Sov Airforce out of control? (Full Version)

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abulbulian -> Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 9:23:48 PM)

I've been playing a game vs AI and it's into June 1942. So far I've destroyed 14k planes and lost 3k (1/3 from flak).

So now that is June 42 Sov AF almost 15k strong to my 4k. Umm, it's only 42 and I've had a better start than historical, yet the air force numbers are out of whack with anything historical.

I know the answer, but does somebody want to tell me when the Sov started having anything close to parity with the Luftwaffe in terms of planes/capability. Maybe a play tester would like to take a shot at this one? Sure I know that German pilots have more experience, but an almost 4:1 ratio in planes is not right.

Part of the problem is that any sort of AF attack by axis after turn #1 of any game just sucks. Why does is it so horrible to attack Sov airfeild after t1? Is it that they are so aware after 1 week (4 days campaign) and have all this new flak or super flak? COME ON. This is very frustrating that the is almost no POINT to and air field attack after turn one. Maybe just disable the button after t1.

Anyways, I find that the game has some major issue with Sov planes and capability of their AF.

So what can I expect in 43??? Like 30k Sov planes to my 3k? [:-]

Oh BTW found some #'s will validate in some other sources too:

Sov available aircraft in

June 42: 2100
Dec 42: 3800
June 43: 5600
Dec 43: 8800
June 44: 15000
Dec 44: 16000

PS: on turn one I destroyed about 5k planes on ground.



ComradeP -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 9:37:08 PM)

The main problem is that air base bombing is essentially pointless after turn 1 and that there are no air superiority missions, so you'll mostly be shooting down enemy aircraft during battles. The Soviets face the same problem, though, so the Luftwaffe will also be stronger than it should be most of the time. It's out of whack for both sides.

Until shortly before release, there was a system in place that attracted a lot of planes to intercept recon missions or bomb air base missions, which lead to thousands of Soviet losses mostly. All of that got axed and as it now turns out it might've been nerfed a bit too severely as currently the damage you can do to the opponent's air force outside a battle is pretty small.



Speedysteve -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 9:39:09 PM)

Don't get me started on this [;)]



abulbulian -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 9:41:31 PM)

ok, well I think it's insane to have a historic game with the #'s so out of whack. This is a fantasy game to have Sov air force with 15k planes in 1942, when I've destroyed 14k already.

How could the #'s be so wrong? Like I said, done much better than historic and it should follow #'s should be around historic or even better in my favor?


15K Sov aircraft in June 42 and 14K serviceable. This seems unacceptable for game that is not fantasy but suppose to be somewhat historic.




ComradeP -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 9:42:55 PM)

It's being worked on, none of the testers are happy with it either I think. The previous situation was bad due to way too high losses. This is bad due to minimal losses and the air war becoming a non-issue outside of battles.



abulbulian -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 9:44:20 PM)

LOL

How can I even think about playing PBEM as axis with these kind of issues in the game? Don't even know how any tester could have beaten a competent Sov opponent. But, maybe I'm missing something?



Jim D Burns -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 9:44:23 PM)

I don’t think the numbers you are seeing are really that far off from history.

According to John Ellis’ book WWII a Statistical Survey, during 1941 the USSR produced 15,735 military aircraft. In 1942 they produced 25,436 military aircraft. (Table 92 page 278)

So in 1941 they averaged 1,311 airframes produced per month. In 1942 that production had increased to an average of 2,119 airframes per month.

In 39 and 40, the USSR produced 10,000+ airframes for each of those two years, so they easily had 25,000+ airframes on hand by the middle of 1941 if you just look at production for 39-41 and ignore any previous years produced airframes.

Jim



abulbulian -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 9:47:57 PM)

OMG are you kidding me? Yeah, production and NOT serviceable aircraft for use. Not trainer planes. Also, there was aircraft station in the far east facing Japan too for a while. A bunch did move to face axis, but some still remained in far east.


Jim D, go find me some stat on combat planes on east front. Don't throw out some production #'s that don't mean jack unless they used in some sort of combat mission that the game has.


I believe the numbers I posted are very close to accurate.

The numbers I'm see are wrong and VERY wrong.




Redmarkus5 -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 9:48:53 PM)

Here's my OOB (Soviet human vs. AI) for 02 July '43. Almost exactly the same numbers as those you have quoted, which suggests that, if the numbers really are 'out of whack', this is not an 'AI' issue as such, but more of a replacement pool and production issue. I would guess that this makes it easier to find a short term fix? Lowering some values in a table somewhere?

[image]local://upfiles/27287/62D56E78AEB242BBB818163BF9C007A4.jpg[/image]



abulbulian -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 9:50:07 PM)

redmarkus4, was that from a 41 campaign? If not, were not talking apples to apples.

Yes, that is what I'm try to state. There's a production issue for Sov aircraft.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 9:52:07 PM)

This is from my 41-45 grand campaign, which I assumed was the one being talked about here...?



Helpless -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 9:55:08 PM)

quote:

15K Sov aircraft in June 42 and 14K serviceable. This seems unacceptable for game that is not fantasy but suppose to be somewhat historic.


Huh...

Combat planes in Red Army
June-22-1941 20K
1-Jan-1941 12K
1-Jan-1943 21.9K
1-Jan-1944 32.5K
1-Jan-1945 43.4K
9-May-1945 47.3K

Source table 185 im "Г.Ф.Кривошеев (под редакцией). Россия и СССР в войнах XX века: Потери вооруженных сил"
http://lib.ru/MEMUARY/1939-1945/KRIWOSHEEW/poteri.txt



Smirfy -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 9:56:39 PM)

I dont want to be critical but the airwar is a 24/7 operation the way it is set up in game does not account for that. You guys seriously went too small for air units it should be handled at a pretty high level like Army group/front. I cant see this system working on a western Europe game as it is unmanagable as it stands now.



ComradeP -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 9:57:11 PM)

I don't think there's a big issue with production, the problem is that you can't shoot planes down in the historical numbers in many cases. The production by itself isn't the problem in my opinion.



Jim D Burns -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 9:59:18 PM)

Calm down, don’t fly of the handle.

On hand airframes in units and production are two different issues and should be handled by the game engine as such. The numbers you posted were probably for active military front line squadrons, so in game terms that meant they are active squadrons assigned to airbases or in the national reserve.

But production should be looked at as a different issue. That is the depth of your airforce (the reserve you can draw from) and it should not be limited to front line combat unit numbers. Each county produced a set number of airframes, those airframes belong in the production cycle somewhere.

I’m not saying they belong on map, but the different countries should be able to rebuild their front line units from an historically accurate production pool. What the USSR probably needs is an off map zone similar to the national reserve where squadrons equal to x have to be based. X being the historical number of squadrons in the east at the given game date.

Then limit the number of squadrons that can be in play to the historical front line numbers you posted, and you have an accurate representation of the airforce.

Jim



jimkehn -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 10:06:26 PM)

Abulbulian, you have destroyed almost 5:1 Soviet aircraft to your Aircraft. Now they only outnumber you 4:1. You still have the advantage. LOL But seriously, as I am playing the Russian against a German AI, I see the problem from a different perspective. Yes I have tons more aircraft but when the Germans bomb my airfields they send 80 bombers and wipe out 10-15 of My bombers. I sent 300 IL2's once to an airfield and maybe killed 5 German aircraft except the fighters that were shot down. But I outnumbered the German Interceptors by about 5 to one and still lost more fighters than HE did. Yes I agree it seems the production may be out of whack. But try playing the Soviets and outnumber German fighters by 5:1 and lose three times as many fighters as the Germans and then come back and tell me what u think. I am not playing the GC but Case Blau so we are not completely on the same page but I would say both sides are using roughly half what they WOULD be using in the GC. Anyway i agree with your premise that maybe the air production is too strong but I also agree with Pieter that the airbase missions and intercepting recon missions is pointless. AS the Russian....the unescorted German recon planes shoot down about 3 fighters for every recon my fighters shoot down. LOL. Well I hope it is all brought into balance and we will have a great game.



abulbulian -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 10:07:29 PM)

Helpless, sorry to say your source is wrong and doesn't represent what was available to the Soviets in the theater this game represents . Not your fault, it happens. Lots of bad #'s out there. Much if the information was kept secret up until recently. Hope you not one of those people that believe the Soviets only lost about 500k in battle of Stalingrad. :(



I'll get the information to you from a David Glantz source.

Also, please KEEP in mind if your going to post about the #'s they have to reflect the types of aircraft that the game represents and the #'s of aircraft in THAT THEATER. Please....



Helpless -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 10:09:19 PM)

quote:

I'll get the information to you from a David Glantz source.


And Glantz is using Krivoseev.. [;)]



abulbulian -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 10:09:59 PM)

The idea of this post was to try and make the game better and more historic. Not to throw stones at it or say it wasn't a great game. This game is my dream of a WW2 eastern front scenario. Just want to see it be all it can be.

[:)]



jimkehn -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 10:11:35 PM)

Abulbulian on that we can all agree. 8^)



abulbulian -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 10:12:42 PM)

quote:

Combat planes in Red Army
June-22-1941 20K
1-Jan-1941 12K
1-Jan-1943 21.9K
1-Jan-1944 32.5K
1-Jan-1945 43.4K
9-May-1945 47.3K


helpless, the problem with these numbers is they don't reflect the planes that the game is limited to represent in the theater in question. A portion of those numbers are in the Far East. It even stats 'planes in Red Army'. I still think they are inflated a bit too.

Also, if they did have maybe 22K Jan 43 and 33K Jan 44... so maybe 27k when Kursk took place. in Juy 43. Ask yourself this, how many Sov aircraft were available for that battle? I think it was about 50% or so of what was available on east front. I know how many... so does your posted numbers make any sense now?



Smirfy -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 10:13:06 PM)


I'll try to put this into some short of perspective as to why the air system is bad and see if it resonates. Where I live I am surrounded by WWII airfileds, these airfields serviced the shuttling of the 8th airforce, Coastal Command and air transport they are perminant structures and serviced alot of huge 4 engined planes they did not take up they same space as a DIVISION c'mon. We have got stacks off these unessecary counters for units flying singled engined aircraft of grass fields . This just aint needed for a game of this scale there has to be a better system. This aint WITP were I admit building an airbase was important but those you notice are FIXED!



Helpless -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 10:13:47 PM)

quote:



Hope you not one of those people that believe the Soviets only lost about 500k in battle of Stalingrad. :(
...
..

The idea of this post was to try and make the game better and more historic. Not to throw stones at it or say it wasn't a great game. This game is my dream of a WW2 eastern front scenario. Just want to see it be all it can be.


So choose your words please.. and check the sources, context, etc. You may ask testers what I think on air model, but your arguments and proves just mean nothing here. Do you want me to send you the save where Soviet has 2M army and 1K planes by the end of 1941?



Helpless -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 10:14:52 PM)

quote:


helpless, the problem with these numbers is they don't reflect the planes that the game is limited to represent in the theater in question. A portion of those numbers are in the Far East. It even stats 'planes in Red Army'. I still think they are inflated a bit too.


Sure, but your argument on 15K on OOB is even more incomplete.



abulbulian -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 10:17:25 PM)

Once again, how many planes did Sov have available for Kursk on July 43? By your numbers they had some ~27k available on east front. I've think they used about 50% of there ac on east front in that battle from what I remember. But I don't think that was 14k? hmmm



Ask yourself about your #'s now?



abulbulian -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 10:19:42 PM)

Helpless, I find your arguments counter productive to helping this game get some important fixes to Sov ac production.  I know you love the game, so do I.  So lets be part of the solution?




Helpless -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 10:20:59 PM)

quote:

Once again, how many planes did Sov have available for Kursk on July 43? By your numbers they had some ~27k available on east front. I've think they used about 50% of there ac on east front from what I remember, maybe more. But I don't think that was 14k? hmmm



Ask yourself about your #'s now?


What is Kursk?

Sorry to say but you sound very annoyed by your game result and now trying to defocus from the real problem, which is in the totally different place. It was pointed out by some other posters in the thread, but you seem to ignore it.



raizer -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 10:24:39 PM)

despite the claims and counter claims about air power/air frames lol-no one talks actual pilots-and someone goes to far to poke Glantz which I find amusing...push all this to the side....and let me ask the testers one thing- In a campaign game given 2 equal,competent human players, can the Axis have any chance to mount offensives ,say in 1943, when faced with the air horde and even gain a victory (amazing that no one actually played one)? I know 44 and 45 would be a historical NO for this and expect victory points to take this into account...and leading into another question why didn't the game come with a resign button-a throw in the towel button for pbem games, because it looks like the Axis players will need one. How can someone resign a hopeless game?



Helpless -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 10:25:09 PM)

quote:

Helpless, I find your arguments counter productive to helping this game get some important fixes to Sov ac production. I know you love the game, so do I. So lets be part of the solution?


I spent on Soviet production ~6 months altogether. Not saying it is perfect, but you have brought zero arguments for such a bold statements in this thread.

Sorry to say it - I'm not helping (watch the name) i'm making fixes right now.



Redmarkus5 -> RE: Sov Airforce out of control? (12/26/2010 10:28:21 PM)

I agree with Smirfy almost 100%.

The nature and tempo of air operations is very different from ground ops and in a game with a 1 week turn cycle it needs to be abstracted at some kind of 'sector' level (using an AG or Front assignment would make calculation of respective air commitments between the opposing forces difficult, I would guess):

1. Show me my total AC pool in an "Air Management Screen".
2. Let me assign a % of each AC type to each sector (Sector, industry, reserve/training pool) - see BOB II Wings of Victory for an example of how this might work.
3. For each sector, let me set the doctrine (some sliders would be good) and target types. Possibly, I should be able to prioritise key targets for the next 7 days by hex or type.
4. Based on the corresponding choices made by the other side, compute the air superiority situation in each sector.
5. Modify all air attack values based on the air superiority ratio.
6. Auto-execute all 'strategic attacks' (industry, ports, airfields, etc.)
7. Execute ground combat and factor in an air support value based on the % of AC committed to this role and the current air superiority ratio.
8. Execute an air interdiction check during each unit move using the same criteria.

Pop-up the air management screen at the start of each player turn after the Losses screen is closed down. Provide an option to suppress this pop-up.



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