taskforce . Lots of AA and 5 to 1 in cap or LBA Cap . A slaughter ? Not a chance . Usually half get through and more often than not register a hit . That they're on the deck and have to thread their way past your escorts , hopefully suffering flak disruption along the way , seems to have little effect . I don't know what a CV's or fast BB's evasion rating is against a couple of torpedoes but it seems to be quite poor . Co-ordinated strikes of DB's and TB's with lots of bombs falling and fish in the water is another matter but how these small strikes can enjoy such consistient success makes me wonder what i'm doing wrong .
adios ... HMcS



Drongo -> (8/31/2002 12:52:17 PM)

McDuck,

I'm not sure whether you played prior to patch 1.20 but it used to be worse with 3 plane elements consistently (in a lot of player opinion) slipping through masses of CAP untouched and always seeming to put a torp in your CV.

I've played it a bit since and the only time now my massed (100+) CAP fails to defeat a small enemy strike is when :

1) Weather is poor (even just cloudy can do it).
2) CAP fatigue is high. If they're kept operating at a high CAP % for too long (or if LRCAP, too long and too far away from base), this can happen even without any combat.
3) Bad Luck? Every now and then (rarely), despite everything, one will sneak through (but should still be roughed up a bit on the way).

In terms of torpedo attacks
1) Are we talking AA from escorts that still have their original armament (some weren't that impressive).
1) Initially, most of the early IJN LBA torpedo bomber pilots are top notch (80-90) and could get hits from small numbers.
2) If the CV's getting hits are Lexington and Saratoga, it could be understandable as they are the least maueverable of all the CV's (15).

If your CAP is numerous and in good shape, the weather is ok to good, you have a dozen or more of the best AA ships for escort, CV's other than the 2 mentioned are hit and it is regularly occurring after a lot of the top IJN LBA pilots should be gone, then FIIK!!!

I've never actually had the expectation to smash every strike that comes at me. CAP will always tend to leak somewhat (it also makes for pretty exciting viewing (and swearing) during the strike resolution phase.)



McDuck -> (9/1/2002 2:19:04 AM)

Hi Drongo , Thank you for the insight and advice . Swearing ? Yes , lots and lots of swearing . And storming out of the room while swearing . Or walking down the hallway on the way to the kitchen to make another coffee and swearing . One episode against the A.I. particularly tweaked me - it's in early 43 and my BB taskforce is at Gili Gili under some P-38's . They're on their way to Kirwana the next day and then Rabaul to bombard or to the Shortlands to take on the IJN bombardment group that slips in and out . Lot's of 5 38's , 40mm's and 20mm's across the fleet but it is cloudy . 8 unescorted Nells from Rabaul come in , evade my 24 P-38's and put a torp in the North Carolina . Well , good for the IJNAF . Must have been my fault for not having enough cap on hand and the roll of the dice . North Carolina gets disbanded and the rest of the fleet carries on . The next day my second BB group gets to Gili Gili from Cairns on the same mission . This time it's the South Dakota and the Washinton surrounded by escorts . Another cloudy day . 9 Nells this time with my P-38's doing lazy 8's god only knows where . Now the Washington gets disbanded and joins the North Carolina . I save the game and reload as the Japanese a couple of turns earlier so i can have a look at that airgroup before and after each turn . Experience in the 60's and moral in the 50's . I guess i should consider myself lucky these weren't the elite pilots . Once i calmed down , usually within 24 hours , i tried to be philosophical about it - this is total B.S. - okay , wait another day . What did i do wrong - i could have had more fighters based there and set their altitudes lower due to the weather . I should have sent in a CL , DD force first to see if it would attract any airstrikes before i risked a capital ship . The A.I. will punish you for being careless and could this have happened once , yes , i don't doubt it , but two turns in a row ... . This isn't like a DB popping out of the clouds - these guys make their runs on the deck . Everybody has radar - ships , base forces et al . I can only assume that the gun crews must be standing at the railings throwing bricks . Does this sound like sour grapes - you bet ! I'm sure Nagumo had an even bigger b***h . I'm still shaking my head over this but i'm also still playing ! Cheers ... HMcS



McDuck -> (9/1/2002 4:28:06 AM)

Hi Drongo , Do you feel the LBA cap would have performed better if it had of been assigned LRcap over the fleet even though the range would have been 0 ? Each hex represents 30 miles , or around 700 sq miles so i guess it's alot to expect 24 P-38's to cover the base and a task force . The more i reflect on this it could be a major reason why my cap seemed so ineffective . Have you noticed any difference in the effectiveness of cap over ships within the base hex depending on whether it is a general cap or LRcap tasked to that specific fleet ? Looks like there is more than meets the eye at first glance with this game - again . HMcS



Luskan -> Large altitude difference? (9/1/2002 8:52:09 AM)

In my head to head game I tried to outfox my opponent's bombers I covered the ships (assign LRCAP to the TF) in my port with huge numbers of fighters - all of them had just had three days of 0% training and were high morale troops. 20 P38's were at 15000ft, while there were 12 p39s at 10000ft (they suffer a penalty above this, otherwise I'd have put them up in the rafters with the 38's so they could dive on the approaching air raid.

Now, when the strike came, 10 zeros and 10 betties, it was down on the deck1000ft approach, tehn drop torpedos at 200ft etc. Watching the combat, the P38's kept diving on the fighters and bombers, but never fired a shot (Alright - I don't know this, but they didn't get a damage or a kill so the animations didn't show them firing). The p39's on the other hand tangled with the zeros and came off worse. Only 1 torpedo hit on an AP.

The subsequent raid that day was 8 unescorted nells, who came in on the deck again. Again, the p39's engaged, didn't do terribly well, but the p39s didn't engage.


I'm wondering three things.
1. Is it just because the p38's wouldn't have picked up the low flying aircraft - radar operators didn't vector them in properly, didn't see them, even though it was clear (is hard to look down in an aeroplane). You know, something circumstantial to do with not detecting a threat because you're 14000ft higher.

2. Could it be that CAP is scrambled when a raid is picked up on radar. Low flying bombers are picked up later on radar than earlier - and the fighters won't engage until they reach their preselected altitude? (IE. the combat algorithm makes the planes climb as fast as they can, THEN look for targets - even though they climbed right past them a minute ago). Maybe this is why they escaped the p38s.

3. Not sure what my third point was, but I seem to be wondering about a great many more than three things . . .



Drongo -> (9/1/2002 9:55:31 AM)

Posted by McDuck
[QUOTE]Hi Drongo , Do you feel the LBA cap would have performed better if it had of been assigned LRcap over the fleet even though the range would have been 0 ? Each hex represents 30 miles , or around 700 sq miles so i guess it's alot to expect 24 P-38's to cover the base and a task force . The more i reflect on this it could be a major reason why my cap seemed so ineffective . Have you noticed any difference in the effectiveness of cap over ships within the base hex depending on whether it is a general cap or LRcap tasked to that specific fleet ? Looks like there is more than meets the eye at first glance with this game - again . HMcS[/QUOTE]

Dear Poor Bastard,

I think you just happen to be holding the rough end of the stick. From what you said in your example, you had done enough to minimise the chance of suffering this type of result regularly. Unfortunately, the AI didn't think so.

The following are not a solution but just what I would be looking at (from previous experience). This is after I have finished swearing (normally, at least 60 min worth).

1) Did Gilli Gilli have radar capability? I know the ships do but I think it's the base radar that plays the dominant role in directing LBA fighters in its hex.

2) What is the fatigue/morale/exp/leadership of the fighters? Make sure they're the best you can (you prob have any way).

3) It sounded like you had only one squadron of P38's. If you know the AI doesn't like you having ships at Gilli Gilli, you should bring in more fighters (duh). You are right in saying that your fighters are spread out. The more you have, the better the coverage (duh again). :) Realistically, you're lucky you weren't on the receiving end of larger, escorted strikes. If I was going to stage high value ships out of Gilli Gilli, I would have a large, radar equiped base there and about 3-4 fighter squadrons. Even if your single P38 squadron intercepted the 8 or 9 IJN torpedo bombers, some would normally still get through. It only takes one (more swearing).

3) IMO, I don't think there is any diff between targeting your LRCAP at Gilli Gilli or the TF at Gilli Gilli. Any attack at that location will be met by your fighters (whether they intercept is another matter). Might be worth testing for yourself. Someone else might have specific knowledge on this situation. Don't use general CAP in this situation as you obviously need all your fighters in action while your ships are there. Only LRCAP allows you 100% comittment.

4) If possible, put a couple of diversionary TF's at Gilli Gilli to help in diverting the enemy strikes. These TF's don't need anything other than a few DD's (or SC's, whatever).

5) Don't swear in front of your PC (leave the room). Always talk to it in a quiet yet friendly manner. If it thinks it can't yank your chain, it may give up and just give you logical combat results (even to the point of launching airstrikes on clear, sunny days).

Good Luck



Drongo -> (9/1/2002 10:05:41 AM)

Luskan,

I remember that it was mentioned in one of the patches that high altitude CAP was suffering heavily in effectiveness when diving down to intercept bombers at a lower altitude. It was supposedly fixed. I'm not sure whether this means they suffer no penalty now or that they still do but it has been reduced. From what you said, it sounds like there is actually some penalty.



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