RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (Full Version)

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Shellshock -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 2:07:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Has nobody read any book about this type of combat on the east front?


Sorry, I musta skipped the Marvel Comic version where Panzer Divisions are rolling Death Stars that vaporize everything in their path.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 2:10:49 PM)

Madness?? [&:]

Where's the Sparta Kick? I want the Sparta kick! A Sparta kick was supposed to be on this thread! [:(]



paullus99 -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 2:16:14 PM)

War is always about the unexpected - no battle plan survives contact with the enemy & there are countless stories of battles won when they should have been lost, lost when they should have won, and soldiers that did more than expected or less than expected of them.

Over time, these results will even themselves out - and the Russians in 1942 are not the same you faced in 1941.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 2:18:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Madness?? [&:]

Where's the Sparta Kick? I want the Sparta kick! A Sparta kick was supposed to be on this thread! [:(]


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_s8XQQO7A6pM/S9N0dmlH1II/AAAAAAAAAG0/_y-HLZnnSmQ/s1600/this-is-sparta-7.jpg

[sm=00000622.gif]



CarnageINC -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 3:24:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

I propose devs release a special version of WITE for Ara and his mates, you start a game, click a button and get the following message:

GERMAN VICTORY, MOSCOW FALLS, SOVIETS SURRENDER.

German casualties: 0
Soviet casualties: everyone

Easy to develop and would suit some players. I propose this version be called WITE - Axis Fanboy Edition (WITE - AFE)


SWEET! This is the first I heard of this?!? When does it come out!



wildweasel0585 -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 3:24:36 PM)

[:D] Sparta kick. haha funny.

I'd have to agree with the general consensus: a Panzer division isn't invulnerable nor is something wrong with the game if a Panzer division suffers more casualties than the enemy in a battle



CarnageINC -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 3:29:40 PM)

Hey Oleg, I just noticed you got your avatar changed!  Did it finally work for you?  I should check mine, see if I can change it finally.



Terminus -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 3:47:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wildweasel0585

[:D] Sparta kick. haha funny.

I'd have to agree with the general consensus: a Panzer division isn't invulnerable nor is something wrong with the game if a Panzer division suffers more casualties than the enemy in a battle


And with losses that low? That sort of over-the-top reaction can only be a product of ignorance.



carnifex -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 3:49:03 PM)

Those combat results are totally in line with expectations. You ordered twelve thousand men to advance across open fields against an enemy supported by air power and artillery. You suffered nearly a thousand casualties and forced the enemy to retreat. This is not "utter madness" and if you are "without words to comprehend" over that, then you need to play a game that doesn't use dice.



bwheatley -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 4:13:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
But I've learned to live with the "freak" results - I have seen much, much worse than this but for Abu, this is too much, so I can understand.


Too much for him?? Every couple days there is something that is "too much" for him, it's not the first thread ba Ara that has "madness!!!!" or "insanity!!!!!" in thread title, because - boo hoo - bunch of people died in a WAR.

I guess every forum needs a Drama queen, and we have Ara [:D]

I propose devs release a special version of WITE for Ara and his mates, you start a game, click a button and get the following message:

GERMAN VICTORY, MOSCOW FALLS, SOVIETS SURRENDER.

German casualties: 0
Soviet casualties: everyone

Easy to develop and would suit some players. I propose this version be called WITE - Axis Fanboy Edition (WITE - AFE)



LMAO. Ya i don't think there is anything wrong with those results.

I am happy to see that my new IL-2's in the lines are having fun with their tanks. The IL-2 was the first A-10 style aircraft. Tank buster and built like a flying tank. They had all winter to get themselves sorted out too so they are not the flying morons of 41. :)

Just so you know ara i've also figured out air combat a little more. And spent a lot of time moving air units upto the front. So please be prepared for more death from above. :)

And i did lose almost 20 planes so i'd say it was a fair trade. But yea check the unit to see how many units were damaged.

I'd prefer enjoy the combat results being a little more verbose as well with telling you which things were destroyed & which were damaged. That might ease your mind a bit if you only lose 2 tanks and 6 were damaged.

And please don't bail on our game i'm having fun and i will cry like a little baby.



notenome -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 4:43:19 PM)

I don't believe simply criticizing the op for his frustration is warranted. As the axis there is very little room for error, so frustration for what may otherwise seem like a small issue is warranted.

The first thing that needs to be stated is that a lot of losses are disruption, which is to say the attacker didn't actually loose that many men. A lot of frustration could be abated if the combat report diferentiated losses (just for the attacker). So instead of ATCK lost 800 men DEF lost 800 men it would be

ATTCK losses           DEF losses
200 killed                  800 men
200 disabled
400 disrupted

The second thing is that almost certaintly what killed most of the units was the artillery and the Il-2s. Now the game seems to treat artillery as all or nothing. Either it participates or it doesn't. If it participates then it will be firing on the attackers troops at long range and they will take casualties. I can understand this in some cases but not in others. not so much. There is a window within which artillery can fire, which goes from its maximum range up to when the attacker gets too close to the frontlines that it risks shooting up its own units (the hug the Germans tactic the soviets employed in Stalingrad). In a Kursk like scenario it makes sense that the artillery would fire during the entire window, but that is more the exception then the rule, a great part of the art of the offensive is precisely reducing to the minimum the amount of response time that the defender has before the attack comences, so for example, one could make it so that the attacking general gets a series of checks to see when the combat will actually begin taking place. If he fails the first check it starts at 4k meters, makes the first fails the second starts at 3.5k meters etc. That way a greater variability of scenarios gets contemplated. The second issue has to do with motorized units, which seem a little too vulnerable to arty fire at the momment to be honest and whose speed in combat doesn't seem to be properly modeled. A motorized unit's greatest strength is precisely its speed, and methinks that some combat tweaking is necessary to account for the fact that the defender can fire many more rounds into an infantry squad moving forwards then a halftrack.

The last issue has to do with aircap, too many fighters are getting shot down by flak, which really makes no sense. The fighters are intercepting the Il-2s, which are flying over the german units. So how are the fighters getting hit by soviet flak? Also, the efficiency of ground support could use a tweak. Even if an Il-2 doesn't get shot down, it is simultaneously trying to evade a fighter whilst it also attempts to attack german units. That greatly reduces the Il-2s effectivness. What I would suggest is that if an air group is engaged by the CAP of the opposing player, its accuracy should be reduced by half to simulate how hard it is to line up an attack approach whilst doing evasive maneuvers.



karonagames -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 4:54:11 PM)

quote:

he first thing that needs to be stated is that a lot of losses are disruption, which is to say the attacker didn't actually loose that many men. A lot of frustration could be abated if the combat report diferentiated losses (just for the attacker). So instead of ATCK lost 800 men DEF lost 800 men it would be

ATTCK losses           DEF losses
200 killed                  800 men
200 disabled
400 disrupted


I expended a lot of effort in the development forums asking for precisely this. I wish disruption was more visible, as this explains a lot of variance in the CVs. In the end it was felt that the Combat report had to be concise and not take up pages and pages. The quality and quantity of information improved tremendously during the development process (look at the early AARs). I hope they can find space for disruption effects at some time in the future.



vinnie71 -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 5:05:01 PM)

Would IL-2's have that effect? Let's face it, he had fighters covering his division and therefore had a decent CAP (shooting down roughly a sixth of the attacking planes). Doesn't the soviet air attack get disrupted?



kirkgregerson -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 5:07:22 PM)

Well I've just had about of enough of the WitEAK people. Yes, it's my new term for these people that just jump on the a thread to say absolutely nothing and just want to (A)SS (K)ISS. Joel and Gary don't need your empty comments and I'm very tired of them too.

After looking at this post I'm very amazed like abulbulian at that battle outcome too. I'm even more amazed at the idiototic responses I've seen from people.


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Madness?? [&:]

Where's the Sparta Kick? I want the Sparta kick! A Sparta kick was supposed to be on this thread! [:(]






quote:

ORIGINAL: Shellshock


quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian


Has nobody read any books about this type of combat on the east front?


Sorry, I musta skipped the Marvel Comic version where Panzer Divisions are rolling Death Stars that vaporize everything in their path.


And there's many more. Calling these people retards would only be offensive to actual retards, so I won't bother.

I guess I should not be surprise at the low-IQ type responses on this thread, people like Oleg Mastruko have never had anything useful to say from day 1.

I'll give you 'little trouble makers' a chance to actually defend yourselves. You want to jump down abulbulian throat for posting a situation that WOULD have never occurred. So here's where I'm going to make you look the fools you are.

Let me just get this down again so maybe those that had trouble reading the initial post can make another attempt. Oleg, you can skip this part as you've already establish that your mental challenges prevent you from any sort of reasonable thought process.

It's spring 1942 and a sov rifle div has ventured out into the open terrain on a clear sunny afternoon to participant in an offensive against some Romanian units. It has a minor victory, but suffers a little fatigue and some slight loses. After hearing about this Soviet push a German general from a nearby PZ Corps HQ dispatches the well rested, elite, fully supplied/fuel and TOE stocked 11th Panzer Div to counter attack. The 11th Pz with it's brillant commander is within 20 miles and thus is able to go into action with little fatigue. It finds the 465th Rile Div and battle commences. The 90 battle hardened tanks drive forward and dust flies up all over the plains.
<inject fiction here now>
The Sov forces although with half the moral and exp of the Pz units are able to put a fantasy defense even though they have not entrench to any degree. They finally do make a retreat but are able to incur more loses on the PZ unit even though their leadership was sub-par.

LOL, yes some good fiction.

For those that posed silly, worthless, and non-objective comments like "I see nothing wrong", "that's how the games works.. live with it", "stop whining" here's your chance to post something meaningful.. if you can find it. ONE THING I'VE YET TO SEE IS ANY DOCUMENTATION THAT IS WOULD EVER HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE. Our we suppose the model the game on improbabilities or the probabilities and realism of the time?

So yeah, I'm calling out all you bandwagon peeps to put your money where your mouth is and give some evidence that the following ever occurred in 1942. If not, do us all a favor and keep your WitEKA mouths shut until you do.

So from the game we have basically:

German PZ Div
- high 90's for exp on all components (ELITE)
- moral of 89
- TOE almost 80%
- fatigue <= 10%
- top notch leadership values (from what was posted)
- 12k men
- 20 exp fighters BF 109


v.s.

Sov 42 Rifle Div
- moral med-low(s.b. in 50s?)
- exp med-low (30s 40s? - if these sov rifle div have high exp in 42.. that's a another issue)
- fatigue low-med?
- leadership low-avg?
- 8.6k men
- 10 fighter Hurican II, 20 IL-2 bombers (exp low? in 1942?)

battlefield: open terrain, clear spring skies, defending sov unit has 0 fort lvl


So this outcome of axis loses 646 men, 18arty, 8 afvs to the sov loses of 521 men and 7 arty seems ok? Oh and BTW the sov had a very skilled rereat too as they didn't suffer more than 500 lose?
At least the air ware seemed to be model correct... 0 axis loses and 5 fighter and 5 sov bomber loses.

Ok, I've been reading a few of the following books lately that have been describing how the German Pz Div were almost 'super-human' in dealing with some of the most incredible tasks of defending an attacking.

To the Gates of Stalingrad: Soviet-German Combat Operations, April-August 1942: David Glantz
The 6th Panzer Division 1937-1945: Helmut Ritgen

These mobile units were called upon by the Germany army over and over again to be the 'fireman' and/or spearheads when needed.
In all the readings I've yet to see an example of a sov Rifle div accomplishing what happen in this fictional WitE battle given the circumstances. Here's a little blurb which I found about the Kharkov 2nd battle:

"Destruction of the Barvenkovo Salient

Both sides spent the 20th of May reorganizing their forces in and around the Barvenkovo salient. During the 20th, the 14th Panzer Division captured Protopopovka, which narrowed the neck of the pocket to only twelve miles.
On the 22nd, German forces began their attempt to seal the neck of the pocket. In the south the 14th and 16th Panzer Divisions attacked northwards from Protopopovka and Zagorodnoe toward Chepel and the 14th Panzer Division reached Bayrak, to the south of Balakleia. In the north, the redeployed elements of the 3rd and 23rd Panzer Divisions attacked southwards from Balakleia and Andreevka smashing through the 337th and 47th Rifle Divisions, forcing crossings of the Northern Donets River at Chervonyi Donets and Krasnaia Gusarovka."


In in almost all cases of the 42 battles, a sov rifle div caught in the open was cannon-fodder for a German Pz Div.

Oh, and most of these Pz Div later in the war that were still performing incredible feats were doing so very under strength in men and tanks.

We also have to keep in mind the tactics that these PZ leaders possessed that allowed them to win battles with minimal loses even against forces much larger than theirs. In this WitE battle example the 11th PZ has the larger force which makes the results even more disturbing.

Most of what I've seen is that Sov Rifle div out in the open/un-entrenched could never have pulled this feat off as described by abulbulian.

So let's see some meaningful comments about what is and is NOT possible.

Also, if one lone sov rilfe div out in the open is able to do this to an elite Pz unit.. wow. The sov player has these rifle div to burn. I think the results of this battle reflect some serious issues that only an expert player vs a moron sov player could ever hope to overcome.

That's my opinion. I don't plan to play the axis anytime soon. But I'll be happy to play the soviets in a PBEM with any of you haters.[:-]



paullus99 -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 5:17:30 PM)

Your example is one attack against one unit - if this happened again & again, then I would say it is a problem. But, this isn't going to happen every time.

Just as in war, sometimes you roll snake-eyes & the other side wins. There are plenty of instances of Panzer Divisions being stopped in their tracks as well. Of course, they performed some pretty amazing feats during the war, but they didn't win every battle they fought either.



kirkgregerson -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 5:24:10 PM)

Umm, please find me an example of this ever happening even once historically. Call me crazy but I don't think this was just a 1/1000 chance for a battle outcome. My guess is you fight this battle 100 times you get this type of result 25 times or more? Just a guess. Either way it's so wrong I don't see how anybody other than a 'Stalin's boy' (if it fits...) could be ok with these type of results so early in the war and given the circumstances.

Don't have to read too many books on the eastern front battles to know that a sov rifle div in the open and not entrench would have been utterly destroyed by a PZ Div. Being in the open this sov rifle div is now on the 'home filed' advantage of a Pz Div. [:'(]

This is spring 42... so how much exp do people this that unit had? How much moral? How much %T OE? I say if it had good moral and exp in spr 42... we have a whole bag of other issues for WitE to deal with.



MengJiao -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 5:30:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

That's my opinion. I don't plan to play the axis anytime soon. But I'll be happy to play the soviets in a PBEM with any of you haters.[:-]



I'm not playing Axis until there is a support group that I can call and they can tell me, "it's okay to loose World War II sometimes." I MEAN A LIVE, REAL
AXIS PLAYER ON THE PHONE, not just some elite recording of an elite panzer civilization telling me it's OKAY. I'm tired of that. the word panzer doesn't
work for me any more. I see "panzer" and I think "tank"...I've tried it all morning. I said "panzer" at least 200 times AND NOTHING HAPPENED AT ALL.

Something is terribly wrong.



MengJiao -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 5:31:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

Umm, please find me an example of this ever happening even once historically. Call me crazy but I don't think this was just a 1/1000 chance for a battle outcome. My guess is you fight this battle 100 times you get this type of result 25 times or more? Just a guess. Either way it's so wrong I don't see how anybody other than a 'Stalin's boy' (if it fits...) could be ok with these type of results so early in the war and given the circumstances.

Don't have to read too many books on the eastern front battles to know that a sov rifle div in the open and not entrench would have been utterly destroyed by a PZ Div. Being in the open this sov rifle div is now on the 'home filed' advantage of a Pz Div. [:'(]

This is spring 42... so how much exp do people this that unit had? How much moral? How much %T OE? I say if it had good moral and exp in spr 42... we have a whole bag of other issues for WitE to deal with.



Yoyu don't think there were any cases where a hasty attack failed to locate the division properly and ran into air and artillery before the division retreated?



MechFO -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 5:34:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

Would IL-2's have that effect? Let's face it, he had fighters covering his division and therefore had a decent CAP (shooting down roughly a sixth of the attacking planes). Doesn't the soviet air attack get disrupted?


Tac Air is IMO over the top against attacking units:

old threads

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2652181&mpage=1&key=

and

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2647088&mpage=1&key=

but they they are too few in this case.



kirkgregerson -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 5:39:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MengJiao


quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

That's my opinion. I don't plan to play the axis anytime soon. But I'll be happy to play the soviets in a PBEM with any of you haters.[:-]



I'm not playing Axis until there is a support group that I can call and they can tell me, "it's okay to loose World War II sometimes." I MEAN A LIVE, REAL
AXIS PLAYER ON THE PHONE, not just some elite recording of an elite panzer civilization telling me it's OKAY. I'm tired of that. the word panzer doesn't
work for me any more. I see "panzer" and I think "tank"...I've tried it all morning. I said "panzer" at least 200 times AND NOTHING HAPPENED AT ALL.

Something is terribly wrong.



Are you that dense you don't understand the concepts that are being discussed. You really have some nerved posting something this stupid. Some players and even Maxrix reps have told you to stick to the thread and not go off topic with garbage and personal bs. You're bring up some crap about winning and losing? Really? WTF does that have to do with anything that was mentioned on this thread? IMO, I find your comments nonsense and you're exactly what this forum does not need.

Don't you have anything intelligent to say?



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 5:40:40 PM)

kirkgregerson, I still can't see that Sparta Kick. So what? Any problem with that? [8D]




kirkgregerson -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 5:41:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MengJiao


quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

Umm, please find me an example of this ever happening even once historically. Call me crazy but I don't think this was just a 1/1000 chance for a battle outcome. My guess is you fight this battle 100 times you get this type of result 25 times or more? Just a guess. Either way it's so wrong I don't see how anybody other than a 'Stalin's boy' (if it fits...) could be ok with these type of results so early in the war and given the circumstances.

Don't have to read too many books on the eastern front battles to know that a sov rifle div in the open and not entrench would have been utterly destroyed by a PZ Div. Being in the open this sov rifle div is now on the 'home filed' advantage of a Pz Div. [:'(]

This is spring 42... so how much exp do people this that unit had? How much moral? How much %T OE? I say if it had good moral and exp in spr 42... we have a whole bag of other issues for WitE to deal with.



Yoyu don't think there were any cases where a hasty attack failed to locate the division properly and ran into air and artillery before the division retreated?



Lol, oh it was a hasty attack.. excuse me. You don't think these operations by the pz div were not in most circumstances hasty type attacks? They were running around from point to point dealing with many difficult situations. Do us all a favor and pick up a book or two on the battles on the eastern front. Maybe you'll have something intelligent to say? Where is some documentation to prove this out come could have ever occurred?

WHERE.... Nothing? That's what I thought. You can make stupid little comments or bring something to the table.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 5:42:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson
I guess I should not be surprise at the low-IQ type responses on this thread, people like Oleg Mastruko have never had anything useful to say from day 1.


In your opinion, only those who criticise (and preferably from an Axis Fanboy standpoint) have something "useful" to say. I am on the forum mostly to have fun and learn something form more experienced players. If I hadn't say "anything useful" that's because - SHOCK HORROR DISBELIEF - I think game actually works great.

There can be some improvements, of course, but threads like these I find pointless and overly dramatic to the point of hilarity, so I jump in to have fun. What else is there to be had with a thread like this? It can either be deleted by mods (which is what I would do on my board) or turned into "This is Sparta!"

What amazes me is that pompous guys like you flatter themselves by calling their walls of text "useful". You call your hateful, insulting post "useful"? As opposed to what? To the rest of us who actually enjoy the game as it is, and find this whole thread funny?

quote:

So here's where I'm going to make you look the fools you are.


Oh that hurts [>:] Some dude on the Internet called me a fool for thinking this thread is hilarious.

quote:

Oleg, you can skip this part as you've already establish that your mental challenges prevent you from any sort of reasonable thought process.


Thanks, I would have probably skipped it anyway, but it's good to do so with an official permission. Thank you so much.




Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 5:43:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson
Are you that dense you don't understand the concepts that are being discussed. You really have some nerved posting something this stupid are not only players BUT Maxrix reps have told you to stick to the thread. You're bring up some crap about winning and losing? WTF does that have to do with anything that was mentioned on this thread? IMO, I find your comments nonsense and you're exactly what this forum does not need.


Yep, we need more people like you [:D][sm=00000734.gif]



MengJiao -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 5:43:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: MengJiao


quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

That's my opinion. I don't plan to play the axis anytime soon. But I'll be happy to play the soviets in a PBEM with any of you haters.[:-]



I'm not playing Axis until there is a support group that I can call and they can tell me, "it's okay to loose World War II sometimes." I MEAN A LIVE, REAL
AXIS PLAYER ON THE PHONE, not just some elite recording of an elite panzer civilization telling me it's OKAY. I'm tired of that. the word panzer doesn't
work for me any more. I see "panzer" and I think "tank"...I've tried it all morning. I said "panzer" at least 200 times AND NOTHING HAPPENED AT ALL.

Something is terribly wrong.



Are you that dense you don't understand the concepts that are being discussed. You really have some nerved posting something this stupid are not only players BUT Maxrix reps have told you to stick to the thread. You're bring up some crap about winning and losing? WTF does that have to do with anything that was mentioned on this thread? IMO, I find your comments nonsense and you're exactly what this forum does not need.

Don't you have anything intelligent to say?



Thanks. I'm feeling better already. So, why aren't you playing Axis these days?



Flaviusx -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 5:44:36 PM)

Guys, the ad hominem stuff isn't really very constructive. Chill.




TulliusDetritus -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 5:46:48 PM)

What I find amazing is to see grown-up people fighting over a GAME. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, this is ONLY a bloody GAME (pure entertainment). And as far as I know you are not supposed to be my 7 year-old niece [8D]

I can't believe it. Amazing [8|]

Wanna fight over something serious, something really worthy? Bring Miss Universe and there will be blood on the floor in no time.

FOR SPARTA! [sm=00000055.gif]



kirkgregerson -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 5:47:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson
Are you that dense you don't understand the concepts that are being discussed. You really have some nerved posting something this stupid are not only players BUT Maxrix reps have told you to stick to the thread. You're bring up some crap about winning and losing? WTF does that have to do with anything that was mentioned on this thread? IMO, I find your comments nonsense and you're exactly what this forum does not need.


Yep, we need more people like you [:D][sm=00000734.gif]



And IMO this world could use less people like you. Once again you're displaying to all that you have nothing meaningful to add but yet another thread you troll. Where's some evidence that GIVE YOU THE right to criticize abulbulian's issues with the battle outcome that was posted?

<crickets>

That's what I thought... so go ahead and act like a fool and post more meaningless crap. I'm just going to start ignoring your comments as others have pm'd me to do about you in general. Oh yeah, you're not well liked.. go figure.



MengJiao -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 5:48:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: MengJiao


quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

Umm, please find me an example of this ever happening even once historically. Call me crazy but I don't think this was just a 1/1000 chance for a battle outcome. My guess is you fight this battle 100 times you get this type of result 25 times or more? Just a guess. Either way it's so wrong I don't see how anybody other than a 'Stalin's boy' (if it fits...) could be ok with these type of results so early in the war and given the circumstances.

Don't have to read too many books on the eastern front battles to know that a sov rifle div in the open and not entrench would have been utterly destroyed by a PZ Div. Being in the open this sov rifle div is now on the 'home filed' advantage of a Pz Div. [:'(]

This is spring 42... so how much exp do people this that unit had? How much moral? How much %T OE? I say if it had good moral and exp in spr 42... we have a whole bag of other issues for WitE to deal with.



Yoyu don't think there were any cases where a hasty attack failed to locate the division properly and ran into air and artillery before the division retreated?



Lol, oh it was a hasty attack.. excuse me. You don't think these operations by the pz div were not in most circumstances hasty type attacks? They were running around from point to point dealing with many difficult situations. Do us all a favor and pick up a book or two on the battles on the eastern front. Maybe you'll have something intelligent to say? Where is some documentation to prove this out come could have ever occurred?

WHERE.... Nothing? That's what I thought. You can make stupid little comments or bring something to the table.


Why do you just say pz? An elite Panzer Division should be referred to as an elite Panzer Division.

Do you think the elite PANZER DIVISIONS had time in their busy elite days running all over the place to write down a complete accoun of every time they got hit by artillery and airstrikes and heard there were some russian infantry retreating somewhere near by?



MengJiao -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/26/2011 5:49:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson
Are you that dense you don't understand the concepts that are being discussed. You really have some nerved posting something this stupid are not only players BUT Maxrix reps have told you to stick to the thread. You're bring up some crap about winning and losing? WTF does that have to do with anything that was mentioned on this thread? IMO, I find your comments nonsense and you're exactly what this forum does not need.


Yep, we need more people like you [:D][sm=00000734.gif]



And IMO this world could use less people like you. Once again you're displaying to all that you have nothing meaningful to add but yet another thread you troll. Where's some evidence that GIVE YOU THE right to criticize abulbulian's issues with the battle outcome that was posted?

<crickets>

That's what I thought... so go ahead and act like a fool and post more meaningless crap. I'm just going to start ignoring your comments as others have pm'd me to do about you in general. Oh yeah, you're not well liked.. go figure.




Somebody PM-ed me that you had some problems.




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