What are Admin Points anyway? (Full Version)

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squatter -> What are Admin Points anyway? (1/12/2011 5:32:04 PM)


I like the Admin Point system as a general rule, but have a couple of issues.

Firstly, is it just me or does the 'tester's tip' of putting Soviet mobile units into static mode to generate large amounts of APs seem gamey?

It's like saying to Stalin:

ME: Comrade Stalin, I have fired your favourite army commander and replaced him with my man.

STALIN: You will be shot in the morning.

ME: Don't worry, I removed all the trucks from a motorised brigade in Bryansk.

STALIN: Oh, why didnt you say so? That's fine then, carry on.

What exactly do Admin points represent? The manual says something about "the ability to ammend the chain of command." How does me denying units trucks affect my political standing vis a vis my totalitarian ruler?



ComradeP -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/12/2011 5:43:37 PM)

I guess you could AP's for placing units to static because it also costs points to reactivate them. There are plenty of gamey strategies possible with AP's. What Flavio suggested is possibly gamey in the sense that you're reactivating a different unit than you set to static, but taking the vehicles from a unit is in my opinion not gamey per se.

AP's are this game's equivalent of prestige points, political points, whatever you want to call them. Nobody really knows what they're supposed to represent, just that they're there as some sort of in-game currency necessary to limit the number of times the player can take certain actions.



Flaviusx -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/12/2011 5:45:43 PM)

They are an abstracted in game mechanic representing limitations on resources, command and control, unit formation, etc. APs do a lot of things, particularly for the Sovs.

Because they are a resource chokepoint, players will naturally find ways to optimize their availability and use. But if you eliminate that chokepoint, then they won't have any restrictions at all.




squatter -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/12/2011 6:24:30 PM)

Yeah, I hear you both. Most of it makes sense.

Apart from the motorised units.

Why should one get so many APs for entering static mode with a motorised unit? Is there any logic behind this? I mean, the primary purpose for using static mode is to free up trucks, not to enable upper echelon command and control changes. There is no correlation between the two as far as I can see.

I mean, presumably whoever decided that the SU would get xx Admin Points per turn didnt settle on xx thinking that yy number would be added in the early turns through de-motorisation. I would suggest that yy in this case is a distortion of the APs the SU was designed to receive. 



Flaviusx -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/12/2011 6:41:25 PM)

Freeing up APs by setting units on static mode is a deliberate design choice. Not sure what the issue is here.

The Germans can take advantage of this as well. It's not just a Soviet thing.




Davekhps -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/12/2011 8:21:38 PM)

Having played both an Axis CG and now into 1942 in my Soviet CG, I'm thinking the Admin Point situation is a bit unbalanced in the game.  Scratch that-- a LOT unbalanced.

The Soviets are constantly starved for AP, needing it for everything.  I like this-- it forces me to choose what I want to do, and teaches me that I can't do everything I want, at least not all at once.  That, when combined with the expected motor pool hit for the mid- to late-war Soviet player, is a welcome realism mechanic (well, "welcome" for the game's longevity on my hard drive-- it's NOT welcome when I'm trying in-game to manage the Soviet colossus!).

The Axis, however, face the exact opposite situation.  AP are a little scarce in 1941, but unlike with the Soviets, their command structure is nice and clean at the start, requiring only tweaking along the way (even the leaders are better, so you're not dealing with a need to do wholesale dismissals).  What's more, the Axis player won't have to deal with forming new SUs, units and HQs by the bucketload, nor merging units into rifle, tank and mechanized corps.  Finally, one winter's worth of changing over an Army Group or two to static leaves the Axis player with hundreds of AP, if not a max load of 500 AP, an effectively inexhaustible store of AP for the rest of the game. 

Basically, while the AP mechanic acts as a proper limitation on a Soviet player, they appear to me to be practically meaningless for an Axis player.

I know that players can adjust the numbers of AP if they so choose, so I'm not lobbying for any official change, but the imbalance strikes me as perhaps unnecessarily pronounced, even allowing for the (historical) fact that the Germans had a far more flexible command structure and thus shouldn't be penalized as much as  Soviet player.

Am I missing something here?  Or is this something even the veteran players notice?



Flaviusx -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/12/2011 8:25:58 PM)

You are indeed starved for APs as the Soviet. But I'm pretty convinced that we've hit the sweet spot. There's just enough to do the job, and there's a few tricks available to squeeze out extra APs.

Note that Soviet per turn APs increase to 60 in 1942.

You'll get more efficient in your AP spending as you play more. If we added more APs to the game, it could tip things over for the veteran Soviet player and the Red Army would blow up.



usecase -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/12/2011 8:29:29 PM)

Well, as someone who mostly plays Soviets, I've got more APs than I know what to do with by the end of '42. I think it's working well - the Red Army was disorganised and punching below its weight due to (amongst other things) poor command structures and organisations.

I think the poor Axis players have enough problems if they don't eviscerate the Sovs in the first twelve months. Once you can field a reasonable set of rifle corps, it's "Goodnight Lili Marlene" for the Krauts.



karonagames -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/12/2011 8:32:59 PM)

quote:

they appear to me to be practically meaningless for an Axis player.


Wait until you play a 1943 campaign - you will be screaming for more APs, and resorting to Flavio's gamey techniques to squeeze more out of the game. The constant re-organisation you have to do, and the transfering of units between active and non-active sectors will burn up APs with no problems at all. If you decide on a Fortifed Zone-based defence to get you through the winters, then I can assure you that you will never-ever have enough APs.



Davekhps -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/12/2011 9:21:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

You'll get more efficient in your AP spending as you play more. If we added more APs to the game, it could tip things over for the veteran Soviet player and the Red Army would blow up.


Oh, again, I *like* the Soviet AP limits in 1941, I'm having fun with that. It was the German AP limits that seemed out of line.

RE: what BigA said about the 1943 scenario, the difference there is you start out with a pre-set amount of AP not at all reflective of what a competent human Axis player beginning in 1941 would have amassed had they been playing through 1943-- again, all it takes is a single Army Group spending a couple seasons on static to amass a horde of APs, a situation that would have certainly occured prior to our 1943 scenario starting. Essentially, it seems to me that the Axis AP at the start of 1943 is artificially low, given how the game mechanic works in practice. That's fine with me, of course-- it makes things fun-- but it is noteworthy.

Bottom line: the AP system is very victory-dependent, i.e. if you're winning by 1942/1943, you won't have to worry about APs, but if you're losing, things are very different.

If you're having a bad war, you'll probably also be short of AP. If you're having a good war, you'll have more AP than you know what to do with. There's probably no easy way to balance that and still rely on the Admin Point mechanic to limit what a player can do.

(Why is this important? In real life, command and control doesn't magically become easier simply because you're *winning*. Sure, some things are made easier by the sweet taste of victory-- like dismissing leaders-- but if the point of the AP mechanic is to realistically represent the real-world limitations of a human commander trying, and failing, to do everything at once, that mechanic doesn't appear to survive past the 1941/1942 turns, at least against the A.I.)

Again, at least the Soviets have an additional limiting factor in play-- their motor pool troubles can act as a brake on their late-war success. A winning Axis player come 1942/1943, however, appears to me to have few, if any, limits to what they can get away with. Unlike with the Soviets, there just isn't enough things to *spend* AP on for an Axis player.

Anyway, thanks for the perspectives. I think that in any future human Axis vs. Soviet AI games I'll probably handicap myself more WRT the admin points just to keep it interesting. I'm sure when it comes to human players, however, it'll be a much different situation...



squatter -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/12/2011 10:46:56 PM)

How about making Aps non cumulative? Same amount per turn, but spend them or lose them?



Flaviusx -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/12/2011 10:51:30 PM)

Meh. Noncumulative APs would make the game a lot less interesting from a planning standpoint. Nor does it particularly make sense.




squatter -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/12/2011 10:57:42 PM)

Not that I'm convinced its the right idea, but to see if it stands up any further:

What exactly makes 'sense' about the current rules for APs?

If they represent 'you as a commander's limited capacity to influence your Army structure given the limitations of time', then non cumulative makes total sense to me. That simulates there's-only-so-much-one-man-can-do-in-24hrs better than hording up points.



Flaviusx -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/12/2011 11:06:22 PM)

Because it is more than just that, particularly for the Soviets. It's their production and conversion currency, and capping that on a weekly basis seems dubious to me.






squatter -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/12/2011 11:20:27 PM)

What do you mean by production and conversion currency exactly? Is that a real world concept or a game concept?



Jakerson -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/12/2011 11:23:00 PM)

As said on the manual AP are design choice with could be changed from the options to control amount of micromagement inside the game.

Those player who want to play more casual and faster games could set AP low so there is only limited number of micromanagement per turn and those players who want to play games with a lot of micromagement and optimization trough it could set a lot more AP per turn in their games.

I just love this design choice as I want to have some micromagement but not too much each turn and I can have control how much there is micromagement needed and can be done.

AP are abstract way to simulate the fact that HQ have time limits how much they can do in one week so players have to choose with areas they want their HQ to focus on each week but they could be also used to control number of micromanagement inside the game.



Flaviusx -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/12/2011 11:25:41 PM)

I mean just that. They buy units and convert and upgrade units with APs. It's not immediately obvious to me why this should be capped on a weekly basis and the slate wiped clean from turn to turn.

It's not just about firing commanders and reassignments for the Soviets. The AP game is much deeper for them than the Germans, and they ought to be rewarded for planning and foresight and, yes, stockpiling if need be. Forcing them to spend their APs artificially each turn would be extremely unfun and take away a huge dimension of the game away from the Soviet standpoint. Managing APs is a big part of the game for the Red Army.




pompack -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/12/2011 11:30:08 PM)

I think that APs are an elegant solution to a number of sticky problems. I like the way that it works.

As for the Germans, anyone who thinks that the Germans have too many APs has not tried to manually control SUs or move an Army from one Army Group to another while maintaining decent leaders (for Germans and Finns, maintaining not totally worthless leaders for the minors)



squatter -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/13/2011 12:25:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakerson

AP are abstract way to simulate the fact that HQ have time limits how much they can do in one week so players have to choose with areas they want their HQ to focus on each week but they could be also used to control number of micromanagement inside the game.



So presumably you agree it doesnt make sense to accrue APs over time?



Jakerson -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/13/2011 12:33:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter
So presumably you agree it doesnt make sense to accrue APs over time?


It's support operations that takes longer than two or more weeks to complete. Even if you use AP on week X to finish something dosent mean that HQ is not doing anything on those week that AP are not used. So it makes sence to stockpile points.



pompack -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/13/2011 1:26:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter
So presumably you agree it doesnt make sense to accrue APs over time?


It's support operations that takes longer than two or more weeks to complete. Even if you use AP on week X to finish something dosent mean that HQ is not doing anything on those week that AP are not used. So it makes sence to stockpile points.



agree completely



Davekhps -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/13/2011 1:44:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

As for the Germans, anyone who thinks that the Germans have too many APs has not tried to manually control SUs or move an Army from one Army Group to another while maintaining decent leaders (for Germans and Finns, maintaining not totally worthless leaders for the minors)


Except, you know, I have, and I did, and I still ended up with 500 AP by mid-1942 as the Axis. [8|]

Again, not complaining, not lobbying for a change... just noting that compared to the Soviets, in 1941 campaign games against the Soviet AI, my personal experience has not found AP to be a limiting factor for the Axis.

To each their own!



pompack -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/13/2011 2:49:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Davekhps


quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

As for the Germans, anyone who thinks that the Germans have too many APs has not tried to manually control SUs or move an Army from one Army Group to another while maintaining decent leaders (for Germans and Finns, maintaining not totally worthless leaders for the minors)


Except, you know, I have, and I did, and I still ended up with 500 AP by mid-1942 as the Axis. [8|]

Again, not complaining, not lobbying for a change... just noting that compared to the Soviets, in 1941 campaign games against the Soviet AI, my personal experience has not found AP to be a limiting factor for the Axis.

To each their own!



I guess I switch stuff around too much; I'm in late 42 and I try hard to maintain 100 AP in reserve but it is hard to do.



FredSanford3 -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/13/2011 4:04:33 AM)

I'm just sort of 'thinking out loud' so to speak here- but what if APs were tied to VP's at some ratio?  If you want to reorganize your army, it's theoretically so you can play more effectively.  More effective play = more VPs (also theoretically), so in principle it's a common basis.  If you play a 'strict historical' game of keeping the same leaders, and the same organization, you get all the victory points you would get given the end of game scoring.  For that matter, maybe there should be optional reinforcements for AP/VP costs available at times, and this would simulate going to Hitler/Stalin and saying "if you give me X additional resources, I can deliver victory more assuredly".  Like say "put the German economy on a full war footing in 1941 for an additional 'cost' of 500 VP's, and you'll get a larger replacement rate for key equipment".  Of course you've now engaged in a form of deficit spending, and you better make those additional resources pay off by allowing you to take/hold more VP locations/kill more enemies.  There's no free lunch.  You could even 'handicap' a game by giving an inexperienced player more VP's to start with, so that he could either (a) convert them to AP's for the tasks AP's are spent on now, (b) spend them them on 'optional' additional units/replacements, or (c) keep them to apply to his score at the end of the game.



Aurelian -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/13/2011 4:37:27 AM)

Tieing APs to VPs would handicap the player who is doing poorly.

Optional reinforcements for an AP/VP cost would also favor the player who is winning. And for the Germans especially would fly in the face of their fighting on three fronts.

Telling Hitler/Stalin that you can deliver victory most assuredly would at best, get you sent to a camp if you fail. At worst, an execution.

You can already apply handicaps in the options screen. Don't really see the need to add VPs into the mix.



CarnageINC -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/13/2011 5:44:14 AM)

As a German player, I never seem to have enough AP's to help me out.  Yeah I micromanage my SU's to the most I can get out of them, yeah I'm rotating commanders out every so often so my uber good ones with high rank don't die as a Corps commander, yeah I'm reorganizing my armies the best way I know how but that's the only way the Germans even stand a chance at getting a draw in the end versus a person.  You Soviet players have your problems, Axis players have theirs, leave it alone and don't mess with something that's really not broken.



PyleDriver -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/13/2011 5:53:40 AM)

Ap's were one of the most tweaked aspects of the game we went through. We feel we brought it to a point where were close to keeping a historical balance, but agian your imputs are heard... As far as an AP / VP marrage, it won't happen, it makes no sence...



Muzrub -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/13/2011 7:14:10 AM)

I'm playing the '41 campaign and have not noticed any issues with the admin 'point' system as a German player- but I think that is mainly due to the fact I dont really get the system.

I just move about and do whatever I wish, I rarely- in fact I have never changed a commander.
Obviously I sound like a bit of an ignorant git here, but I never noticed the admin points- seriously.

But if someone wishes to explain the system a little more I would appreciate it.



alfonso -> RE: What are Admin Points anyway? (1/13/2011 8:39:43 AM)

I like to compare AP to (paper)work done by staff officers. Let's suppose that 1 AP is 5 (dayXstaff officer) work. As such, it should be possible to accumulate them (for instance, making a building might be 20000 man-hours, and so on). When commanders change, memorandums for the arriving commander should be prepared. When creating units, a lot of paperwork has to be done (organizing cadres, recruiting, ...). And when one unit has lost its vehicles, a lot of work (management of fuel allocation, spare parts, reparations) is released.



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