RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (Full Version)

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rahamy -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/5/2010 1:08:04 AM)

I can't speak for Matrix as I'm not affiliated with them. They purchased the old Talonsoft products and only contracted JT to get them current for modern OS's, so again two totally different operations. The approach being taken by JTS is considered our best option of the ones available to us, and at least by the development teams the least invasive of some of the options discussed. We understand some people don't like it, but a lot don't seem to mind as they are jumping in and playing the game even as I type...and we have altered the licensing based on customer response, so we are flexible.

As for HPS - JT is removing the CD checks. HPS is the publisher, but has no involvement with the code in any way shape or form. Scott has his own projects to keep him busy. [:D]



LarryP -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/5/2010 1:22:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sabre1

It's a losing proposition for me. If it isn't like Matrix, they can go pound sand.

I always buy the physical CD if available. I hate any kind of DRM scheme. I won't buy any software from Eagle Studios becuase of DRM. I won't buy anything from Battlefront because of DRM. If Matrix had a policy like this I wouldn't buy anything from them either. I would find a new hobby. Serial numbers are fair. I understand it, and I also appreciate the freedom it gives me knowing I own the game.


AMEN!



E -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/5/2010 1:24:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rahamy

I can't speak for Matrix ... As for HPS ... JTS ...


Sorry, I should've been more specific... I wasn't looking for the technical aspects so much as...

Is there a reason that increased* DRM is seen as being needed by JTS? Has there been an increase in lost sales?

(perhaps if people understand the seemingly increased need for this type of DRM, especially in light of other companies going the other direction, potential customers might find it more palatable)

* - subjective term



IronWarrior -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/5/2010 4:48:39 AM)

So let me get this straight... this split was over a disagreement about DRM where HPS took the side of their customers?

Merry Christmas to you too Mr. Tiller. Lumps of coal for our stockings? [:'(]



papajack -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/5/2010 8:24:17 AM)

Picture this ...one day your good old computer die on you ..so time to buy a new one ...but oops what the JTS game ...I can't install a new one ...now I am at the mercy of the developer..hope they are in the good mood ...

then few months down the road ..your pc crash and you need to reinstall...again you are at the mercy of the developer...probably you have to beg for one this time ....
( it was mention that the game will recognise the pc if you reinstall..but that does not work well in real life...I hav e the similiar nasty experience with Battlefront and Slitherine last time ..and I can tell you it is a big nightmare ...ask Slitherine about this ..that why they change to this current serial system )

then one fine day ..the developer close shop ....what I am going to do ..what about  those games i bought so far ..???

The developer can make all sort of promise now but who knows what will happen in future

To own a game and have constant worry that it might be "lost" is a really terrible thing

Come on JT , you have a big fan base and more to come with this digital download ..don't throw all that away by implementing this nonproductive DRM

Use the serial system instead and monitor the sales for 2-3 months ...it it is no good then implement...give it a try at least



berto -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/5/2010 1:59:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronWarrior

So let me get this straight... this split was over a disagreement about DRM where HPS took the side of their customers?

Apparently so. Go read

A letter from Scott: 4 Dec 2010

at the HPS website.

Great news, HPS!



LarryP -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/5/2010 2:07:56 PM)

That makes me want to support HPS more now, and continue to wait for the physical copy. However, they are incorporating digital download! JT should follow their lead on this DRM issue. I have passed on dozens of games, simply because of Tages, Securom, and continuous online connection for play. I will not support DRM like that no matter how bad I may want a particular title. JT included now, unless he changes his policy.

War games are not the genre of games that are subject to much piracy anyway I would think. That's more along the line of the FPS and role playing games. Am I wrong here? [&:]



sabre1 -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/5/2010 2:24:14 PM)

+ 1 LarryP,

Nope you ain't wrong. You are wrong most of the time, but not this time...[:D][:'(][;)]



LarryP -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/5/2010 2:34:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sabre1

+ 1 LarryP,

Nope you ain't wrong. You are wrong most of the time, but not this time...[:D][:'(][;)]


That's good, because this is the only time I cared about. [8D]



sabre1 -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/5/2010 2:36:15 PM)

touche my friend...



SlickWilhelm -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/5/2010 2:49:03 PM)

I just read on the John Tiller Software store that they have changed their activation policy to include installs on two computers at the same time with one serial number.

I agree that HPS' and Matrix Games' method is even better, but at least JTS heard us and altered their plans quickly. I have to admit, though, that given the choice of whom to purchase the game from, it's going to be HPS because they don't have an activation limit.



Lützow -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/5/2010 3:31:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm

I agree that HPS' and Matrix Games' method is even better, but at least JTS heard us and altered their plans quickly.


Two activations are ridiculous though. Means if you mess up with first installation, there is another free attempt before one has to beg customer service for regaining rights on his legally acquired property. That's downright unacceptable.

Following the thread on wargamer.com it should be clear that nobody wants this DRM scheme, yet JTS isn't willing to back down and apologize for every trouble the debate had caused. Not a good start for the new store, but after all it's their decision off course. While this probably won't stop the die hards from purchasing new PzC offsprings, the occasional buyer will think twice about if it's worth the hassle.

Fortunately it's not Matrix. This would hurt considerably more.



SlickWilhelm -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/5/2010 3:37:45 PM)

I was referring to the number of computers that you may have the game installed to. HPS and Matrix don't set a limit, whereas JTS has set it's limit to two simultaneous installations.

In other words, you may have the game installed on your home gaming rig, and on your laptop. This is all I've ever needed, so the new JTS limit is fine with me. YMMV, of course. [;)]



Lützow -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/5/2010 3:51:22 PM)

And I was referring to a situation where one forgets to properly uninstall a game in order to get the installation back. I'm doing a new Windows setup from time to time.



Yogi the Great -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/5/2010 4:08:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow

While this probably won't stop the die hards from purchasing new PzC offsprings, the occasional buyer will think twice about if it's worth the hassle.

Fortunately it's not Matrix. This would hurt considerably more.


Well let's see. From HPS Tiller title games: I currently own 7 Panzer Campaigns, 5 civil war campaigns, 1 Early American Campaign, 1 Napoleonic, and 3 Squad battles.

Does that make me a die hard? I will for now continue to buy Tiller titles I don't have from HPS, but will refrain for now from buying from Tiller Software. If he starts providing hard copies and/or changes his scheme I may reconsider. I guess only time will tell how his seperation and scheme work for him.



junk2drive -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/5/2010 4:25:02 PM)

Glenn made an interesting post at the blitz. It concerns your $40 purchase and the risk. He doesn't mention the person that buys 10 titles at $400 or 20 at $800.

Although I don't understand the desire to buy a game that requires that much investment anyway. Not when there are open source games and excellent choices from other devs that include map and editing tools to create a whole time period or any time period.



thewood1 -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/5/2010 4:50:15 PM)

What I don't understand is that they say they are going to monitor to see how the DRM and the fan base respond. So why start out with one of the harshest DRMs. Why not start out trusting your base.



tevans6220 -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/5/2010 8:03:45 PM)

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that Scott Hamilton's post on the HPS website blows Tiller & company's argument of piracy right out of the water. HPS has been the publisher of Tiller's games for the last 10 years. So if anybody felt the "hurt" of piracy it would have been HPS the publisher. According to Scott's post that doesn't seem to be the case. The impression I get is that HPS is against DRM of any kind.

One other thing that has irked me over the years is that Tiller doesn't even grace us with his prescence. Why is that? Even the worst the developers show up to interact with their customer base once in awhile. In the 10+ years that I've purchased Tiller designed games, first thru Talonsoft then HPS, I cannot remember one instance where Tiller actually communicated with his customer base/fans. Everything comes thru Rahamy or Glenn Saunders. If you notice Rahamy is here and at the Wargamer site while Glenn is at the Blitz, both trying to put out the fires due to this DRM fiasco. Where is Tiller? He's nowhere to found. Sorry but that doesn't sit too well with me.



Hertston -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/5/2010 10:13:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that Scott Hamilton's post on the HPS website blows Tiller & company's argument of piracy right out of the water.


That's what I find so puzzling. I may be hopelessly naive, but whereas I can readily understand piracy hitting the big FPS, RPG, RTS games etc, and indeed really hurting the developers of some of the more casual or action type indie titles, how many sales did JT actually lose to piracy, i.e not just people who download the game, but those who would have otherwise bought it? It's exactly why I find Storm Eagle's choice of DRM so extraordinary, how many 'pirates' rushed to download Distant Guns? I'm not saying sales weren't lost, but considering the generally 'conservative' nature of the wargaming demographic in regards of DRM, were they really more than those lost as a result of folks avoiding that DRM? For reasons I've posted elsewhere, I've shifted from a so-so position on this sort of DRM to a flat-out "no way". I won't be buying any titles from JT.





JudgeDredd -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/5/2010 10:22:05 PM)

Sorry - what is his DRM stance then? Is he introducing a new method?



SlickWilhelm -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/5/2010 10:43:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

One other thing that has irked me over the years is that Tiller doesn't even grace us with his prescence. Why is that? Even the worst the developers show up to interact with their customer base once in awhile. In the 10+ years that I've purchased Tiller designed games, first thru Talonsoft then HPS, I cannot remember one instance where Tiller actually communicated with his customer base/fans. Everything comes thru Rahamy or Glenn Saunders. If you notice Rahamy is here and at the Wargamer site while Glenn is at the Blitz, both trying to put out the fires due to this DRM fiasco. Where is Tiller? He's nowhere to found. Sorry but that doesn't sit too well with me.


Maybe it's because he's not exactly a people person, and is smart enough to let his colleagues deal with the customers. Some people are genius with code, but have limited people skills. I don't know if this is the reason, but it could be.

His reasons may not be as sinister as what you're implying.



htuna -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/5/2010 10:57:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm


quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

One other thing that has irked me over the years is that Tiller doesn't even grace us with his prescence. Why is that? Even the worst the developers show up to interact with their customer base once in awhile. In the 10+ years that I've purchased Tiller designed games, first thru Talonsoft then HPS, I cannot remember one instance where Tiller actually communicated with his customer base/fans. Everything comes thru Rahamy or Glenn Saunders. If you notice Rahamy is here and at the Wargamer site while Glenn is at the Blitz, both trying to put out the fires due to this DRM fiasco. Where is Tiller? He's nowhere to found. Sorry but that doesn't sit too well with me.



Maybe it's because he's not exactly a people person, and is smart enough to let his colleagues deal with the customers. Some people are genius with code, but have limited people skills. I don't know if this is the reason, but it could be.

His reasons may not be as sinister as what you're implying.



That was my thoughts as well Slick!... Glenn and Rahamy do an excellent job, got those special skills like Erik!



jazman -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/5/2010 11:06:22 PM)

All I know is there is $40 in my bank account that had "Kharkov '43" written all over them, and my credit card was a-shakin' and a-tremblin'. Now all is calm, and I still have that $40 in my bank account. Ah, it's best to keep the deck clear for War in the East, anyway.



Strela_Oz -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/6/2010 1:12:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

I'm not familiar with the names credited with this game's scenario design (David Freer, Eric Baker, and Phil Niven) but let's see what they've come up with hey?




Hi Adam,

We are three Aussies (like yourself) who have done a fair bit of work with SSG. Our first collaboration with Panzer Campaigns was the Alt scenarios etc for Korsun '44 that is out on Volcano Man's site.

Kharkov '43 is our first completely original work and we are pretty pleased with it. It is one of the really big sweeping operations of the Eastern Front.

I also saw you mention 6th Guards Cav Corp and crossing the Oskol River in another thread :) - to make you feel better they are ersatz SS your facing. SS Polizei to be accurate - not quite as tough as LAH or DR.... The Oskol will just be the first of a few river crossings before you get to Kharkov...

David



tevans6220 -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/6/2010 4:04:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm
Maybe it's because he's not exactly a people person, and is smart enough to let his colleagues deal with the customers. Some people are genius with code, but have limited people skills. I don't know if this is the reason, but it could be.

His reasons may not be as sinister as what you're implying.


I'm not implying anything sinister. It just strikes me as odd that a developer who wants to self-publish can't even be bothered to take the time to personally interact with people. There's always a go between and it gives the impression that we're unworthy of dealing with him directly. Limited people skills when dealing face to face, I could understand. But we're talking about forum or email types of communication. Like I said, even the worst developers communicate with customers or potential customers. His name is on the website and yet we can't communicate with him directly. That seems a little odd to me and it's not the best way to garner business to a new website.



E -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/6/2010 4:46:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220
There's always a go between and it gives the impression that we're unworthy of dealing with him directly.


I think you're reading far, far, far, far too much into that. Perhaps it's something much simpler... like "time."



rhondabrwn -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/6/2010 7:16:09 AM)

He has a nice website. The information provided on the new game includes ample screen shots and detailed information as well as free downloads of things like a planning map. I was always a bit frustrated by the lack of information on the HPS site for new games, usually just a couple of screen shots.

I enjoyed seeing the staff bios and pictures as well.

Generally a lot of information there and I do wish them well in their new endeavor. I'm sure they'll be flexible in working out compromises in the areas of complaint being voiced here.

My concern is only that I'll miss the discounted NWS pricing. I would hope that they would continue that channel for people not wanting to download their game... or just cheap enough to be able to wait a week or so to save $10 [:D]



rahamy -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/6/2010 11:34:14 AM)

For the last dozen years John had his personal site up (where the original 32-bit updates for the BG series could be downloaded) and his personal email was on that. Its not on the new one & E hit the nail on the head - time. Its not that he won't talk to customers, its that he is strapped for time - with 10+ series to maintain commercially and Government work, you must delegate certain things.



nelmsm1 -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/6/2010 11:54:47 AM)

After all, it's not like Bill Gates answers complaints about Windows on any forums is it......and he probably has much more time on his hands then John Tiller!



tevans6220 -> RE: Holy cow John Tiller has gone digital (12/6/2010 2:16:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nelmsm

After all, it's not like Bill Gates answers complaints about Windows on any forums is it......and he probably has much more time on his hands then John Tiller!

True but Bill Gates isn't opening a new business venture by self-publishing his products on his own website. Gates is established. Tiller is just getting started with self-publishing. He needs to talk to us. Anybody opening a new business needs to talk to their customers. Self-publishing his own products is a new business venture.



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