RE: War in the West (Full Version)

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Blind Sniper -> RE: War in the West (10/12/2011 6:04:47 PM)

I really hope not another IGO-UGO game...I would pass this one next time.



Dili -> RE: War in the West (10/12/2011 11:35:06 PM)

So what would be your idea? everyone plots their moves at same time?



marty_01 -> RE: War in the West (10/12/2011 11:47:08 PM)

I'll definately buy it. Just cause there is enough stuff in WiTE to keep my juices flowing that would make me think that WiTW will rate at least a look and a PBEM or two. After which Ill either be addicted, or Ill use the game disk as frisbee for my dogs.

But it will be interesting to see how the 2:1 auto-retreat rule is handled in a War in the West game. As some have already pointed out the WiTE map scale may not be as well suited to the campaign in NW Europe. For example: The Normandy Lodgement at WiTE scale would be only one hex deep for a couple of turns after the invasion turn. Now imagine the Axis player pilling Panzer Lehr, Hitler Jugend, 21st Panzer Division and several infantry divisions against against the lodgement the turn of the invasion or the turn after.



Zorch -> RE: War in the West (10/13/2011 1:50:35 AM)

Yes, stacking limits will be an issue. I forget, did Grigsby's West Front game have the same scale as War in Russia / 2nd Front?



Blind Sniper -> RE: War in the West (10/13/2011 4:01:23 PM)

quote:

So what would be your idea? everyone plots their moves at same time?


Yes, I know that WEGO system is not a easy thing to do but I'm getting tired to play in this way (speaking about pc wargame of course).

WitP is a perfect example how this system can be funny to play and more challenging as well.
Also I remember Ageod American Civil War, two weeks per turn and still absolutely playable.

WitE is a fantastic game, very detailed and complicated but I noticed that something is missing, I discussed about that with other players and personally, I found what I think is missing for my taste: the simultaneity.
Initially is intriguing discover the right path, which attack will be more efficient or the best defence against a breakthrough, then I understand that surprise is a factor too important.
Thanks to good recon you know exactly where the units are, no way to do a probe attack or mask an encirclement, playing WitP or AACW there is a totally different feeling, your units can be intercepted or moved in a wrong direction, with IGO-UGO is almost impossible.

Said that, I think that WitE is a very good game but simply I don't like the design system decisions [:)]



imberbe -> RE: War in the West (12/22/2011 2:44:17 PM)

Several scenarios-campaign (or games) woud be better:

-West 40 : France, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg.
-Desert 40-43: Egypt, Libia, Tunis
-Victory 43-45: Italy (Sicily-Italy), France, Germany, etc





Romdanzer -> RE: War in the West (1/7/2012 10:05:37 PM)

Any news on how far along in any form or fashion War in the West is at all? i.e. something like when would the first dev-comments come or pre-development forum even maybe? Sometime in 2012 for these?

thanks in advance for any info!

Romdanzer



Joel Billings -> RE: War in the West (1/8/2012 12:37:47 AM)

We're working hard. First tests are underway of troops coming ashore in Sicily, air units flying from aifields built into the map (instead of airbase counters). We're still at a very early stage, but we're making progress. I would guess we won't be saying much about it for at least another month or two. We need to stay as focused as we can on putting things together and working out new systems. I don't have an ETA for you, but I'll try to give some info as we go along in development. Thanks for your interest.



Michael T -> RE: War in the West (1/8/2012 2:31:40 AM)

quote:

air units flying from aifields built into the map (instead of airbase counters
I like [:)]



JamesM -> RE: War in the West (1/8/2012 5:26:12 AM)

Strategic bombing will have to play a much bigger part in WitW than WitE due to presence of the 8th & 15th air forces and Bomber Command.  I feel that there should be an option for either the player or AI to control this option.



JiminyJickers -> RE: War in the West (1/8/2012 10:23:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

War in the West (43-45) and War in North Africa are the next two games we will be working on. Eventually plan to link them all (that is the plan anyway).


That would be awesome, looking forward to it all.



Ketza -> RE: War in the West (1/8/2012 7:28:45 PM)

Really looking forward to this.




Wild -> RE: War in the West (1/8/2012 8:20:44 PM)

If the game has the same design philosophy of one sides hands being tied while the other has complete freedom then i cannot see myself purchasing this game,even though i own virtually ever other 2by3 game.

We must move to a system where both sides are treated equally and have the same flexability.

Don't mean to sound negative but tying one sides hands really ruins the fun of the game.



2ndACR -> RE: War in the West (1/8/2012 8:40:03 PM)

I would bet that War in the West will allow Germany almost complete control over production. Since The strategic bombing will be a major factor for the Allies. I would not be able to fathom how the game could be playable with a "fixed" production. Since the Allies would just bomb the factories to dust that produce the best weapons etc. Take out the Tiger factory, then the Panther factory and just continue working down the list.

Same as in WITP, since strategic bombing was a major factor hence why Japan has control over production.


I can see no other way to make the game playable otherwise.



randallw -> RE: War in the West (1/8/2012 9:17:32 PM)

Perhaps there could be less than 100% assurance for the Allied side that factory X is actually in city Z, and that aiming for factory X will end up hitting factory Y, or some such snafu possibilities.



gradenko2k -> RE: War in the West (1/9/2012 1:13:20 AM)

I think that might be an oversimplification of the strategic bombing campaign. I mean, the Allies knew about Schweinfurt and the effect it would have on the rest of German industry, but just because you'd like to target it doesn't mean you'll be able to take it out.



Ketza -> RE: War in the West (1/9/2012 6:32:59 PM)

The problem is with allied strategic bombing capalbilities is there were politics involved from both a military as well as civilian perspective.

Unless this is addressed in some way thats a lot of freedom a player would have that historically was not an option.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: War in the West (1/9/2012 6:52:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

The problem is with allied strategic bombing capalbilities is there were politics involved from both a military as well as civilian perspective.

Unless this is addressed in some way thats a lot of freedom a player would have that historically was not an option.


Penalties (VP points) for every bombing raid on a civilian center of population? So, there are VPs for the military victory and VPs for the moral victory. Both combine to give a total score.

Similarly, the Axis player could opt not to bomb London etc. in '40 or not to use the V weapons. Higher moral VP score.

Maybe the allies should be blocked from launching a strategic bombing campaign if the Axis has not bombed Allied cities?

Similar rules could apply in the Atlantic. Uboats attack 'all targets' for higher impact on the British economy and higher military VPs, but lower moral VPs, or they attack 'warships only' for lower military VPs and impact but higher moral VPs...

Just some ideas



Flaviusx -> RE: War in the West (1/9/2012 7:00:51 PM)

Actually, for Bomber Command, there would be penalties for NOT bombing civilian centers of population. Bomber Harris was all about "area" (i.e. terror) bombing.

Both Bomber Command and the 8. USAF strongly resisted implementing the transportation plan.

The Brits would strongly prefer night bombing to day bombing, the US the opposite. The US would be all gungho on daylight bombing of industrial targets even in the absence of fighter escorts for quite some time. (Only after taking some hard knocks was the need for escorts understood.)

Neither air force was terribly fond of saturation bombing to assist the ground forces a la Cobra and resisted being used in this fashion.

And this is just the military politics without taking into account civilian political issues.

So, yeah. It's complicated and it will be interesting to see how this is all managed. Maybe via APs.



Q-Ball -> RE: War in the West (1/9/2012 8:34:43 PM)

Should be interesting!

I am wondering how the US Army will be modelled compared to WITE. I suspect the US will have Corps HQs, SU attachments directly to divisions.

But will the US Army have ELITE units in the WITE sense?

US Army didn't have any "elite" designation per se. Maybe certain divisions can quality for a "Veteran" status, like guards, but just called "Veteran" instead. IRL, certain units probably fit this category, like 1st Infantry, 4th Armored, 2nd Infantry, among others.

Only the Paras would be "Veteran" out of the box



Dili -> RE: War in the West (1/10/2012 7:02:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blind Sniper

quote:

So what would be your idea? everyone plots their moves at same time?


Yes, I know that WEGO system is not a easy thing to do but I'm getting tired to play in this way (speaking about pc wargame of course).

WitP is a perfect example how this system can be funny to play and more challenging as well.
Also I remember Ageod American Civil War, two weeks per turn and still absolutely playable.

WitE is a fantastic game, very detailed and complicated but I noticed that something is missing, I discussed about that with other players and personally, I found what I think is missing for my taste: the simultaneity.
Initially is intriguing discover the right path, which attack will be more efficient or the best defence against a breakthrough, then I understand that surprise is a factor too important.
Thanks to good recon you know exactly where the units are, no way to do a probe attack or mask an encirclement, playing WitP or AACW there is a totally different feeling, your units can be intercepted or moved in a wrong direction, with IGO-UGO is almost impossible.

Said that, I think that WitE is a very good game but simply I don't like the design system decisions [:)]




Sorry i have understood you wrong. Yes the WEGO is much better.

I actually i am a bit disapointed by strategy games evolution's, it seems going in circles. I don't know if that is due to lack of developments in code language to make it easier to do -know nothing about that -, AI or other things. I think it is telling that i still remember the failed Road to Moscow and what it promised.





kafka -> RE: War in the West (1/10/2012 10:11:53 AM)

quote:

I would bet that War in the West will allow Germany almost complete control over production. Since The strategic bombing will be a major factor for the Allies. I would not be able to fathom how the game could be playable with a "fixed" production. Since the Allies would just bomb the factories to dust that produce the best weapons etc. Take out the Tiger factory, then the Panther factory and just continue working down the list.


yes, I really hope they include some kind of control over production because otherwise I won't get the next game. I purchased WITE, and its really a shame that the absence of any control over production has ruined an otherwise excellent game (overseeing some UI problems), at least to me.



IronDuke_slith -> RE: War in the West (2/18/2012 9:05:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kafka

quote:

I would bet that War in the West will allow Germany almost complete control over production. Since The strategic bombing will be a major factor for the Allies. I would not be able to fathom how the game could be playable with a "fixed" production. Since the Allies would just bomb the factories to dust that produce the best weapons etc. Take out the Tiger factory, then the Panther factory and just continue working down the list.


yes, I really hope they include some kind of control over production because otherwise I won't get the next game. I purchased WITE, and its really a shame that the absence of any control over production has ruined an otherwise excellent game (overseeing some UI problems), at least to me.



I wouldn't buy it unless production was optional at best. Creating unhistorical TOEs or getting the Panther in 1940 would just ruin the whole experience. Any realistic production model, which accurately modelled the German constraints of raw materials and oil, wouldn't give you that much flexibility anyway.

Still, each to his own.

regards,
ID.



Jeffrey H. -> RE: War in the West (2/19/2012 1:42:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow

Would rather like to see Africa. Sicily and Normandy are the least interesting theatres from Axis perspective.


A North Africa theater version would be more interesting to me than a Western Europe one.



MechFO -> RE: War in the West (2/19/2012 1:28:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blind Sniper

quote:

So what would be your idea? everyone plots their moves at same time?


Yes, I know that WEGO system is not a easy thing to do but I'm getting tired to play in this way (speaking about pc wargame of course).

WitP is a perfect example how this system can be funny to play and more challenging as well.
Also I remember Ageod American Civil War, two weeks per turn and still absolutely playable.

WitE is a fantastic game, very detailed and complicated but I noticed that something is missing, I discussed about that with other players and personally, I found what I think is missing for my taste: the simultaneity.
Initially is intriguing discover the right path, which attack will be more efficient or the best defence against a breakthrough, then I understand that surprise is a factor too important.
Thanks to good recon you know exactly where the units are, no way to do a probe attack or mask an encirclement, playing WitP or AACW there is a totally different feeling, your units can be intercepted or moved in a wrong direction, with IGO-UGO is almost impossible.

Said that, I think that WitE is a very good game but simply I don't like the design system decisions [:)]



If not WEGO than at least a system like in TOAW where there's a certain need to synchronise. One of the parts where WITE doesnt make sense is that a unit can fight all week, open a hole, and another unit can warp through with the entire movement allowance of a week. This creates all kinds of knock on balance problems.

Though unlike TOAW one should be able to control the amount of time one wants to invest in a combat.



paullus99 -> RE: War in the West (2/19/2012 7:21:04 PM)

Strategic bombing is going to be tricky at best - the allies missed a huge opportunity to target the German power-grid, thinking it would be difficult, if not impossible to inflict significant damage.....after the war, they found out that if they had targeted about three dozen key energy generation plants, they could have inflicted fatal damage on the German war economy.



vinnie71 -> RE: War in the West (2/19/2012 7:39:06 PM)

Maybe research could be abstracted (ex pay a certain level of resources every turn for so many turns) with only production being really adjustable. Also upgrades to factories should follow a clear path (ex if a factory produced chassis X as a tank, it can only upgrade to producing either the same, but more advanced tank or maybe an SP variant). That way we can limit people from changing a facility for Pz II's over to Tiger production).

But a major rethinking should be made of the TOE's upgrades. A player should be able to decide if he wants an upgrade or not.



jaw -> RE: War in the West (2/21/2012 1:11:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I would bet that War in the West will allow Germany almost complete control over production. Since The strategic bombing will be a major factor for the Allies. I would not be able to fathom how the game could be playable with a "fixed" production. Since the Allies would just bomb the factories to dust that produce the best weapons etc. Take out the Tiger factory, then the Panther factory and just continue working down the list.

Same as in WITP, since strategic bombing was a major factor hence why Japan has control over production.


I can see no other way to make the game playable otherwise.



At the moment there is no German control of production but we are still in very early development. That said however, your strategy of bombing fixed production factories would not work. These factories are hard to damage and repair very quickly. Better strategy is to bomb basic industries like synthetic oil plants and degrade the German railnet by bombing marshalling yards.



2ndACR -> RE: War in the West (2/21/2012 1:18:48 PM)

Your breaking my heart there Jaw.......I sure hope they add it in.....it would really add to the game for the better IMO.



Baelfiin -> RE: War in the West (2/21/2012 1:48:47 PM)

I think it will be interesting to see how the strategic bombing campaign goes.



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