When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (Full Version)

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coxville -> When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/12/2010 5:59:40 AM)

Lots of great stuff about altitude effects scattered across this forum but when a Kate (or other Single engined torpedo bomber) is using bombs due to the non availability of torpedos. Is it teated as a dive bomber or as a level bomber. i.e what is the most effective altitude to set your attack for under those circumstances?

thanks in advance

Chris



ChezDaJez -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/12/2010 8:53:32 AM)

It is treated as a level bomber and can drop 800kg bombs. It was a Kate that dropped the bomb that sank the Arizona.

Chez



amatteucci -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/12/2010 10:19:36 AM)

Level bomber, but 800kg AP bomba are only used during ports attacks (IIRC) so don't expect miracles when attacking TFs with Kates w/o torpedoes. [;)]



Puhis -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/12/2010 11:21:49 AM)

Actually, torpedo bombers can be used as glide bombers. I don't know the exact altitudes, but at least 10k seems to work. When I set my Kates at 10k, they will release bombs at 2-5k.

But I really don't know if that's good or bad... If there heavy AA defence, low altitudes are deadly for japanese planes. So I usually set Kates at 9k, so they will do level bombing.



d0mbo -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/12/2010 12:58:52 PM)

Kates are also very (too?) effective when using low naval bombing.

Beware of the Flak, as usual.

Is it true they only use 800KG when on port attacks? I thiught it had more to do with an experience check?



Shark7 -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/12/2010 5:00:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: d0mbo

Kates are also very (too?) effective when using low naval bombing.

Beware of the Flak, as usual.

Is it true they only use 800KG when on port attacks? I thiught it had more to do with an experience check?



I've seen them use 800kg bombs on at sea attacks, but I can't remember if it was in Vanilla or AE.



Misconduct -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/12/2010 6:38:12 PM)

15,000 they dive bomb, under 14,000 they glide bomb.



Pascal_slith -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/13/2010 7:23:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

15,000 they dive bomb, under 14,000 they glide bomb.


They only level bomb during port attacks/ground attacks/airfield attacks?



Capt Hornblower -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/14/2010 7:01:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

15,000 they dive bomb, under 14,000 they glide bomb.



If true, this is a major design flaw. Torpedo pilots weren't trained in dive-bombing, so shouldn't be able to do it.



invernomuto -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/14/2010 7:47:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Hornblower


quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

15,000 they dive bomb, under 14,000 they glide bomb.



If true, this is a major design flaw. Torpedo pilots weren't trained in dive-bombing, so shouldn't be able to do it.


IIRC, pilots use NavT for naval torpedos attack and NavB for naval bomb attack. Different skills, different train needed.



Capt Hornblower -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/14/2010 8:03:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: invernomuto


IIRC, pilots use NavT for naval torpedos attack and NavB for naval bomb attack. Different skills, different train needed.


It shouldn't matter what the pilot's skills are. If the attacking plane is a torpedo bomber armed with bombs, it should not be able to dive-bomb.



Puhis -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/14/2010 10:14:28 AM)

In this game torpedo bombers can glide bomb, not dive bomb.



janh -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/14/2010 10:35:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Hornblower
It shouldn't matter what the pilot's skills are. If the attacking plane is a torpedo bomber armed with bombs, it should not be able to dive-bomb.


How so? I disagree, there is no (phyiscal) reason it shouldn't. Yes, maybe not trained to do so, maybe some were trained. And they didn't have dive brakes, but that doesn't prevent dive bombing even if the break off altitude would be higher...

A nice table with a summary of all the altitude functions for VT, VB, etc. would be nice though -- there ain't any in the manual, right?



Misconduct -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/14/2010 12:13:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

In this game torpedo bombers can glide bomb, not dive bomb.


What about a Corsair? Its a fighter built for dogfighting but excelled in dropping its landing gears and dive bombing.

I think someone should run some tests on this, because I have had a hard time bombing ships (as japanese) under 12,000ft (or glide bombing) however putting them to naval attack at 15,000 they seem to score twice as many hits.

Now this is because Dive Bombers follow this rule, at 15,000 they dive bomb while under they glide bomb.
I see no reason Torpedo bombers can't follow this rule, however in most realistic cases, torpedo planes carried torpedoes so there was no need to dive bomb period, however AE is a game so some things should be considered.



Alfred -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/14/2010 12:56:31 PM)

Oh dear...once again wrong information regarding dive/glide altitudes is provided with an authoritative tone.

Check this thread. Post #29 from micahelm gives the correct information. I think we can all agree michaelm is rather authoritative.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2347631

Alfred



PaxMondo -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/14/2010 2:16:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Oh dear...once again wrong information regarding dive/glide altitudes is provided with an authoritative tone.

Check this thread. Post #29 from micahelm gives the correct information. I think we can all agree michaelm is rather authoritative.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2347631

Alfred

This is for DB's. I have not yet seen any authoritative info on attack changes for TB's. Can anyone provide a reference/link?



Nomad -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/14/2010 2:29:22 PM)

Maybe this from the patch readme will help ( note that TD should read TB )

62. Gameplay Change: Placed limits on glide bombing altitudes. A TD/DB/FB/F group must be at 10-20K altitude to perform glide bombing, otherwise it is a normal level bombing attack. Groups were at maximum altitude and conducting glide bombs attack, sometimes without engaging CAP or flak.



coxville -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/14/2010 5:52:45 PM)

Ok thanks everybody, some really useful stuff in here but I still cannot find the answer to this question so if a developer is peeping in and knows could you please give me a definitive answer on it:

"If a Kate torpedo bomber is flying 'using bombs' and set at an altitude of 14,000 ft does it Dive bomb or Glide Bomb?"

thanks

Chris



Mynok -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/14/2010 6:07:29 PM)

It does not Dive Bomb. I'm not sure whether it level bombs or glide bombs, and I'm not sure it makes a significant difference in effect.



Puhis -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/14/2010 7:17:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: coxville

Ok thanks everybody, some really useful stuff in here but I still cannot find the answer to this question so if a developer is peeping in and knows could you please give me a definitive answer on it:

"If a Kate torpedo bomber is flying 'using bombs' and set at an altitude of 14,000 ft does it Dive bomb or Glide Bomb?"



I did test that. Kates will glide bomb (releasing bombs at 2000-5000 feet). At least when they are doing airfield/port/ground attacks.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Midway Island , at 158,91

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 25 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 135



Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
PBY-4 Catalina: 1 destroyed on ground


Allied ground losses:
5 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled


Airbase hits 10
Airbase supply hits 11
Runway hits 102

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 3000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
14 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 5000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
4 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 5000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
4 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 5000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
8 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 4000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
4 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 2000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
8 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 4000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
10 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 5000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
10 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 4000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
10 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 2000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
9 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 4000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
5 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 2000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
8 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 3000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
5 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 5000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
8 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 5000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
10 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 4000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
5 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 2000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
5 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 3000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb



PaxMondo -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/14/2010 8:05:36 PM)

Nice test ... THanks!



PaxMondo -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/14/2010 8:07:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

It does not Dive Bomb. I'm not sure whether it level bombs or glide bombs, and I'm not sure it makes a significant difference in effect.


I would think that AA losses would be significantly different between level and glide. So, it would be nice to know the triggers for glide .vs. level bomb for TB's. Altitude, mission, etc. Thanks to any dev clarifying this.



Hipper -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/14/2010 8:29:47 PM)

hi folks

you do all know that the "obsolete" Fairey swordfish was a fairly tolerable dive bomber as well as a torpedo plane :-)

cheers




Puhis -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/14/2010 8:50:21 PM)

Maybe so, but I think in this game only 'dive bombers' can dive bomb. Some dive bombers are also torpedo bombers, at least japanese late war B7A2 Grace.



Puhis -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/14/2010 8:55:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

It does not Dive Bomb. I'm not sure whether it level bombs or glide bombs, and I'm not sure it makes a significant difference in effect.


I would think that AA losses would be significantly different between level and glide. So, it would be nice to know the triggers for glide .vs. level bomb for TB's. Altitude, mission, etc. Thanks to any dev clarifying this.


If I use Kates bombing ground units, port or airfield, I set them at 9000 ft and the will level bomb. At 10k-15k(-20k ft?) they will glide bomb.

I think naval bombing might be the same, but I can't remember ever testing that.



Mynok -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/14/2010 9:10:34 PM)


That fits my recollection of things Puhis.

1-6k LowNav level bombing
7-9k NavB level bombing
10-19k NavB glide(?) bombing
20k+ NavB level bombing

Now I've done some port attacks from 13k feet. Maybe I'll go back and check how the Kates I used attacked. I know they used the 800kg bombs (at least some of them did--others used torps).

Torps are not affected by the above AFAIK. It's possible they won't use torps at 20k+? I've never tested it.



Mynok -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/14/2010 9:11:34 PM)


Caveat: Alfred's link above indicates 1k as the LowNav altitude, so the first band above may be suspect.



Brady -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/15/2010 5:35:43 PM)

AFIK< Kates will use the 800 kg weapon type or they will use a torp if set to a port atack, the chances are better they will take a 800kg weapon type as historicaly they almost always took 800 kg weapons on port atacks, Pearl was the exception to the rule whear kates took a fair amount of torps on the raid.

If you look at the raids aganst darwin, the DEI and in the IO whear KB hit ports, the kates that sorteid to hit the ports took for the most part 800kg weapons, even Ryoju's Kates sorted with 800 kg bombs on port atacks.

Thiers an interesting thread over at J-Aircraft that details some of Her strikes in the IO, and her kates hit a fair number of ships (and sank many) with bombs from her Kates, Blody Shambels Vol I and II note some of her suxcess with bombs as well aganst ships Including DD's at sea.

Below Ryujo's Kanko-tai. B5N2 (nearest) plus B5N1 (furthest).

[img]http://www.oniva.com/upload/2131/AE334.jpg[/img]

Image source indicates the following:

As for the use of the two subtypes (B5N1 and B5N2), photographic documents confirm this. In the excellent book writen by Michel Ledet "Samouraï sur porte-avions", the top photo on page 145 (credit Maru) shows two Ryûjo's Kates operating in the Bangka Area, near Sumatra. The plane in the foreground is a B5N2 and the plane in the background is a B5N1

Thanks to Froggy at J-Aircraft.

From an old thread:

Hi Brady,

Some years ago, I wrote an article for the french magazine "Le Fana de l'Aviation" which delt with the invasion of Netherland East Indies. Wath I remember about this action is as follows :

On Feb.17 1942, the dutch destroyer "Van Nes" escorted the sea liner "Sloet van de Beele" which was evacuating troops from Oosthaven to Java. The liner was sunk by 15 G3M2 of Genzan Kû. The destroyer was then attacked by B5N1/2 (the two models were used at the same time) from carrier Ryûjo and was hit by at least 3 bombs. When it sank, part of its crew was rescued by dutch floatplane Do-24K coded X-18 (52 men were safely transported to Tandjong-Priok).
Ryûjo's Sentô Kodoshocho is hidden in my files and It would take hours to find it. This document gives the exact number of planes involved in the mission, the names of crewmen and the amunitions used. As far as I remember, bombs used by Ryûjo's Kates for level bombing were of 60 kg but this needs to be confirmed.

Hope this will be of interest for you.
Cheers

Bernard



spence -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/15/2010 10:02:40 PM)

Brady's post about the sinking of the Van Nes is interesting in that it details the sinking of a DD by bomb laden Ryujo Kates. With his knowledge or where to look and so forth I wonder if he can likewise detail an instance where the Ryujo Kates carried torpedoes when attacking ships.

Ryujo a/c are credited with sinking quite a few ships in the Bay of Bengal during the IO Raid but the only mention of torpedoes I can find for the whole operation is a practice session by the KB torpedo bombers for the Midway debacle. Every mention of Ryujo that I have found has her strike group using bombs.



Brady -> RE: When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber? (12/15/2010 10:39:39 PM)

From the Thread I liked above:

According to the ship's extant air records, Ryujo'sair operations during the war included a total of five torpedo armed sorties that occurred on three separate missions: A large bombing raid that included one torpedo equipped bird, and much later two small launches that each included a pair of torpedo equipped birds.-Mark E Horan

He amends this statement later thusly:

In regards to operations from Ryujo in which her aircraft carried either torpedoes or heavy (800 kg) bombs, her records show the following. I have included all of the aircraft that were include in the individual range/spot. Also note, the date is given based on Tokyo time, not US time:

1. 41-12-20, four B5Nx, one (torpedo), three (1x250 & 4x60 each)
2. 42-02-13, four B5Nx (1x800)
3. 42-04-06, five B5Nx, two (torpedo), three (1x250 & 4x60 each)
4. 42-04-06, five B5Nx, one  (1x800), two (1x250 & 4x60) , one B5Nx (4x60)

Obviously, I remembered incorrectly with the number of torpedo operations as the total was three sorties in two ranges, viz five in three, and the fact that on one (and only one) occasion, the ship launched four fully loaded aircraft in a single range.


It must be understoof that the B5N1, of which the Ryujo was partialy equiped, had problem launching with the torp from her, so the Torps were carried by the B5N2's she had on board (or so I have been lead to beleave).

Further:

I think the outstanding skills of the Ryujo Kankos navigators-bombardiers may be demonstrated by the cases of sinking of the two agile DDs, namely USS POPE and the Dutch one, HNMS VAN NES. Both have been attacked by the low-level bombing pattern with 250-kg and (mostly) 60-kg bombs- Nomad
 
 





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