RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (Full Version)

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rolypoly -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/7/2011 1:38:10 PM)

Wow. I just realised that IŽve spent my whole afternoon reading your AAR from the page 1... Good stuff [8D]
IŽll be keeping my eye on this one.



Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/7/2011 5:09:05 PM)

Well, you did great things, i am very interested in your winter... if you can hold a better-than-history-line with better-than-history-manpower/troops, it is an improvement.

Hope you do it "right", say you can start in 1942 an stronger campagin as the germans could historically.
with the finns and leningrad fallen, i hope you can do better

[&o] to your work. Great gameplay, good aar [&o]



EntropyAvatar -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/7/2011 5:47:50 PM)

You've played an excellent game so far, but I am a bit worried to see so many panzers and motorized units out in the cold. If the blizzard does a number on their morale, I don't think that's something you can fix with R&R later.



IdahoNYer -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/8/2011 7:35:04 PM)

EntropyAvatar - You're not the only one worried!! So am I! But if I want to try and maintain a forward presence instead of wholescale retreat, I need the panzers forward. Generally, I try to keep them in towns, behind the line (as you noticed, not always of course), and then use them to counterattack exploiting tank Bdes. They have been reasonably effective in that counterattack role.

I also want to keep the panzer divs close, hoping for a break in the blizzard with the variable weather to launch a more extensive counterattack.

So far, the re-building of divisions (11th Pz hibernating in Budapest) hasn't shown a big drop off of morale. We'll see. 11th Pz is back at 100% for everything but panzers, but has doubled their number so far (just over 100). I've got two other divisions railing back toward the west, and hope to be able to sned more. If they are out of Russia, I remove the temptation to use them. Once they are lower than 50 panzers, and under 10,000 troops total, they become candidates to "refit" at home.

I'm also resisting bringing the incoming infantry division reinforcements forward - at least I want to pull out a shell division from the front toward the rear before I launch one forward.

I've also lowered my TOE settings across the front - still too high at 70%, but don't want to go lower than that.



IdahoNYer -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/9/2011 5:09:13 AM)

Turn 28, Dec 25th 1941. Merry Christmas on the Russian Front!! The good news is that this is the last turn of Dec. The bad news is the blizzard continues....

Screen shot shows the start of the German turn, highlighting Soviet attacks

With 18th Army's two corps still around Leningrad providing its garrison, 16th Army is the northern most German army on the line. Up to now, a quiet sector of the line, with troops dug in with level 3 forts.

Soviets launch three attacks on the army, two of which succeed - despite the level 3 forts. Not that I'm that surprised at this point of course.

Not really understanding the logic to attacking 16th Army really - other than to attack, attack, attack. Sure, it produces German casualties - an attacking upset girlscout troop would push the Germans back in the blizzzard! But I don't see how this attack supports anything going on around Moscow - an attack just north of Kalinin, maybe. Here, no. In anycase, XXXXI PzKps with 9th Pz and an infantry division will respond and reinforce the line.

With Russian attacks here, I'll try and repay the favor a little farther up north and launch some similar attacks with the Finns to see if I can draw some Soviet troops north.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/4601E11F2F1E4A9BB33600CBE7A80F4F.jpg[/image]



IdahoNYer -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/9/2011 5:25:35 AM)

Around Moscow, the Soviets focus on 4th Pz Armee, attacking from the east to push back the salient north of the Soviet capital. Surprised 9th Army hasn't been hit harder.

All but one attack is successful, but at least we haven't had a unit isolated yet. We'll gradually fall back to the "stop" lines - 4th Pz Armee can and will disengage some panzers from the lines; as the lines pull west out of the salient, they will get shorter, allowing the panzers to pull out.

Kinda figured Scar would push harder here around Moscow - provide some "defending room" for Summer 42. He'll get some, but so far, we can manage the attacks.

One positive note, the first PzIIIj with the long 50L60 armament was fielded to the 1st Pz Div north of Moscow. Any good news helps right now



[image]local://upfiles/32782/0BCCE32873DA4BBE837F05BD2A6F04C4.jpg[/image]



IdahoNYer -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/9/2011 5:41:42 AM)

Tula, as expected, falls to the Soviets. Now I'm not as concerned about pulling back a bit. The fall back line is the Oka River, but I want to slowly pull back there. Soviet pressure is heavy, but not overwhelming - yet. Some of 4th Army infantry is still engaged in reducing the remnants of the Orel-Bryansk Pocket, now concentrated around Bryansk itself. Was hoping to be able to pull out 2nd Pz Armee panzers, but right now, that's now do-able. I want to hold Kaluga and Orel which for now, gives us some ground to give. We'll see how hard the Soviets push here.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/414FA10B688B4B1F8DF0B6262F267446.jpg[/image]



IdahoNYer -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/9/2011 5:55:41 AM)

1st Pz Armee avoided major loss by pulling back - note the lack of attacks on it. Soviets made up for that by attacking 6th Army heavily, 6 attacks, all successful. This included Sov Cavalry Corps advancing 20 miles in the attack south of Kursk. This also threatens the active rail line from Belgorod to Orel. Goal here is to hold Orel, Kursk and Belograd - and Kharkov to the south. We can give some ground, but not all that much if I want to hold these cities. 2nd Army infantry is beginning to reach the front from Orel-Bryansk, and will allow some of 1st Pz Armee to disengage. I'll likely have to pull some panzer forces from around Moscow to support 6th Army - only one Pz Div is south of Kursk - 10th Pz, near the Dniepr Bend at the moment.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/D885177B798B4330BF761ABE959551F2.jpg[/image]



IdahoNYer -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/9/2011 6:10:35 AM)

At the southern end of the line, the Soviets maintain pressure. 6 of 7 attacks succeed against 11th Army and Rum 4th Army. 17th Army is spared for the time being. The Rumanians are pretty much useless, even one of their mountain Bdes with a German Div got pushed back.

I had expected more pressue against 17th Army, but so far it hasn't materialised. I'm still going to push a PzKps south to control 10th Pz and the entrained Totenkopf Div. 60th Mot is going to reinforce the Crimean forces. With the 2nd SS Bde already in the area, and the mountain divisions deployed, this "should" be enough to keep the Soviets from doing major damage.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/67EB6A2A04A24125A7B1B874C6053946.jpg[/image]



IdahoNYer -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/9/2011 9:34:48 PM)

Turn 29, Jan 1st 1942....Happy New Year to the Landsers on the Russian Front!

The new year brings continued blizzard and Soviet attacks. German casualties reach the 1 million mark, with Soviet losses at 4.6 million. This means that since the start of the blizzard, the Germans have suffered roughly 440,000 men lost - as apposed to teh 590,000 lost from Jun 22nd through Dec 4th! Wow!

Soviets have lost 330,000 since the start of the blizzard if anyone is counting.....a mere drop in the soviet manpower bucket.

On the northern part of the front, the Soviets continue to pressure 16th Army. 9th Pz is committed to the line to plug the gap, and promptly loses 50% of its panzers and is thrown back - a lesson as to why its NOT a good idea to put panzers in line to defend. I should listen to this....

Of the four attacks, the Germans do hold off two and the situation is not critical. I'll pull 9th Pz out of the line and replace it with infantry, the Spanish Blue Div is also being brought up, just off screen to the west.

Now that December is behind us, I'll start bringing forward some infantry divisions from Germany and city garrisons, swapping the fresh ones out with blown divisions as some in the front are around 5000 men.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/8B941C2A602F4ADEB3C5F85E792466F7.jpg[/image]



IdahoNYer -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/9/2011 9:46:16 PM)

Near Moscow, Soviet attacks continue, and all are successful. However, this is more attritional warfare, no significant ground is lost, and the German frontage is actually being reduced. In 4th Pz Armee's area, LVI PzKps is actually able to pull completely out of the line and refit in towns behind the lines.

I'll continue to give ground slowly for as long as I can. And try and keep the panzer divisions off the line....

[image]local://upfiles/32782/C84119B1CC1E48A49B6FAD28B8F3BE1D.jpg[/image]



IdahoNYer -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/9/2011 10:12:50 PM)

South of Moscow, opposite Tula, the Soviet attacks continue to push AGC slowly west, as do the attacks aimed toward Orel against 1st Pz Armee.

This attritional warfare is bleeding the Wehrmacht dry, but there isn't much I can do about it, especially as I don't want to execute a wholesale withdraw west. So far, it is manageable....so far.

2nd Army is finally coming up in line in strength, and I've attached 1st Pz Armee's infantry Korps to 2nd Army to facilitate pulling 1st Pz Armee out of the line and shifting it further south.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/2C0D38ABFE9A4A7EA8E3ABD73686E494.jpg[/image]



IdahoNYer -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/9/2011 10:20:28 PM)

In front of Kursk, 6th Army is being pressured hard by repeated Soviet attacks. This is why I want to pull 1st Pz Armee further south, 6th Army is going to need help. XXXXVI PzKps HQ was pulled south to assist 11th Army, leaving behind Das Reich and GD Reg as 6th Army's mobile reserve.

Other than defending in a town or better - there is no effective barrier to prevent a successful Soviet attack. Not nearly enough mountain troops to go around, and I have been very dissappointed by the non-effectiveness of level 3 fortifications. So the Soviets can attack successfully where and when they want - but they seem unable to effect a breakthrough - at least so far and that is the critical point.

Of course the long term wear and tear on the Wehrmacht to continue the offensive in summer of 1942 is also a concern...

[image]local://upfiles/32782/96AB82C718104DBFB52E0F4BED6ABB23.jpg[/image]



IdahoNYer -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/9/2011 10:27:26 PM)

At the southern end of the line, Soviet's keep pressure up against 11th Army, but surprisingly, leave 17th Army alone. Very surprised at the lack of a thrust against Kharkov.

Continued pressure against the Rumanian 4th Army, but no breakout from the Crimea either.

XXXXVI PzKps is assembling just west of the screen shot - it contains 10th Pz, TotenKopf and 2nd SS Bde. Not needed right now, but in position to react to a crisis in either the Crimea or the Donets Basin.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/00011E869D2C4E7D874CFE621D926C1E.jpg[/image]



EntropyAvatar -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/9/2011 10:34:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer
At the southern end of the line, Soviet's keep pressure up against 11th Army, but surprisingly, leave 17th Army alone. Very surprised at the lack of a thrust against Kharkov.


Well, attacks cost him manpower too, and given how much you hurt him in the summer he might not have the strength to attack everywhere long-term. Besides, if he pushes you back north and south of the 11th, he extends your line and may oblige you to fall back on your own.



IdahoNYer -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/11/2011 3:28:14 AM)

Turn 30, Jan 8, 1942 Beginning of turn, showing Soviet attacks

Only time for a quick update tonight. Blizzard rages, Soviets continue a general attack across the front. AGN and AGC seem to be managing - barely near Orel, but managing. First 4 infantry divisions (around 5000 strength) being readied to rail west back to Germany for refitting, along with 17th Pz Div.

Major crisis developing here in the south. Cirlced units indicate "ready" status - all others are "unready". Not a good picture. Add Totenkopf, just north of the screen shot, moving south as part of XXXXVI PzKps to assist. Even with the PzKps, looks like the Soviets might get a breakthrough out of the Crimea or from the Donets Basin. The good news is that I've begun moving 18th Army HQ and two Korps (no divisions attached, just some support) are going to rail south to replace the Rum 4th Army - and be in position to attack into the Crimea after blizzard. Will rail out some of the new infantry divisions assembling from reinforcements, as well as the LI Korps, now part of the 4th Rum Army.

Rumanians are useless in the blizzard!

Elsewhere up north....1st Pz Armee is relieved by 2nd Army opposite Orel. It will move south to support 6th Army's defense of Belgorod-Kursk.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/B76F2166D248433DBEFD765E754B474A.jpg[/image]



IdahoNYer -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/15/2011 3:21:40 AM)

Turn 32, Jan 22nd 1942.

And the weather is........SNOW!!! Glorious SNOW!!

Timing couldn't be better - in the Russian's portion of turn 31, with the blizzard still raging, Scar goes all out, launching some 75 attacks, all but 12 are successful, including multiple attacks against successive hexes - something I haven't seen much of as yet. While no major break throughs are achieved, some areas of the front seem to be at the breaking point.

Then....snow....and the Germans are instantly rejuvinated. Combat power of most ground units significantly increase. Replacements are received. Time to counter-attack!

These counterattacks are possible not only by the snow, but by keeping the panzer divisions close by - usually just behind the front in towns or cities. The objective of these attacks are "spoiling attacks" - designed to knock the Soviets off balance by throwing their lead units back. Our strength isn't sufficient to achieve large encirclements, nor has Scar been able to exploit any attacks, so he is not that vulnerable.

In addition to the snow and attacks, 18th Army is offically activated as part of AGS, with 3xKorps relieving the 4th Rumanian Army against the Crimea. Four fresh infantry divisions are enroute to the army by rail from Germany. Also, 17th Pz and 4xIN Divs are being railed west from AGC to Germany for rest and refit.



IdahoNYer -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/15/2011 3:36:43 AM)

At the northern end of the German line (the Finns to the north make a few attacks to straighten out the line, but nothing significant), the 16th Army makes a few limited attacks, regaining some lost ground. 9th Pz of XXXXI PzKps with its 90 panzers and the newly arrived 1st In Div are committed routing one Rifle Div in the army's main attack.

The intent here is just to throw the Russians back and then in my next turn pull back to the fortifications. With only one panzer division available, we're not going to accomplish anything dramatic.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/3F891FB3FB834A3E8C13F7002448A453.jpg[/image]



IdahoNYer -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/15/2011 3:58:42 AM)

9th Army's front from Kalinin north remains quiet. Its southern divisions assist in 4th Pz Armee's spoiling attacks.

During the Soviet portion of the preceeding turn, 4th Pz Armee is heavily attacked - all of its front line positions are attacked, all but one is pushed back. Its 254th Infantry Div is the first German division routed in the blizzard.

4th Pz Armee counter attacks with its two panzer korps - the LVI PzKps attacks in the north, retaking Klin and pushing the Soviets back to their start line from their attacks. XIV PzKps, anchored by the strongest unit on the Russian Front, Wiking Motorized, also throws the Russians back. Infantry between the Pzkps likewise pushes the Soviets back.

These attacks, although successful, will only bring a temporary respite. 4th Pz Armee will withdraw west once the blizzard resumes, but hopefully gaining some breathing space.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/153B94B22EB947B88404A6AD3F6AB328.jpg[/image]



IdahoNYer -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/15/2011 4:14:35 AM)

Like 4th Pz Armee, 3rd Pz Armee realed from heavy Soviet attacks. Its counterattacks are also limited spoiling attacks, throwing the Russians back, and even routing a number of infantry divisions.

This will also serve as a temporary respite, provide enough battlespace and time to pull back to positions to the west.

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to pull most of 3rd Pz Armee's panzer divisions off the line - much risk here, exposing the panzers to Soviet counterattacks in their portion of the turn.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/4235EFF510AE4074A333FEB65323785D.jpg[/image]



IdahoNYer -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/15/2011 4:52:25 AM)

South of Kaluga, the situation maps are a bit confusing. 4th Army was in the process of relieving all of 2nd Pz Armee, and was being hard pressed by Soviet attacks. 2nd Pz Armee, had XXIV Pzkps near Kaluga, while XXXXVII PzKps with its 18th Pz (only 29 tanks remaining after heavy Soviet attacks and subsequent retreats) was south of 4th Army. XL PzKps with two very strong Pz Divs (2nd and 5th), had been resting in Orel since the start of the blizzard.

Here also, the Soviets spearhead their attacks with tank brigades, pushing ahead of the rifle divisions - ripe for counterattack.

XXIV PzKps attacks in the north, routing a number of tank brigades and rifle divisions, regaining lost ground. However, with the fighting against the rifle divisions, the PzKps is unable to pull entirely off the line. XL PzKps, very fresh and well supplied, attacks vigorously routing numerous tank brigades and a few rifle divisions. They gain about 30 miles in places, and have sufficient movement left to return to Orel to refit. These panzer attacks relieve the isolated 183rd In Div and allow 4th Army to regain lost positions.

Good success here, but again, only a temporary respite. If nothing else, the concentrated attacks by fairly strong panzer korps should give the Russians pause in subsequent attacks.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/95B8BB1CCA6D40DC97C9C8C5D5C8417C.jpg[/image]



IdahoNYer -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/15/2011 5:05:13 AM)

Even 2nd Army, without any panzer divisions, conducts spoiling attacks to retake some lost ground. Although its infantry attacks rout a few tank brigades, most rifle divisions are just pushed back. Note the lack of fortifications in this area - having just relieved 1st Pz Armee, nothing has been dug yet.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/F60D2195D4D24A868B93B2938356A3CC.jpg[/image]



IdahoNYer -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/15/2011 5:24:14 AM)

Between Kursk and Belgorod, 6th Army's lines are severely stretched during the Soviet attacks. 1st Armee was moving south slowly - taking advantage of towns and cities to rest the panzers - as they were re-positioning south of 6th Army after being relieved by 2nd Army east of Orel.

1st Pz Armee's two Pzkps spearhead the attacks - the weak III PzKps gains some ground north of Kursk, and 16th Pz Div is able to pull back off the line after the spoiling attacks.

XXXXVIII Pzkps fairs better, as it is quite a bit stronger. Here, Soviet defenders fight stubbornly, and for the most part, do not rout - Soviet Cavalry Corps in particular resist attacks stubbornly. Ground is gained, but the panzers are unable to pull off the line.

Like elsewhere, these spoiling attacks are only designed to throw the Soviets off balance and gain time.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/52D94FFBCECD4A698A67BF93AE9E8B87.jpg[/image]



IdahoNYer -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/15/2011 5:31:08 AM)

Like 9th Army well to the north, 17th Army has been largely spared from Soviet attacks during the blizzard, and its line has remained fairly static. Only at its juncture with 11th Army to the south, do the Soviets attack, one successful, one held. With no appreciable reserves, nor large scale Soviet attacks to counterattack, 17th Army's front remained quiet during the German turn as well.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/2BDA4E7D7F304F608CC7F13EF1E70DA5.jpg[/image]



Senno -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/15/2011 5:36:25 AM)

Exciting AAR.

Wonderful advance, can't wait to see how you come out of the blizzard.



IdahoNYer -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/15/2011 5:46:06 AM)

11th Army remains heavily pressed. Heavy Soviet attacks push the troops back - the Rumainians being particularly worthless. Even the fortifications and reinforcements from 17th Army do little to stem the tide. This forces me to commit the XXXXVI PzKps (10th Pz, Totenkopf) in a spoiling attack at the most critical point in the line. While it gained some ground and routed some units, I'm afraid it is not enough to stabilize the situation here.

Also, committing the PzKps here, is not really where I had intended to use it - against the Soviets attacking out of the Crimea. However, for now, it is needed here, especially with the new concentration of Soviet cavalry in this area.

While reluctant to give ground - it is here that I may in fact have to conduct a large scale withdrawal before the blizzard is done. Of course, of all the places along the front, I have the space here to trade for time.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/5EEC49DC90864B3FA86C77589138D82A.jpg[/image]



IdahoNYer -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/15/2011 6:00:40 AM)

Against the Soviets attacking from the Crimea, 18th Army establishes control over LI Korps, formerly of the Rumanian 4th Army - and its four divisions! The other two korps of 18th Army are not yet established or deployed. Heavy Soviet attacks have broken the back of the Rumanian forces.

Here is where I wanted to commit XXXXVI PzKps - but another crises loomed. Hopefully the snow will stall the Soviet attack, gaining time for 18th Army to stabilize the situation - without having to fall back to the Dniepr.

[image]local://upfiles/32782/C47576439AE84BABAD33C5CF539056AB.jpg[/image]



Aussiematto -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/15/2011 9:56:29 AM)

I am really going to be comparing this to mine... I have the same strategic problem with crimea not taken at the moment. I am already digging in, turn 15, and have high hopes for my Rumanian allies (am I foolish?)



IdahoNYer -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/15/2011 6:26:19 PM)

Don't pen your hopes on your Rumanians!!!! I figured with some German divisions as "corset stays", the Rum 4th Army could easily hold the entrance to the Crimea through the blizzard.

WRONG WRONG WRONG!



IdahoNYer -> RE: Return to Smolensk and Beyond, IdahoNY vs Scar (3/18/2011 5:27:53 AM)

Turn 34; Feb 5, 1942.

The good news was that in the Russian portion of the snow turn 32, not a single Soviet unit attacked! That was a bit unexpected. Welcome, but, unexpected.

As expected, the blizzard returned on turn 33. With the blizzard turn, I pulled back one hex in most areas - those gains in the spoiling attacks were largely given up. Trading a bit of space for time. Not enough space however to prevent a good number of Soviet attacks. Back to blizzard standard operating procedures!

The good news is that Soviet casualties have exceeded 5 million men! These blizzard attacks are costing both sides heavily, but the Russians can absorb them a lot easier.

My "reserve" force of battered units I've sent back west to refit is starting to mature. 11, 17 and 20th Pz are all over 95% rebuilt and well over 100 AFVs - including the new PzIIIj/60. 16th Mot is also rebuilt. Including uncommitted reinforcements, 8xIN divisions are also available. My intent is to keep this reserve force fresh - not exposed to blizzard effects - and rail them east to spearhead the counterattack in March. Timing will be critical.

The following screen shots show the Soviet attacks from Turn 33




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