RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (Full Version)

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dudalb_slith -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 2:54:41 AM)

I don't mind the digital download if you can back it up on a CD or DVD like you Can At Matrix or Good Old Games,where the download is simply a method of delivery.
But the DRM requiring on line Activiation sucks, and is a deal breaker for me. And, as pointed out, little though seems to have been given for Tech Support .
I will only be buying a John Tiller game if it is on a topic I really want.



dudalb_slith -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 3:00:59 AM)

HPS does have some games that are not Tiller designs..the Ancient and Musket and PIke series for example.
But, yeah, this will hurt them...and Tiller I suspect.
Seems to me that Tiller might know a lot about design but have been very badly advised as to how to set up a game distribution system.
Sad that he seems to be taking EA and VIvendi games as a marketing model as far as DM goes. Those two companies are big enough so they can get away with a certain amount of F*** you to customers, but a small operation like TIller's can't do that.



Adam Parker -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 4:02:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pvthudson01

Never thought I would see the day but he has released Kharkov 43 as a DIGITAL DOWNLOAD.

Im all over this sorry to post this but I felt the other wargamers had to know (I buy a ton of Matrix games too!). I think it is kinda cool.


Thank you so much for this amazing HEADS UP! I'm sure that Matrix won't mind the service you've offered to us gamers at all [:)]

Couple of points having just followed the various links and read the story at GameSquad followed by visiting the new Tiller software site:

1. This is the first and only (as far as I'm aware) PC game covering the 1943 Kharkov Campaign at any level.

2. Whilst it looks pure retro Panzer Campaigns to me, the unit art is a marked improvement on past efforts - seekingly trying to match the quality found in the Osprey Volcano Man art packs it seems.

3. The DRM here looks to be less obtrusive than running Norton Antivirus! A one time activation. No need for web connection after that, unless uninstalling and wanting to later load on another machine. Me? I'd prefer to have a digital download with this type of DRM than have to run with a disc always in my system. Run out of activations? Just contact JTS's customer service they say (well, there you go - JTS in now an official acronym with me!).

4. It's only $39.95 on release!

5. I have no doubt that the AI will still struggle but for head to head or solo hotseat, this game is worth putting off buying a boardgame like GMT's soon to be released Barbarossa Series: "Crimea '41" - if monster-style wargaming is your thing.

6. Interestingly, the PC wargame market via digital download is set to boom (well get better [;)] ) in 2011 with GMT Games itself, entering the fray with PC versions of it killer "Twilight Struggle" and just released War on Terror inspired card driven game - "Labyrinth": GMT Announces New PC Games

7. This is a great day for the hobby - and won't in any way prevent me from buying Matrix's War in the East - if anything, it may inspire a desire to want to play it more. The Third Battle of Kharkov is a much missed void in our hobby PC or board game (I think Mark Simonitch's "Ukraine '43" covers it as an example of the latter), it's a highly complex campaign that would have taxed anybody involved in its research and scenario design. The good old names of the John Tiller team are all over this one, particularly Glenn Saunders (master scen builder though project coordinator here), Dave Blackburn who has maps in his blood and Rick Bancroft who has been synonymous with the Panzer Campaigns venture for years now as a fan and contributor - Rick appears to be the man behind the OOB's here. I'm not familiar with the names credited with this game's scenario design (David Freer, Eric Baker, and Phil Niven) but let's see what they've come up with hey?

In summary, board or PC, this has been a great year for wargamers - viva 2011! For reading try:

Nipe, Last Victory in Russia, Schiffer Publishing.

Glantz, After Stalingrad, Helion. May be a hard find in some areas right now pending release of its paperback.

EDIT: Red Highlight - I no longer agree with that statememt as noted below. A player should have unlimited activations on his/her game purchases, just like unlimited access to patches and support (which are not issues here but "givens"). It would be like Microsoft telling me I can no longer load Office 2003 because Office 20007 was now available for XP. Wish this forum had a cross-out button [:)]



pvthudson01 -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 10:38:33 AM)

http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/showthread.php?tid=57499

quote:

Guys:

John has decided to alter the DRM Code to allow for two PC instances so players who move between a main PC and a laptop will be able to do so.

The code for this has been written but it needs to be tested and we'll start that tomorrow with the idea being to make it available later in the day if all goes well. The change doesn't affect the copy of the game that people may have downloaded already - the change is on John's server end

If you have already got your game installed and want to be one of the first to try a second install on your other PC, drop me a line and I will contact you when the code is ready to go.

Thanks for all your comments today - rest assure we read them all and respect the opinions of the community.

Glenn




rwenstrup -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 11:59:55 AM)

The quick response to the issue helps...but the two installs misses the point. The OWNER of the game does not want to have to contact a company that may...or may not be in existence/open today/still supporting the game...to install a product they own.

DRM...the computer software industries seal of approval for companies headed for extinction...



E -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 12:30:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

3. The DRM here looks to be less obtrusive than running Norton Antivirus!



What a sales pitch! (ROFL... Kind of like saying 'It's better than poking BOTH your eyes with stick! Buy it now!')

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

Me? I'd prefer to have a digital download with this type of DRM than have to run with a disc always in my system.


Have you considered another option/preference? ...NEITHER!

(However, with a disc system, at least you don't need internet access nor the company to still exist.)




pvthudson01 -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 12:32:34 PM)

I think you are blowing this way out of proportion and are a doomsayer but that is just me. I have never had any issues with it, John addressed it, this is 2010 not 1995. You have to take steps to prevent piracy. Get used to it, digital is the way to go. If you dont use things like Steam, Impulse or services like that you are just behind the times and are in for a sorry gaming life when you have to go into a Gamestop years from now and look at their slim selection of PC titles and whine about how they dont stock boxes with CD's anymore. Just like I dont use VHS or DVD's anymore for movies. Times are changing and either you are with it or you are a naggy dinosaur. You can pick the path you choose. JTS isnt going anywhere. I know how to log in and get my serial number if I need it, and I am sure other people are not idiots as well and can figure it out.

Every Matrix title I own is a digital download. You dont see me bitching. Every Battlefront Title I own is a digital download. Are they going out of business to?

2 installs is fine and I am glad John and crew at least addressed the issue.

Pull the stick out of your butts and learn to use a PC and the things the internet offers



Titanwarrior89 -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 12:57:44 PM)

I boardgame as much as I Computer game. Yes there is another option. I SEE you bitching about their bitching so stop bitching....[;)]
quote:

ORIGINAL: pvthudson01

I think you are blowing this way out of proportion and are a doomsayer but that is just me. I have never had any issues with it, John addressed it, this is 2010 not 1995. You have to take steps to prevent piracy. Get used to it, digital is the way to go. If you dont use things like Steam, Impulse or services like that you are just behind the times and are in for a sorry gaming life when you have to go into a Gamestop years from now and look at their slim selection of PC titles and whine about how they dont stock boxes with CD's anymore. Just like I dont use VHS or DVD's anymore for movies. Times are changing and either you are with it or you are a naggy dinosaur. You can pick the path you choose. JTS isnt going anywhere. I know how to log in and get my serial number if I need it, and I am sure other people are not idiots as well and can figure it out.

Every Matrix title I own is a digital download. You dont see me bitching. Every Battlefront Title I own is a digital download. Are they going out of business to?

2 installs is fine and I am glad John and crew at least addressed the issue.

Pull the stick out of your butts and learn to use a PC and the things the internet offers




Note: I am still looking for that Stick......Haven't found it yet but don't give up hope.[&:][X(] By the way thanks for the link.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 1:09:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pvthudson01
I think you are blowing this way out of proportion and are a doomsayer but that is just me. I have never had any issues with it, John addressed it, this is 2010 not 1995. You have to take steps to prevent piracy. Get used to it, digital is the way to go. If you dont use things like Steam, Impulse or services like that you are just behind the times and are in for a sorry gaming life when you have to go into a Gamestop years from now and look at their slim selection of PC titles and whine about how they dont stock boxes with CD's anymore. Just like I dont use VHS or DVD's anymore for movies. Times are changing and either you are with it or you are a naggy dinosaur. You can pick the path you choose. JTS isnt going anywhere. I know how to log in and get my serial number if I need it, and I am sure other people are not idiots as well and can figure it out.

Every Matrix title I own is a digital download. You dont see me bitching. Every Battlefront Title I own is a digital download. Are they going out of business to?

2 installs is fine and I am glad John and crew at least addressed the issue.

Pull the stick out of your butts and learn to use a PC and the things the internet offers


No personal attacks. Consider this a warning.

Please keep things civil everyone, feel free to discuss and comment but do not make things personal and remember that we do not allow bashing of other developers/publishers here either.

Regards,

- Erik



Adam Parker -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 1:14:14 PM)

Deleted - excellent timing Erik [;)]



Yogi the Great -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 1:21:34 PM)

[sm=00000946.gif]

As far as the rest of you ??????

[sm=00000622.gif]

As old antiquated behind the times person who also isn't too bad at computers

I still like having the CD
I don't care for Digital Download Only
I like the idea Matrix often uses of offering both
I don't like having to have Internet accounts to play a game
I do like being able to get internet patch fixes (Even though the game should have been released without the need for patches to begin with)
I do like to be able buy from more then one source (competition price control)
I already can't find many computer games I like in the stores among all the Wii, playstation, x-box junk
I appreciate the games from Tiller/HPS as among my favorites just as I appreciate Matrix



E -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 1:29:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pvthudson01

Every Matrix title I own is a digital download. You dont see me bitching.



You're arguing your opposition's point. Matrix is a shining example of non-intrusive DRM that doesn't punish the customer just to temporarily inconvenience pirates.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pvthudson01
Every Battlefront Title I own is a digital download. Are they going out of business too?



Let's put it this way... "Big Time Software" did (for all intents and purposes).
(if you miss that connection, you may not be in a position to thoroughly debate this issue).



Adam Parker -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 1:51:07 PM)

E, do you remember this post of yours earlier this year?

quote:

JULY THIS YEAR: E

If anybody gets Crusader working, please let me know how... I tried and tried and tried several years ago... it's one of a few games I can no longer run.


So owning a disc rather than digitially downloading will not guarantee you a successfully running program whenever you want it as you claim.

Your argument about DRM is also about 5 hours overtaken by events. The company has adjusted its DRM policy.


quote:



ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

I do like to be able buy from more then one source (competition price control)


Very interesting point. NWS a great supporter of HPS and a catalyst for communication regarding its games, looks to be cut out of the loop now doesn't it?



Yogi the Great -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 1:59:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

quote:



ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

I do like to be able buy from more then one source (competition price control)


Very interesting point. NWS a great supporter of HPS and a catalyst for communication regarding its games, looks to be cut out of the loop now doesn't it?



Yes I was wondering about that. While $39.95 sounds good to some and is about $10 less then the usual HPS regular price for games (same as usual HPS introductory price) I usually purchased from NWS where the usual price for an HPS game is $29.99.



Lützow -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 2:28:37 PM)

I'n not against digital distributions, actually it can be more convenient if you live on the other side of the pond. Was considering to purchase Kharkov eventually, until I got informed about the DRM. I never had to re-download a Matrix title (always burn it on DVD's) and don't play on more than one computer, but it's good to know that it would be possible at least. On the other hand, I still fire JTCS every now and then, and installed/deleted it about a dozen times over the years, without having to worry about limited activations. If Matrix can refrain from DRM and run a succesful business over 10 years, other wargame distributors could do as well.

Aside of the dreaded DRM, JTS don't maintain a customer support to handle inevitable arising technical or store issues. What happens if somebody struggles with the activation scheme, a purchase didn't work or got double billed? Means that the customer either has to post on gamesquad.com, send a mail to this 3 guys and hope it will get answered in due time, or try to void the transaction over Paypal. Good luck with finding faithful customers, myself I won't send money to this store.



E -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 2:33:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

E, do you remember this post of yours earlier this year?

quote:

JULY THIS YEAR: E

If anybody gets Crusader working, please let me know how... I tried and tried and tried several years ago... it's one of a few games I can no longer run.


So owning a disc rather than digitially downloading will not guarantee you a successfully running program whenever you want it as you claim.



No one said there were any guarantees that it will run. Just the opposite... that it's guaranteed NOT to run if they disappear as soooooo many companies have in the past decades. For instance all their other titles DO run fine here and I can guarantee they wouldn't if they used a phone-home DRM.

Please also take note of the implication of the quoted words "one of the FEW"... I've spent A LOT of money over the past decades. I expect to be able to use those programs I still like* at any time with no regard to a company's survival or my internet connection being up.

* Note I still freely admit to being a retro-gamer who still plays games dating back to the early 80's.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

Your argument about DRM is also about 5 hours overtaken by events. The company has adjusted its DRM policy.


My argument was against it (and the ancient Norton *grin*). Are you saying Tiller's done away with it completely? If he has, that's great news to find out he's not just slapping customers in the face to temporarily inconvenience pirates!

If you only refer to the "two machines" DRM policy stated above, my arguments are completely unaffected.





Adam Parker -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 2:50:43 PM)

E if you are referring to the limited number of times you can load the game regardless of machines in total, I agree with you.

It's a stupid, antiquated thing and I firmly believe that if I buy a game, I then own it to load or keep as I wish. Limited to 1 or 2 machines at a time? I can live with that but I shouldn't need to get permission to unlock my access to it so long as I am complying.

Try to be clearer next time in your points rather than sarcastic and you'll save us all time in getting our thoughts across [:D]

Cheers,
Adam.



E -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 3:10:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

Try to be clearer next time in your points rather than sarcastic



Can't do that with a setup like a comparison of DRM levels to Norton. Sorry. Can't be done. It's just not cricket. It's against the laws of physics (nature abhors a vacuum). *grin*

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker
and you'll save us all time in getting our thoughts across [:D]



I'll try to type faster for you the next time! *big grin*



V22 Osprey -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 3:35:04 PM)

This DRM is just as bad as eLicense at Battlefront.

quote:


ORIGINAL: pvthudson01

You have to take steps to prevent piracy.

Well, this would have been valid point if it wasn't for the fact that all these fancy DRMs does NOTHING to stop the pirates. I pay my hard earned money for limited installs and intrusive DRM yet the pirate has more ownership of the game. The only thing DRM is blocking is paying customers.



sabre1 -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 3:54:11 PM)

+1 V22



dudalb_slith -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 6:31:03 PM)

I think few of us object to Digital Download; it is the DRM which is turning people off.
If I decide I do not want to pay the extra Ten Bucks for a Hard copy from Matrix, I can back up my download on a DVD-R which I do (with the serial number in a notepad document stored on the same DVD); The game is mine forever. With the scheme Tiller is using, if his venture fails and he goes out of business then I up S--t creek .



rahamy -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 7:19:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow
Aside of the dreaded DRM, JTS don't maintain a customer support to handle inevitable arising technical or store issues. What happens if somebody struggles with the activation scheme, a purchase didn't work or got double billed? Means that the customer either has to post on gamesquad.com, send a mail to this 3 guys and hope it will get answered in due time, or try to void the transaction over Paypal. Good luck with finding faithful customers, myself I won't send money to this store.


I handle Support for JTS (and HPS) and have for about a decade now - I average less than 24 hours on responses and more often than not less than an hour from the time the message is received. Ask anyone who deals with HPS Support about what kind of service they get, you'll get the same from JTS.

And, we are working on a forum, blog, etc. - but this is a start up and not a multi-million dollar enterprise - so please give us some time. [8D]

The people involved with this endeavor have a very long track record of providing world class support to our products, both in responsivenees and free updates - and I don't say that lightly. My day job is in IT and we provide much better support than the vast majority of our vendors.



boatrigm -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 7:40:13 PM)

Well, for me, anything that limits the number of installs or activations is a no buy for me regardless of how well support is or how great the game is. That's why Matrix and GOG get my money. I'm sure others feel like I do. If a patch comes out like with HPS Mexican American war then I will buy. I think it's great that JT's games are going digital download but I like the serial number DRM that Matrix uses.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 8:04:28 PM)

It's tiring listening to people speak from a totally under informed position.

Just because you have a plastic disc in your hands, does not mean you own anything.

You only own the plastic disc, the software on it was never ever yours to begin with.

The creator has not sold it to you in any fashion. Maybe you might want to actually read an EULA fully sometime. Yes, I know, they're boring to read.

Now it's obvious to even the most dim of minds, that John certainly can't realistically actually expect to deny the use of the software should he wish to.

The only reason for physical delivery in this day of incredibly powerful disc burning drives, is if the user is a complete and total dimwit, or merely lazy on an epic scale.

HPS uses DRM by the way, it is merely useless. DRM = any form of protection including the ones that work so poorly that they are a joke. Disc in drive is DRM for instance. And theirs is particularly worthless. So lame I was not aware it was there till someone mentioned it was.
Serials is DRM, and it just happens that the way Matrix Games/Slitherine sells installers coupled with serials just happens to make us happy. It's DRM that is effective, yet not annoying.
Battlefront uses DRM sufficiently annoying I refuse to buy their games. It's not harmful like the feature favourite Starforce, but it sucks loud enough to kill my interest.
I've used Steam, and while I don't hate, it, I'd rather not have to.

I applaud John going to digital download.
I groan it is limiting on installs. But I can live with that.
Going online to activate, can be a hassle. Just as long as their is no 'Steam' aspect, it's all cool.
I don't like his games enough to indulge Steam though.

I like Civ V enough to tolerate Steam. But then I play Civ V intensely for a day when bored, and then uninstall. Steam is not normally allowed on my computer when I can avoid it.

Going to digital download, will assist gamers in far off international locations. This is a good thing. Physical delivery often equates to massive shipping obstacles. And for what, so some can pretend it allows them to 'own' the game?
I have never 'owned' a game more so, all for having a game mailed to me in a pretty box.



junk2drive -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 8:20:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rahamy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow
Aside of the dreaded DRM, JTS don't maintain a customer support to handle inevitable arising technical or store issues. What happens if somebody struggles with the activation scheme, a purchase didn't work or got double billed? Means that the customer either has to post on gamesquad.com, send a mail to this 3 guys and hope it will get answered in due time, or try to void the transaction over Paypal. Good luck with finding faithful customers, myself I won't send money to this store.


I handle Support for JTS (and HPS) and have for about a decade now - I average less than 24 hours on responses and more often than not less than an hour from the time the message is received. Ask anyone who deals with HPS Support about what kind of service they get, you'll get the same from JTS.

And, we are working on a forum, blog, etc. - but this is a start up and not a multi-million dollar enterprise - so please give us some time. [8D]

The people involved with this endeavor have a very long track record of providing world class support to our products, both in responsivenees and free updates - and I don't say that lightly. My day job is in IT and we provide much better support than the vast majority of our vendors.


I will give kudos to Rich and Glenn for support and information. I see them on various websites as much as Eric.

It makes a difference to me anyway.



Yogi the Great -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 8:57:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

The only reason for physical delivery in this day of incredibly powerful disc burning drives, is if the user is a complete and total dimwit, or merely lazy on an epic scale.



Hey, I resemble that remark!

[sm=terms.gif] see Erik's comment [sm=00000280.gif]



Lützow -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 9:12:00 PM)

Well, I liked those big boxes with printed manuals and take pride in the few ones which are still in my possession.

Was writing a wall of text, but ditched this again as it's simply not worth the hassle. To put in a nutshell: DRM + limited activations = no purchase.



sabre1 -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 9:39:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

The only reason for physical delivery in this day of incredibly powerful disc burning drives, is if the user is a complete and total dimwit, or merely lazy on an epic scale.



Hey, I resemble that remark!

[sm=terms.gif] see Erik's comment [sm=00000280.gif]


Yep I'm right there with you Yogi.



Adam Parker -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 11:20:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

E if you are referring to the limited number of times you can load the game regardless of machines in total, I agree with you.

It's a stupid, antiquated thing and I firmly believe that if I buy a game, I then own it to load or keep as I wish. Limited to 1 or 2 machines at a time? I can live with that but I shouldn't need to get permission to unlock my access to it so long as I am complying.


Re my quote to E above, I have adjusted my original post I made earlier too.

I do believe that once I buy a game I should have no restrictions on how many times I load it and unload it.

However, I remember why I first posted that this wasn't such a big issue. Bascially I assumed that if anyone needed to load the game more than 10 times, that would just be an unsual thing.

Point is, so what? Maybe some people will need to do this often? Thing is JTS shouldn't need to know. I want my only contact with a game company to be:

1. Is my software legal? If so you can activate it for me.
2. Are there any new patches? If so give them to me.
3. Do I have any questions? If so answer them for me.
4. Can I talk to others about the game? If so what is the best forum?

Otherwise, "you" don't need to know anything more about me other than possibly knowing my billing details.

So I still hope that people heartily support this new venture. I posted a question at the support site re some shopping questions. I just received a reply from Rich Hamilton well under 24 hours. He's the type of guy that I want behind my purchases.

Cheers,
Adam.



E -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/4/2010 11:29:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rahamy

The people involved with this endeavor have a very long track record of providing world class support to our products, both in responsivenees and free updates - and I don't say that lightly.


Then you would be the one to ask directly... why this form of DRM, when Matrix' serial appears to be sufficient for earlier Tiller titles and even HPS is removing theirs from more current Tiller's titles?



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