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Q-Ball -> AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/18/2011 10:22:28 PM)

I mentioned this in another thread: The opening German moves in AGC and AGN are pretty straight forward, but there are a ton of options for AGS.

Do you go directly south and link with Romanians? Do you maximize units pocketed? Which ones? Or push straight East? Do you use Panzers from AGC at all?

I played around with one opening: I don't think it's the best, but it's an option, to see what others are doing.

This is CONSERVATIVE, and focuses on pocketing units. Several things:
1. Did this with ZERO air support, other than fighters; you have to assume you used them all on Airbase Attacks
2. This opening borrows some Infantry/Cav from AGC, but no Panzers
3. Two positive results:
-Pockets 4 Inf, 3 Armored, 1 Mot Div; the 4 Mobile Divs are all pretty large and capable for 1941 Red Army (25 total CV).
-Clears RR line toward Rovno, which is most direct route toward Kiev

From the Soviet side, these encirclements do not appear breakable; either too far to go, or you would have to attack a fresh Panzer Div.

Any other options?


[image]local://upfiles/6931/3A5C6E6663E64AF18E6A16CE993E303A.jpg[/image]



Mynok -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/18/2011 10:39:10 PM)


I'm leery of trying to link with the Rumanians against a human. Maybe on turn 2 when you have more panzers available. First turn I like to try to kill as much in front of 6th army as possible and get as close to Rovno as possible.

That Soviet mechanized corps in the bottom center of your shot is unfun to attack and will cause lots of damage unless surrounded.




CarnageINC -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/18/2011 10:47:45 PM)

I think linking up with Romania...which can be done versus a human player...is  a gamey and unrealistic move to over extend your panzers and put them in such a vunerable position.  IMO this is probably the only gamey move that can be made for the Germans so far.



Q-Ball -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/18/2011 10:50:03 PM)

That's very true Mynok, but that Corps is pretty hard to get though without either borrowing Panzers from AGC, or splitting Panzers into Regts.

I think splitting into Regts down there is asking for trouble; too many Soviet Tank units that can maul your Regt, and set you back to square 1. (Right, Carnage?[:D])

My move only presents full divisions, and ones that didn't attack, so they should be able to repulse any Soviet counterattack at this point. Not to say my opening is the best one (far from it), but I am confident it WILL pocket those units against any human. You just don't get that incredibly far East.

(As a side note, the biggest problem is that Rifle Division on that Hill NE of Lvov. If it wasn't for that bad boy, you could move alot further SE. It takes several divisions to move them off that hill, a real pain!)

Any other options out there?



Mynok -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/18/2011 10:59:51 PM)


When I've done the "Rumanian Gambit" down there, I bypassed those units. I hit the tank div, inf div and cav div to their east. It's clear sailing to the Carpathians at that point.

I think 6th army could get further if it weren't for that rifle div in the rough right there on the border. That one is a real PITA. Have never used 1st Panzer against units in the 17th army area. I much prefer it to stay up with 6th army and encircle the next group if possible. If you can blow out the HQ near the swamps, you can get that bunch in the grips as well by using your panzers up there.



Klydon -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/18/2011 11:17:46 PM)

What is a good place to host pictures and I will post some of my AGS stuff. I have been working hard on this and think I have a good one to share. Wish my picture skills were as good as some of you guys, but I think I can get the point across.

There are a lot of issues driving down to the Rumanian border. Any attempt I have messed with is way too easy to counter and put the mass of Soviet troops to the west back into supply.

My plan uses 1 panzer corps from PG2 and some infantry from AGC, but the results are fairly impressive imo. The requirement to use PG2 armor will go away once I get a mod done I hope people will use and that is to basically FITEize the OOB for the Germans at start. I just don't see the point of locking up all those PG1 units on the first turn. This is the only game I am aware of that locks them up like that and it leads to a lot of issues.

One issue Q-Ball would have is where does his rail repair unit start going at? It is really important to get a path cleared out as quickly as possible so they can start repairing rail lines quickly and advance the rail head as far as possible (probably towards Kiev).



Blind Sniper -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/18/2011 11:19:16 PM)

Playing Road to Kiev I tryed to reach Chernovtsy splitting into regiments some units of the 1st Panzer Group, although the encirclement is breakable it works.
In a CG I would use the XXXVI Panzer Corps to reinforce the pocket, in the meantime 6th Army would march against Rovno.
In the second turn I would use the XIV Panzer Group to substitute the XXXVI and by now you need to choice if use it in the South or in the center.

quote:

IMO this is probably the only gamey move that can be made for the Germans so far.


Why? You can reach Minsk and Riga in the first turn too. I think this opening move is a bit dangerous against an aggressive player.



Q-Ball -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/18/2011 11:25:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
I think 6th army could get further if it weren't for that rifle div in the rough right there on the border. That one is a real PITA. Have never used 1st Panzer against units in the 17th army area. I much prefer it to stay up with 6th army and encircle the next group if possible. If you can blow out the HQ near the swamps, you can get that bunch in the grips as well by using your panzers up there.


Kind of like this.......

The PITA Rifle Div on the Hill is NOT Isolated, but it and the Tank Div to the SE can only move 1 hex, so chances are, they can be bagged within a week or two. All other units West of Lvov, though, will probably get away.

I checked this from Soviet side, this one is also Iron-Clad

To other comments:
1. You can go alot further with those extra PzG I units. I'm sure there is a good reason from testers why they are.
2. Taking Panzers from AGC is in itself a decision. Should you or shouldn't you? Once you send them South of the Marshes, I think you are committed for several turns with that. Think carefully.

[image]local://upfiles/6931/3B7C584D1BF04C819740C5E4EF0AA9EB.jpg[/image]



2ndACR -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/18/2011 11:32:22 PM)

I got a AGS that is even better than that one if you want it. I can even run a quick one and post the save of just AGS if you want. Bags alot more 1st turn units.

It will even isolate Lvov and that tank div next to it on turn 1.



Q-Ball -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/18/2011 11:36:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I got a AGS that is even better than that one if you want it. I can even run a quick one and post the save of just AGS if you want. Bags alot more 1st turn units.

It will even isolate Lvov and that tank div next to it on turn 1.


Do it, let's see it. Check it out from the other side though, assuming a good player will try to break your Panzer Regts with strong Tank units.

Or even better, maybe post the file, and we can see if it can be broken.....




2ndACR -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/19/2011 12:20:42 AM)

I will post the file. This one is similar to the vs AI, but can be used against a human. It does use some AGC units though.

Deep strike is too dangerous against a human. it will be a AGS only 1st turn.



2ndACR -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/19/2011 12:40:43 AM)

Here we go. This is my AGS 1st turn vs Human. I am a lot more willing to stick my neck out vs the AI. But it is a nice haul. It uses 1 AGC Panzer Corp that swings south, only air attacks done on southern air fields. Since I did not attack anywhere along the AGC sector, I hit a small ZOC that limited me a little. 1 Inf div at the top of Northern pocket should not be used due to I normally kill it.

All southern units can attack freely.

Weird, it wont let me upload the save file. PM me emails and I will send it out. I will post screen shot.




2ndACR -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/19/2011 12:42:41 AM)

Here is a screen shot.

[image]local://upfiles/9971/28C765BE16994C10B0F5A26DA99394F1.jpg[/image]



Mynok -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/19/2011 1:26:01 AM)


IMO that corps from 2nd Panzer is far more useful in the AGC area. Plus, most of your 1st Panzer divisions are useless for exploitation further east now. That's why I hate tying them up in the busy Lvov area. Be better off just making a partial run for the Carpathians by taking Tarnopol and cutting the rail.



Mynok -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/19/2011 1:28:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
I think 6th army could get further if it weren't for that rifle div in the rough right there on the border. That one is a real PITA. Have never used 1st Panzer against units in the 17th army area. I much prefer it to stay up with 6th army and encircle the next group if possible. If you can blow out the HQ near the swamps, you can get that bunch in the grips as well by using your panzers up there.


Kind of like this.......

The PITA Rifle Div on the Hill is NOT Isolated, but it and the Tank Div to the SE can only move 1 hex, so chances are, they can be bagged within a week or two. All other units West of Lvov, though, will probably get away.

I checked this from Soviet side, this one is also Iron-Clad

To other comments:
1. You can go alot further with those extra PzG I units. I'm sure there is a good reason from testers why they are.
2. Taking Panzers from AGC is in itself a decision. Should you or shouldn't you? Once you send them South of the Marshes, I think you are committed for several turns with that. Think carefully.

[image]local://upfiles/6931/3B7C584D1BF04C819740C5E4EF0AA9EB.jpg[/image]


That's the idea. I don't like seeing those 6th army guys heading the Lvov way. I'll run a quick one later tonight and show you what I find works pretty good...though untested against humans, it is designed to work against them.



2ndACR -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/19/2011 1:35:13 AM)

Well, I have experimented some with this opening. I find that against a human, it works most times. Combat can be pretty random. Take that Russian Infantry div that is at the top of 6th Army at start, 6 out of 10 times I can knock him back with 3 div and then 1 can keep knocking him back. This time, it took 2 3 div deliberate attacks to move him away from the border.

I really have no problems with the armor units, The blocking Div that is whole on the west side can shoot due east, the other split units can re-combine and shoot where ever you want. Those units all die turn 2 anyway. Turn 2 against a human, depending on what he does, I shift that Corp back up towards Minsk on the North side of the swamp. Just depends.

You have seen my vs AI moves, but against a human, I will not risk my units driving too deep turn 1.

I was just showing that on turn 1, you can bag more units on turn 2.



Q-Ball -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/19/2011 1:52:27 AM)

2 ACR, yours is interesting, though it does require extra Panzers. I also wonder if one of those Panzer Regts near Rovno can be nailed; there is a large Mechanized Corps in range SW of Rovno, that has 2 Tank Divs of 10 and 9 CV, plus a 3 CV Mot Div; and there are other tanks nearby. I think that pocket can be cracked. The others should hold.



2ndACR -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/19/2011 1:55:57 AM)

I have cracked it 2 or 3 times in a head to head. Of course I still bag basically all those northern units turn 2 or 3 as I leap forward. Combat being as it is, can cause random things to happen.

Oh they have strong units real close by. I can send you the save if you want it to try out. Just email me from my profile. I did set it up as a vs AI game but think you can go head to head with it.

Oops, forgot to compress it, here we go



Mynok -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/19/2011 3:45:51 AM)



Broke it. Doubt the northern units will be saved as they'll pocketed in the next turn, but they'll buy a couple turns of digging in the back and retreating down south.


[image]http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e355/Mynok1/AGS-Test.png[/image]



Mynok -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/19/2011 3:48:29 AM)


Two things became much clearer for me doing this interesting exercise: pinning Soviets is critical, and regiments are brittle for pocket holding. Controlling space in conjunction with pinning units is the key to holding pockets.




Klydon -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/19/2011 3:54:05 AM)

Ok, hopefully all this displays correctly.

On the first map is the AGS area in question. The two mech corps I have circled represent some concerns for the German player, especially if he goes all regimental on a smaller pocket. In addition, some of these guys have a good number of T-34/KV tanks so it would be nice to at least bang them around some (and even pocket) if possible before they run over the hill. The Soviet line of troops to the west and NW of these guys is also a PITA because of the armor there and also cav. (IE someone can move in and break an encirclement. I should have marked it on the map, but another target for AGS is the mech units around the rail cross roads near the boundry of AGC and AGS.

With only 4 mechanized units available (4 weak panzer divisions) and NOT concentrated, the Germans have their work cut out for them in this area. Only a full strength panzer corps is going to deal with two of the biggest headaches in the area in 34th and 12th Tank divisions. (The light blue X is next to both of them).



What we do to set this up is to transfer 10th motor division to XXXVI corps in PG2. (This is the panzer corps that is partially visible in the upper left of the screen). This has the side benefit of giving some relief to the badly overloaded corps HQ of 24 Panzer. We will also use 24 Panzer's 2 infantry and Cav div to help as well. Finally, we will need the 12th infantry corps to help break the north part of the line and free up 6th Army for important work as well. (12th infantry is the stack next to Brest-Livosk). While unfortunate that we have to pull some troops from AGC, I think the benefits far outweigh the detriments. 9th Army can easily cover the pulled infantry and AGC can still pocket huge amounts of troops like they usually do without the use of 46 Panzer. Eventually, I would like to make up a campaign game that grants the Germans the other 6 mobile divisions, which would make using panzer forces from PG2 a lot less necessary. At any rate, here we go. with the first map.



[image]local://upfiles/36689/ABEB4DED52B1476FB6DD0DC27A7E52A2.jpg[/image]



Klydon -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/19/2011 4:01:42 AM)

Ok, this is after the attack took place. Basically, I pulled troops from 17th army left and swung them around to the right to make the initial breach and then pushed further with the troops on the line there. The mountain region along the border is not isolated (no way to make this happen without driving all the way to the Rumanian border and that generally doesn't work). The mountain region will be cut off next turn.

One of the things I like to do early is to make extra wide panzer lanes. This helps my supply and gives me a lot of extra territory under my control, even if the Soviets try to close things in. I did not move the HQ's, but in my testing of this, everyone is in good shape supply wise and the panzers will be in the 40's for movement. 17th army sweeps from west to east to clean up the pocket. They may not get it all, but what is left will be very small. 6th Army is immediately free to continue the advance to the east, which usually doesn't happen in force for the Germans on turn 2. This puts extra pressure in the direction of Kiev earlier than normal, which is what we are after. The panzer forces can now safely head down to the Rumanian border and cut the troops pinned against the border and are also in good shape to take advantage of any other tactical situations that may present themselves.

One last note is to check the rail road repair unit. It has clear sailing to repair the line quickly in the direction of Kiev and there is nothing the Soviets can do as far as parking a unit on the line or doing a zoc on the line.



[image]local://upfiles/36689/73976A671F054732BF65BE290D491E4D.jpg[/image]



Klydon -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/19/2011 4:05:00 AM)

One other thing to give you an idea on the strength of 12th and 34th tank divisions. One was attacked at 2.4-1 and the other attack was 2.2-1. This was by XXXVI panzer that is something like a 40 point stack with the SS unit, motorized division and panzer division. Both tank divisions lost about 70 tanks each (they start with over 300). While it is unfortunate that one of them will get away (pushed to the east), the other gets pushed into the pocket formed and will be dealt with on turn 2.





Mynok -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/19/2011 4:27:54 AM)

That's a nice pocket, but you are going to sorely miss those 2nd Panzer infantry when you try to breach the Dnepr later. You won't be able to rail them back, and they won't make it through the marshes in a timely manner.

You will also get an HQ displaced against a human.

And yes, those two Mech units are serious trouble. Best bet is to pin them with infantry and use maneuver to isolate them eventually.



Ketza -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/19/2011 4:45:43 AM)

I like moving a corp down from AGC and splitting the front using 6th and 17th armies to set up a corridor for the panzers to push through and head to Rumanian border. I try to make a gap wide enough where the Soviet doesnt have room to reconnect lines. I am still experimenting but this looks like a promising start for the south and opens the whole front for Panzer thrusts. This is the start of turn 2 against AI.

[image]http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm11/Aztek43/AGS.jpg[/image]



Klydon -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/19/2011 4:49:53 AM)

Thought I mentioned that I did not bother moving HQ units as I was in somewhat of a hurry and it was rather pointless for a 1 turn opening.

The infantry divisions may be missed, but at least a couple of them were going to be on swamp duty any way. If nothing else, it could be looked at from the standpoint that AGC gets to deal with most of the swamp and 12th infantry is just there to hug the southern portion of the swamp and push east to keep things moving. They are also in a close enough position up there that they could catch up with the rest of the army group.

The other option is to use some of the 9th army infantry, but I don't think this is as effective because they are a bit further away and it would take more of them to accomplish much the same thing and I don't want that much extra infantry down south.

As far as pinning those two mech corps (especially the two tank divisions), you just can't get to them to pull it off. They will get away. I have not tried it yet, but I also wonder how they would do against a infantry division near them (as in attack it and see what happens). I may have to give that a try for giggles.

As with any plan, there are trade offs. To me, I would rather trade a bit of power on the Dnepr later for better results against all those units in the south. Getting rid of all those mech and tank units, especially with the number of T-34/KV tanks in that pocket, will pay dividends later.



ComradeP -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/19/2011 12:23:01 PM)

I really don't see how linking up with the Romanians is gamey, as you need 1 or 2 Panzer corps from AGC to do it right, especially if you want Rovno too. The Axis are in a way penalized by the frozen state of part of the mobile forces in the south, so if you want to go south, you'll have to compensate for it with AGC's mobile units. The Axis have to juggle the means they have, they don't have the ability to customize their army, only the ability to customize C&C, limited by existing HQ's.



Magnum88 -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/19/2011 1:15:39 PM)

The Romanian option is relatively easy to do, especially on Normal difficulty, and is almost impossible to break if set-up correctly. Challenging is harder because of less routing and more units possibly adding from reserve, which means more MPs used on numerous attacks and using units to pin reserves by moving next to them. Probably not unbreakable but AI has a very hard time breaking pockets anyways and PBEM I assume a Normal difficulty.

A few things make it less dangerous:
- Soviet units have few MPs Turn 1 which means no Tank or Mech division can do a deliberate attack (12 MP max though the manual makes it appear 8 should be max for mobile divison--manual error?)
- The units inside the pocket have almost no CV unless pocket is broken but have all their MPs but no threat for an attack
- Most Soviet units and all the close strong ones are in the pocket or just south of the Pripyat Marsh where you have all your infantry divisions
- Your most vulnerable units are the panzer/motorized divisons on the southern half spearhead and they are mostly protected by 1-3 frendly hexes which makes getting to them costly and units in area are weak



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/19/2011 1:23:48 PM)

Other than AP expense in the reshuffling (and I admit this IS a drawback, there are never enough AP early on), what is the drawback to using XXXVI Pz Corps from 2nd PzA south on turn 1 (where it will stay) and sending XIV Pz Corps to the east on turn 2?  This increases the southern striking power on turn 1, it does not irreparably harm the drive in the center (the XIV with full fuel should be able to catch up by turn 3 and the turn 1 drive should be strong enough).

This strikes me as just the sort of small-scale "what if" that the game should encourage -the reshuffling of available forces to meet a changing operational goal.  It is the sort of ad-hoc change of plans that the Germans could and would do.  Not particularly gamey, not out of character - I just don't know the full effect.



Klydon -> RE: AGS Turn 1 Moves (1/19/2011 1:30:55 PM)

I have played around with a dash to the Rumanian border. The issue with it is I can't keep the pocket unbroken, which means extra delays for the Axis unless they are willing to wait and kill stuff on turn 3. That is another turn's delay in advancing towards Kiev, giving the Soviets time to build up the river line and also to make it that much harder to slog through units between the pockets and Kiev. The issue I ran into down by the border is either the border guards (who do have good moral and can move to break the encirclement) or the very nasty Mech corps the Russians have over to the East on the Rumanian border who have no issues at all knocking a blocking broken down regiment out of place. This doesn't matter how much you send from PG2, it is strictly a function of what can reach from PG1 and it simply isn't enough to keep the pocket sealed from what I have seen. 

The other issue (at least for me anyway) is the panzers sent down there often get put out of supply and even if they don't, they are hurting on supplies for turn 2.



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