RE: Get rid of fuel (Full Version)

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BigWolfChris -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/30/2010 4:54:24 PM)

I've noticed that Resupply Ships won't fire weapons or auto launch fighters/bombers while deployed, which is well... useless
Sure, not having weapons active is fine, but surely when deployed the standard action should be to deploy all fighters and bombers (and refuelling/relaunching as needed) in order to maintain some defence

While the player can manually assign a protection detail, the AI will usually leave such a ship by itself, making it an easy target

The downside of planting bases in a build up to an attack, is it takes time to build, and your intentions could be clear as day (Sure, the AI isn't smart enough to know, though it should become a target if you're already at war)
You are faced with having a protection fleet or leaving the base open to attack, either way though should draw attention

* As a sidenote, construction ships won't use their weapons while building bases either



Howard Mitchell -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/30/2010 5:40:33 PM)

I like the fuel aspect of the game as well. My first few fleet offensives ran out of steam because I didn't plan properly, but now I do as Shark7 suggests and pre-position suppliesready to roll with the fleets. I personally like to use re-supply ships as I can switch them around to whatever area of my empire is under threat (or getting ready to be expanded) rather than static bases, but it's a good tactic and I'll try it out myself. Rather than a chore I see it as a fun aspect of the game that rewards good planning.



PaulP -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/30/2010 6:02:51 PM)

Suggesting to remove fuel from DW would be like suggesting we remove knights from chess. It just wouldn't be the same.

And I'll chime in to say that refueling isn't micro managey imo. The only time I've had issues with fuel is when the transport network was failing badly, but I haven't had that happen since installing the beta patch. As long as the ports have fuel, issuing a refuel at nearest order before sending off your fleet is easy.

One thing that would be nice though is if fleets would auto-refuel at base when given the order to return to base.



cmdrnarrain -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/30/2010 9:28:45 PM)

I never said to remove fuel completely, just the mircomanaging of fuel.  Nothing any of you have said is any different then supply bubbles e.g. refueling ships, bases, etc except that you wouldn't have to micromanage if all of your ships are topped off or not.  It would also mean that if you assigned a ship to guard something they would guard it instead shooting the first enemy and then jumping off to refuel while the second enemy ship colonizes the planet or blasts the base.



Shark7 -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/30/2010 10:09:14 PM)

You must have a completely different definition of micro-managing than I do. I do not 'micro-manage' fuel in DW, period. The economy takes care of itself. If I have a shortage, the AI builds new gas miners for me. If I leave my ships automated, they refuel when needed. If my fleet is defending a planet, it will refuel (usually at that planet if I own it) when it needs fuel. I don't have to do anything, these things take care of themselves.

The only two instances where I intervene in the fuel supply in DW is when I order a fleet to top off before sending it to a far off location or when I build Gas Miners (or deploy a resupply ship) near territory I plan to attack to make sure I have a close by refueling base. That is not my definition of micro-managing...that is me simply making sure my fleets are ready to fight when I send them, meaning that is my pre-war planning...I would do it in any game. When I play War in the Pacific AE and I want to invade an enemy held base, the first thing I do is move fuel and supply to a forward location to prepare for the attack...its the same thing in DW with topping off fleets and building forward refueling bases...its called preparation.

So no, I want no changes to fuel in DW. I think it is working quite well just like it is.



noname -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/30/2010 10:27:27 PM)

First of all, I don't even own the game yet. I 'm just reading these posts to find out if I want to buy it. So far one of my biggest objections is FUEL. It sounds like a pain in the neck. I don't want to micro manage anything. I came to this conclusion before reading the post by cmdrnarrain too. You might say that I don't know what I'm talking about since I haven't played the game, but fuel has been mentioned many times here on the forums and usually as a problem of some kind.



Shark7 -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/30/2010 10:31:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: noname

First of all, I don't even own the game yet. I 'm just reading these posts to find out if I want to buy it. So far one of my biggest objections is FUEL. It sounds like a pain in the neck. I don't want to micro manage anything. I came to this conclusion before reading the post by cmdrnarrain too. You might say that I don't know what I'm talking about since I haven't played the game, but fuel has been mentioned many times here on the forums and usually as a problem of some kind.


It isn't a problem. Your AI civilian economy will produce and transport and store so much of it you should never have to do anything. Some of us are old time wargamers, and we tend to over-prepare.

Fuel...you might occasionally have a shortage (though this seems to have been fixed definitively with the default 'do not refuel other empires ships' setting). And even if you do have a shortage, it is self-correcting...there is no micro-management involved. Since the beta patch release, I have not had a single problem keeping my entire empire (civilian and military) fueled and ready to go.



Slyke57 -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/30/2010 10:55:09 PM)

I have rarely had an issue with fuel, maybe once or twice which was just because a bunch of my mining facilities were blown away due to poor security at the time.  Happened to be most of my sources for that fuel type O.o, but that's the fun part!  I enjoy starting with a struggling empire in a hostile zone and slowly making it peaceful.
Too many people are too used to games that are too simple.  Though some of those game revolve more around action and physical strategy and are still fun xD (too too too)



LoBaron -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/30/2010 11:06:32 PM)

Not sure what the debate is all about.

The fuel system is a integral part of the economy system, removing it would destroy a major part of the game.

Refueling is as easy as it gets:
Ships set to AI do it automatically.
Fleets, well, simply right click and select refuel at x and you are fine.

DW is a game where you play better when planning ahead a bit and thats the way it should be, no?



Sithuk -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/30/2010 11:39:16 PM)

LoBaron: The issue arose mainly due to large manually controlled invasion fleets not being able to re-fuel because the default size space ports normally do not have enough fuel on board. Cue major micromanagement headache to get the ships refuelled at multiple bases.

The solution as mentioned on this thread is to build a few mega-space ports with 24+ docking bays, massive cargo space and 4+ gas collectors to collect fuel. Use these as re-fuelling bases for the manually controlled mega fleets.



Queeg -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/30/2010 11:48:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sithuk

The solution as mentioned on this thread is to build a few mega-space ports with 24+ docking bays, massive cargo space and 4+ gas collectors to collect fuel. Use these as re-fuelling bases for the manually controlled mega fleets.



Folks have suggested several interesting solutions using the existing game mechanics. I see no need to scrap the current system.



forsaken1111 -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/31/2010 1:52:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: noname

First of all, I don't even own the game yet. I 'm just reading these posts to find out if I want to buy it. So far one of my biggest objections is FUEL. It sounds like a pain in the neck. I don't want to micro manage anything. I came to this conclusion before reading the post by cmdrnarrain too. You might say that I don't know what I'm talking about since I haven't played the game, but fuel has been mentioned many times here on the forums and usually as a problem of some kind.

It really isn't as bad as you think. Try the game out before complaining about it.

I have to wonder if the people having fuel troubles are not using the beta patch which fixes many of the shipping issues. Since using the beta patch my civilian shipping has been top notch, almost always filling their holds each trip and stuff gets where it is needed. I doubled the cargo capacity on all of my starbases as well. I have no fuel concerns at all.



Queeg -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/31/2010 2:57:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: forsaken1111

I have to wonder if the people having fuel troubles are not using the beta patch which fixes many of the shipping issues. Since using the beta patch my civilian shipping has been top notch, almost always filling their holds each trip and stuff gets where it is needed. I doubled the cargo capacity on all of my starbases as well. I have no fuel concerns at all.


I'm also using the beta patch and have had no serious fuel issues either.



Shark7 -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/31/2010 4:06:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: forsaken1111


quote:

ORIGINAL: noname

First of all, I don't even own the game yet. I 'm just reading these posts to find out if I want to buy it. So far one of my biggest objections is FUEL. It sounds like a pain in the neck. I don't want to micro manage anything. I came to this conclusion before reading the post by cmdrnarrain too. You might say that I don't know what I'm talking about since I haven't played the game, but fuel has been mentioned many times here on the forums and usually as a problem of some kind.

It really isn't as bad as you think. Try the game out before complaining about it.

I have to wonder if the people having fuel troubles are not using the beta patch which fixes many of the shipping issues. Since using the beta patch my civilian shipping has been top notch, almost always filling their holds each trip and stuff gets where it is needed. I doubled the cargo capacity on all of my starbases as well. I have no fuel concerns at all.


Using the beta patch I have no troubles at all. In fact, I have become a massive trading empire of all things. I have 2.5 million cash on hand, a merchant fleet of around 400 ships, and a military fleet of around 200 ships. And they all have plenty of fuel...even when all using caslon (haven't developed hydrogen burning reactors yet). The neat thing is that I am making more money from trade than from taxes...poor little bugs, they have no idea they are funding their own eventual destruction. [:D]



LoBaron -> RE: Get rid of fuel (12/31/2010 9:21:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sithuk

LoBaron: The issue arose mainly due to large manually controlled invasion fleets not being able to re-fuel because the default size space ports normally do not have enough fuel on board. Cue major micromanagement headache to get the ships refuelled at multiple bases.

The solution as mentioned on this thread is to build a few mega-space ports with 24+ docking bays, massive cargo space and 4+ gas collectors to collect fuel. Use these as re-fuelling bases for the manually controlled mega fleets.



Thanks Sithuk. I did not have the patience to go through all 3 pages of this thread. [:)]

Concerning the OP thats the planning ahead part I was pointing to though.
No need to bash a feature of the game before one understands the feature.

DW is not as complex as other strategy games out there but it definitely deep. I am still delighted by the treasures that lie beneath the surface.



cmdrnarrain -> RE: Get rid of fuel (1/4/2011 4:18:06 PM)

I have no idea what half of you are talking about as it has no relationship to my original post.   
 
I have no problem with fuel in the economy.  I haven't had a problem with the automated part of my fuel management, just the micromanagement of fuel on manual controlled ships.  To help clear the air; below are some situations which annoy the hell out of me,
 
1.  Assign a warship to guard a debris field.   Enemy construction ship jumps in... assign warship to attack.  Second construction ship jumps in.  Warship destroys first construction ship and then jumps to refuel with plenty of fuel still on board to have destroyed the second constructor. 
 
2.  Assign warship to kill a kraken swarm.  Warship jumps in kills one and then jumps out to refuel.
 
3. Assign to a constructor to jump into a system which I don't have any other ships in and the Ancient Guardian has built several bases to see what is available.  The constructor jumps in and then immediately jumps out to refuel.
 
etc, etc.
 
I won't even touch the problems with trying to have a fleet with multiple ship class as it is almost impossible to run.
 
My solution to this micromanagement pain in the ass is to have fuel bubbles.   If you are in the bubble you have fuel period and anything outside of the bubble you don't have to worry about because you can't travel to.  Think MO2's range.  I really think it would help the AI out by forcing it to concentrate and prevent you from completing the original storyline in only a few years.  It would also prevent you from grabbing all of the choice spots early and require you to build supply lines e.g. remember outposts? 



Data -> RE: Get rid of fuel (1/4/2011 5:01:26 PM)

I'd like to elaborate on your solution....NO

Seriously, MOO2 was the GOD of this niche until DW but it's also a thing of the past; fuel bubbles? how realistic is that? why not have cell phone cells/bubbles in space also?



VarekRaith -> RE: Get rid of fuel (1/4/2011 5:33:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cmdrnarrain

I have no idea what half of you are talking about as it has no relationship to my original post.   
 
I have no problem with fuel in the economy.  I haven't had a problem with the automated part of my fuel management, just the micromanagement of fuel on manual controlled ships.  To help clear the air; below are some situations which annoy the hell out of me,
 
1.  Assign a warship to guard a debris field.   Enemy construction ship jumps in... assign warship to attack.  Second construction ship jumps in.  Warship destroys first construction ship and then jumps to refuel with plenty of fuel still on board to have destroyed the second constructor. 
 
2.  Assign warship to kill a kraken swarm.  Warship jumps in kills one and then jumps out to refuel.
 
3. Assign to a constructor to jump into a system which I don't have any other ships in and the Ancient Guardian has built several bases to see what is available.  The constructor jumps in and then immediately jumps out to refuel.
 
etc, etc.
 
I won't even touch the problems with trying to have a fleet with multiple ship class as it is almost impossible to run.
 
My solution to this micromanagement pain in the ass is to have fuel bubbles.   If you are in the bubble you have fuel period and anything outside of the bubble you don't have to worry about because you can't travel to.  Think MO2's range.  I really think it would help the AI out by forcing it to concentrate and prevent you from completing the original storyline in only a few years.  It would also prevent you from grabbing all of the choice spots early and require you to build supply lines e.g. remember outposts? 


What designs are you using that use up so much of their fuel?
I've never had these kind of problems with ships.



J HG T -> RE: Get rid of fuel (1/4/2011 5:42:04 PM)

Me neither. Also, I ALWAYS add several extra fuel-tanks to EVERY design, depending on tech, distances and purpose of the ship. This solves almost all fuel-related problems for me.



cmdrnarrain -> RE: Get rid of fuel (1/4/2011 5:45:38 PM)

Keep realism out it.  Actually cellphone bubbles already exist, they are called sensor ranges.  MO2 is just an example of the concept.  

Warships are computered desgined.  Construstors are the computer design plus a couple of additional fuel cells.



Shark7 -> RE: Get rid of fuel (1/4/2011 6:28:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: J HG T

Me neither. Also, I ALWAYS add several extra fuel-tanks to EVERY design, depending on tech, distances and purpose of the ship. This solves almost all fuel-related problems for me.


That and having adequate energy collectors for idle times. You have to put forth some effort in the game.



cmdrnarrain -> RE: Get rid of fuel (1/4/2011 7:38:04 PM)

"Me neither. Also, I ALWAYS add several extra fuel-tanks to EVERY design, depending on tech, distances and purpose of the ship. This solves almost all fuel-related problems for me.

That and having adequate energy collectors for idle times. You have to put forth some effort in the game."  

Isn't that the point?!?  I don't want to mircomanage fuel e.g. automatically putting extra fuel cells, collectors on every ship.

If the games requires you to automatically do something to resolve an issue to make it playable then the issue probably needs to be fixed.

Right now the first thing I do is redesign my starting exploration ships to be able to explore the whole map.  I don't have to mircomanage my exploration ships, but what is the point of fuel for them?  



PDiFolco -> RE: Get rid of fuel (1/4/2011 8:36:17 PM)

I don't like much the fuel system ! Not that I have something against it on principles, but I think that it 's something half-done.
I mean, ok, it's fine to simulate fuel and the need to refill it, but normally it'll be at least as important to have the crew on leave, make maintenance at bases, and resupply food, water, and weapons, than fuel !
Now we have ships able to to stay in space for years with only  need to refuel, eventually from RS ships, which give them ridiculous long range, and have this fuel aspect to micromanage, but the rest is absent...As mm everything would be a pita, I'd rather go with abstract resupply of everything via "range circles" .



WoodMan -> RE: Get rid of fuel (1/4/2011 8:58:05 PM)

When they stop at bases to refuel a few days go by, I always assume this is where they get food/water/crew from.



BigWolfChris -> RE: Get rid of fuel (1/4/2011 10:37:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cmdrnarrain
Isn't that the point?!?  I don't want to mircomanage fuel e.g. automatically putting extra fuel cells, collectors on every ship.

If the games requires you to automatically do something to resolve an issue to make it playable then the issue probably needs to be fixed.



Ok, but surely, by that logic we should also remove defences too? Since we have to micromanage weapon loadouts to get through tougher defences



cmdrnarrain -> RE: Get rid of fuel (1/4/2011 10:57:32 PM)

Twisting the point doesn't make for a sound agrument.



EisenHammer -> RE: Get rid of fuel (1/4/2011 11:37:23 PM)

Wouldn't your ship stop moving when it runs out of fuel? How about when your ships run out of fuel it can't move anymore, that would be more realistic. Now you have to do some real serious planning to get something done.

My real problem with DW is that it needs some kind of a ship range or a map that's twice as big as it is now.
Right now its just too easy to move across the galaxy at the start of the game.



BigWolfChris -> RE: Get rid of fuel (1/4/2011 11:53:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cmdrnarrain

Twisting the point doesn't make for a sound agrument.


I was attempting to understand your logic



caerr -> RE: Get rid of fuel (1/5/2011 12:59:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer
My real problem with DW is that it needs some kind of a ship range or a map that's twice as big as it is now.
Right now its just too easy to move across the galaxy at the start of the game.


The easiest solution as far as I know would be customizable galaxy size at startup. You can customize star amount but the map size seems to stays the same. I'm not really bothered by fuel ranges (or fuel in general, I think it's fine) but I'd like to play a map where traveling between clusters takes a bit more time, and strategically placed supply stations come into greater importance.

I can sorta do that if play a small galaxy, and to counter the low number of stars I can make more of them habitable.



Queeg -> RE: Get rid of fuel (1/5/2011 2:27:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cmdrnarrain

I have no idea what half of you are talking about as it has no relationship to my original post.   


I think maybe some of us were confused by the "get rid of fuel" thing.

I recall there being a setting somewhere (in Policies perhaps?) where you can set the level at which ships start worrying about fuel. I think the default is 50%. You might try reducing it.



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