RE: June 42 (Full Version)

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2ndACR -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 4:01:25 AM)

Agreed. At least some serious red flags have been raised.

I am not sure what he has in his AAR, even though he offered to let me read it. I know he was never really keen on me pulling back and creating a buffer zone back in the mud season. Sort of ahistorical. But you are right, my guys have been neutered.



Mynok -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 4:12:42 AM)

And he's suffered nothing for abandoning vital territories to setup his impregnable line of forts. I really honestly think this is an issue with how devastating the winter is for Axis infantry. Even with an 80% factor on your infantry compared to 41 levels I think the Axis can do something in 42. As it is, they are looking at infantry at 40-50% capabilities at best. While the panzers don't seem to lose as much, they aren't the assault guys. They don't open the holes. That's the infantry and they are totally incapable of doing so in 42 post a 41 winter.




Q-Ball -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 4:18:15 AM)

Thanks 2ACR in the interest of science. I would like to see your defensive set-up once your done digging, but it's probably equally impregnible to the 1943 Reds.

It seems the German problems are being addressed in the next patch with regard to morale/experience, which should help the Germans recover. Maybe the problem is heavy fort levels, which grind everything to a halt.

It's very tough to create the perfect balance, because making it too mobile might completely unhinge the system too. But I don't think we want to see WW I here.



2ndACR -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 4:20:06 AM)

Correct. The winter just rips the German army apart. You can replace the manpower, slowly, but the current experience hit destroys you.

It is really hard to make the historical gains against a human. Some of that is my fault, pausing to allow rail to close distance, allow infantry to come up. All to preserve my panzer div. And I can live with those. But to have something out of my control destroy my army just sucks the air from me.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 4:20:54 AM)

The funny thing (well, not funny "ha ha" but funny-ironic) is that a Soviet player in this strategy will most likely lose the game as the German response to the Turtle in winter of 1941 is to pull back, dig in HUGE with regiments in a thick line, and win the game eventually after the most boring series of turns in history...the Turtle DOES start after the Summer advances after all.



2ndACR -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 4:24:26 AM)

I will post screen shots of course. I am thinking about my defensive lines right now. I am almost tempted to pull all the way back to my 1941 winter lines (god knows I did not get far from them anyway) and just start digging. Most still have heavy forts already so that gives me a foundation to build on. So that I can have 1 div occupy them and the rest to start digging behind the lines. To keep him honest and all.

Force him to come at me over the major rivers in Summer 43 and face that little evil.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 4:26:22 AM)

The 2nd winter you don't suffer either, and regiments build forts very fast behind the main line...



Klydon -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 4:27:16 AM)

What is also ironic is the German changes to ToE based on the fact that the original 1942 Germans had suffered heavy casualties over the winter, etc. I think one of 2ndACR's reports showed the Germans at 3.7 million strong before he launched his offensive. Granted the Russians were very strong, but the point is I don't think the Germans had nearly this many in the field in 1942.

Back off, dig in on the good stuff and dig in depth big time. If he comes out to play, I would immediately try to nail him in the open where he isn't dug in. Just have to watch your encirclements if you get any since he can probably punch out a single blocker. I would also take the rifles away from the Axis allies (except maybe the Hungarians) and give them shovels to help out in the south.



2ndACR -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 4:29:42 AM)

I will suffer, but not like the 1st winter. Yep, they sure do. And that is the current plan. I hate doing it, but I have no choice. Of course, recon showed him doing an advance in the south, so I might just re-direct a bunch of armor down there where he is out of his forts. And beat up on him there. In the meantime, if he wants to test my allies in their level 4 forts, he can feel free. Turn about and all that.



CavLancer -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 4:07:24 PM)

All our training is in ambush, retrograde movement, ambush... ;)

You have Russians in the open down south? :drools:



Skacee -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 6:28:21 PM)

It is still worth to play PBEM under those conditions? Personaly I am loosing interest more and more.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 6:39:00 PM)

We shall see how things stack up with the new patch that will address some of the concerns here, especially those of replacements and TOE changes that have really hurt 2nd ACR.



2ndACR -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 9:06:17 PM)

Yep, they were moving out of the defense down south. Looks like that is my new armor objective. I really don't want to turtle, but I see no other choice. I have 4 Panzer Div with under 80 tanks. I just cannot keep up the attrition.

I know my opponent was not happy when I pulled back to create that buffer zone, but IMO there was not any way for me to reliably defend that front. I put a 10 mile buffer in the north, 20 miles to above Smolensk, south of Smolensk to Gomel was about 80 miles, 50-80 miles from Gomel to Kiev, and about 50 miles all the way from Kiev to the city above Odessa. I honestly think there is nothing wrong with what I did. Any thoughts on that?





Klydon -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 9:26:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Yep, they were moving out of the defense down south. Looks like that is my new armor objective. I really don't want to turtle, but I see no other choice. I have 4 Panzer Div with under 80 tanks. I just cannot keep up the attrition.

I know my opponent was not happy when I pulled back to create that buffer zone, but IMO there was not any way for me to reliably defend that front. I put a 10 mile buffer in the north, 20 miles to above Smolensk, south of Smolensk to Gomel was about 80 miles, 50-80 miles from Gomel to Kiev, and about 50 miles all the way from Kiev to the city above Odessa. I honestly think there is nothing wrong with what I did. Any thoughts on that?


Nope.. has historical basis in that it was proposed by several in the German high command to "take a long step back" in order to prepare for winter. To most generals, they could care less about defending a particular spot if it isn't a good spot to defend. Given a choice, they are going to go find spots that are easier to defend, etc. As we all know, Hitler had other ideas on the subject.



huskerfan -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 9:56:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Yep, they were moving out of the defense down south. Looks like that is my new armor objective. I really don't want to turtle, but I see no other choice. I have 4 Panzer Div with under 80 tanks. I just cannot keep up the attrition.

I know my opponent was not happy when I pulled back to create that buffer zone, but IMO there was not any way for me to reliably defend that front. I put a 10 mile buffer in the north, 20 miles to above Smolensk, south of Smolensk to Gomel was about 80 miles, 50-80 miles from Gomel to Kiev, and about 50 miles all the way from Kiev to the city above Odessa. I honestly think there is nothing wrong with what I did. Any thoughts on that?





I agree. There's absolutely nothing wrong with what you did. You did what you had to do in occupying a more defensible position. As far as making your opponent happy...that's not your job. [:D]



2ndACR -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 10:09:44 PM)

Turn 58

I have shifted 2 Panzer Corp to meet his southern advance. He tried an attack on a Hungarian Mountain Brigade occupying a city and got creamed. He also tried an attack on a Hungarian Corp and got creamed there too.

It looks like he might actually be trying a general offensive. He has advanced his line 10 miles all across the Center area. I have pulled back some troops to move north as a backstop.

Two Hun Corp have begun digging forts in front of Kiev. Most of my level 4 have downgraded to level 2 and 3.

Here is his southern advance.

[image]local://upfiles/9971/502B316E7A9D400387C854AF69E80B0B.jpg[/image]



2ndACR -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 10:12:23 PM)

Turn 58

And here is why I cannot continue my offensive operations. This is 3 attacks worth of Casualties. It is shredding me armor corp.



[image]local://upfiles/9971/E6639B0CA05A49779539122C3153B887.jpg[/image]



2ndACR -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 10:25:01 PM)

I have lost 1300 tanks in 7 turns for exactly 11 hexes spread across my front. Not worth it at all.



Flaviusx -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 10:28:19 PM)

He is committing his green tank corps to the advance. Smack those. They will be no match for your panzers out in the open. Like that one south of Kirovograd. Don't let them win any battles. Pound on them, rout them, and send them packing. Don't let him train those up. Don't worry about surrenders, just knock the Soviet back. Cut off retreat routes where possible to insure routs.

This is where the Soviet is weak, transitioning into an offensive pattern out in the open with a poorly trained Red Army, lacking rifle corps and artillery divisions, and with his own mobile force only just getting their feet wet.






2ndACR -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 10:33:20 PM)

That is the general plan. Anywhere he comes out to play, I am going to pound him for all it is worth. While I dig in everywhere else.[:(]



Flaviusx -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 10:39:17 PM)

Try to get diggers behind your front line. I think digging as far back as Kiev is kind of a waste of time. You want to contrive things such that he absolutely never gets out in the open and any line you retreat from has a fort right behind it.

With regimental breakdowns you can spam forts at an incredible rate. Wish Bob was here, he could explain this better.

Also, enable your fort display. Nobody seems to do this, which is imo a noob mistake.

It's incredibly important for planning operations, especially in a turtle game like this.



2ndACR -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 10:47:25 PM)

I will do that next screen shots, the Huns are about 2 hexes behind my front. I am going to reduce my front line in the middle from 3 unit stack to 2 unit stacks to begin the digging in process.



Flaviusx -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 10:54:32 PM)

Oh, another thing. You may want to take some of those pioneer attachments you put directly into divisions and put them in HQs. Spread the construction capacity around. Remember that you cannot add more than 1 fort level a turn, and any hex with an excess of construction capacity beyond that is letting diggers go to waste. (Although I can understand wanting to go with 2 stacks up front for other reasons. A single German division by itself, with zero attachments, can practically dig in a fort level by itself a turn up until level 3 or so.)




2ndACR -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 10:57:56 PM)

I will do that. I have to keep my line strong right now up front. My infantry is too weak for me to trust right now. LOL

Plus, don't want him to feel to froggy in the middle once he starts to see my armor in the south. Got to have some time.



Pawsy -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 10:58:53 PM)

I had a pbem where the Soviet played a forward defence. No way to grind through, its wasteful of manpower anyway. Try allowing him to advance and back hand blow him. He leaves his forts behind. You trade space for manoeuvre.



2ndACR -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 11:43:07 PM)

Turn 59

Well, that Tank Corp hurt me pretty bad. LOL That is how weak my panzer div have gotten, but I routed them anyway.

[image]local://upfiles/9971/529BB731E02F455E903FD082DD66A8B3.jpg[/image]



2ndACR -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 11:44:40 PM)

Now some turtle pics for everyone.

North Zone 1

I will hold off until I get some more infantry up here before starting deep digging.

[image]local://upfiles/9971/DAE2AA327A78488BB88686A7EAA61436.jpg[/image]



2ndACR -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 11:46:14 PM)

North Zone 2

Same thing here, limited digging behind the line until more troops get up here.

[image]local://upfiles/9971/BBD1E7A71CB8487EB6F25730BFDCAB29.jpg[/image]



2ndACR -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 11:46:54 PM)

Central Zone

[image]local://upfiles/9971/53D7564DFA96447DA3C8A544AE80CA36.jpg[/image]



2ndACR -> RE: June 42 (2/7/2011 11:47:46 PM)

South Zone 1

Here I have a defense in depth already pretty well built due to the limited advance.

[image]local://upfiles/9971/B7C129E3DD944E5691E6DA051E9274B6.jpg[/image]



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