RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (Full Version)

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Zovs -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/27/2011 6:36:46 PM)

quote:

sunning themselves while drinking alcoholic spirits and not taking baths


1. Sunning your self naked toughens your skin so that anything smaller then a 15mm will not penetrate your body
2. Drinking Vodka (or my favorite Scotch) increases your morale and endurance if drunk properly
3. Not taking baths ensures that you will then become waterproofed, as the natural oils in your body will help repel rain and snow

I try follow these concepts to ensure long health and happiness, my wife objects to item number 3 every few days and she won't let me do item number 1 in public anymore.

[;)]



MengJiao -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/27/2011 6:43:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

quote:

sunning themselves while drinking alcoholic spirits and not taking baths


1. Sunning your self naked toughens your skin so that anything smaller then a 15mm will not penetrate your body
2. Drinking Vodka (or my favorite Scotch) increases your morale and endurance if drunk properly
3. Not taking baths ensures that you will then become waterproofed, as the natural oils in your body will help repel rain and snow

I try follow these concepts to ensure long health and happiness, my wife objects to item number 3 every few days and she won't let me do item number 1 in public anymore.

[;)]



On the other hand the inceassant zoological noises can deafen even the most hardened drunk.



kirkgregerson -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/27/2011 6:51:40 PM)

quote:

I agree with the fact that Soviet air and support artillery units alone could be accounted for the majority of the losses the German force suffered. Therefore the "crack Panzerdivision vs. puny Rifle Division" argument is a moot point.


Well if 20 German Me 109 vs 10 Hurricans and 20 Il-2 can give the Sov some sort of incredible air superiority and air attack strength in 1942.. what happens in later when sov are flying 50 or more of Il-2s?

I have to laugh how many of you have twisted and morph'd this post into some other than what it was questioning. That's fine you want to goof on other people's legitimate concerns that's on you. I've still yet to see any proof in the context of the east front that this battle outcome could have occurred. So I guess since nobody can produce it, they just dance around and make fun of the thread starter like a bunch of immature children.

If the results are because this was a hasty attack according to Joel, that's good to know. I think that reduces the effectiveness of the German Panzer forces as historically they did act as fire brigades w/good success and were making 'hasty' type attacks in most situations after Case Blau.

If I need to be concerned about doing a hasty attacks with a well rested, elite Pz Div in WitE in 42 against a sov inf div in the open w/o entrenchment then I guess knowledge is power.

[;)]



Vaxman -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/27/2011 6:56:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

+1 for dumping detailed combat results to a log file to review later. Then you wouldn't have to run the battle super slow and high detail but if you get a weird result. You could immediately look into the combat log and see whats happened.



+1 from me also!



XAAL. -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/27/2011 7:17:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson
If I need to be concerned about doing a hasty attacks with a well rested, elite Pz Div in WitE in 42 against a sov inf div in the open w/o entrenchment then I guess knowledge is power.
[;)]


All this does not make them bullet-proof against 203mm shells....Those heavy guns found their target, nothing extraordinary.
And afaik those Me109 were not equipped with radars able to track every plane flying every hour of the day. Those IL-2 could very well reach their target before being detected or intercepted.

Finally, the soviet inf division retreated and that Pz division sustained few losses, so I still dont get where the problem lies.

+1 for a more detailed combat report that could differentiate kills/diabled/disrupted.
+1 for dumping detailed combat results to a log file to review later.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/27/2011 7:23:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: XAAL.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson
If I need to be concerned about doing a hasty attacks with a well rested, elite Pz Div in WitE in 42 against a sov inf div in the open w/o entrenchment then I guess knowledge is power.
[;)]


All this does not make them bullet-proof against 203mm shells....Those heavy guns found their target, nothing extraordinary.
And afaik those Me109 were not equipped with radars able to track every plane flying every hour of the day. Those IL-2 could very well reach their target before being detected or intercepted.

Finally, the soviet inf division retreated and that Pz division sustained few losses, so I still dont get where the problem lies.

+1 for a more detailed combat report that could differentiate kills/diabled/disrupted.
+1 for dumping detailed combat results to a log file to review later.


Psst mate, don't resurrect this thing or... [sm=00000613.gif]



kirkgregerson -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/27/2011 7:24:28 PM)

quote:

Finally, the soviet inf division retreated and that Pz division sustained few losses, so I still dont get where the problem lies.


I'm not sure 650 out of 12k is really few loses (5.4%) considering these are almost irreplaceable at that exp level. The problem is the sov player has rifle div coming out his ass and took about 500 loses. So if by throwing out a rifle div can 'at times' cause this many loses to the cream of the German Army.. can you see what the problem is now?

Sov can win this attrition war even faster in a manner that is IMO not realistic.

If that rifle div was in some better defensible terrain or maybe had some entrenchment.. then I guess I can see the loses mounting for the hasty attacking Pz Div. I guess others think this is fine. For me I'm not going to argue it anymore.. like I said.. now I know. My next games of WitE PBEM will be as sov then I can avoid all this nonsense and kick some axis butt ....

[:D]



MechFO -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/27/2011 8:22:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm


quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO
The problem for me is mainly that the relative losses and the combat result don't add up. RETREAT is defined in the manual as a forced displacement, I checked to be sure, and that definition is repeated ad nauseam. So this wasn't a delaying action (which is it's own discussion).

This was by any measure a highly successful defensive action, so it should be a HOLD.

If it really was a RETREAT, then German losses can still be rationalised, but Russian losses are way too low.


It seems to me like you are wrapped up in semantics, I don't think that the distinctions that you are making between a "HOLD", a "delaying action" and a "retreat" are necessarily valid.

The Sovs retreated, so I don't see why it should be a HOLD? And why couldn't a successful delaying action be shown in the game as a retreat? Delaying actions generally do involve moving backwards under enemy pressure, not staying in place.

Finally, I don't understand why everyone considers these Sov losses so unbelievably low. As stated in a previous post, these turns are a week long...how do we know that the Russians did not retreat at night, or in the fog? As far as I know, clear weather for a weekly turn does not mean sunshine 24/7...



Well, everything is ultimately a matter of opinion but,

the semantics matter because HOLD, RETREAT and delaying action implicate very different outcomes at the tactical level. This in turn determines what reasonable loss results can be expected. Unless one knows what the results are actually meant to represent, loss mechanics remain a black box which IMO they should not be.

A delaying action being represented by RETREAT doesn't make sense in terms of the game mechanics. There is no way to tell a unit that you would rather trade lower losses for real estate, or vice versa, and this is a critical distinction. Also there is no disengagement penalty during the movement phase. So IMO, and based on the manual, a delaying action is represented by a unit surviving an attack during the enemy phase, and then moving during one owns phase without penalty.

This is important because any foot unit can NOT be expected to perform a successful delaying action against a motorized unit capable and in the process of further attacks.



2ndACR -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/27/2011 8:31:43 PM)

Bull crud......I was a 11b (infantry) before I went Cav. I know dang well an infantry (leg) can do a delaying action on a mechanized unit. In any kind of country. Any country  is better than clear, but I know it can be done. We practiced it, without armor, brad, and even without our guided anti tank. Just AT4 and small arms. It can be done.

Is it expected.......NO, not expected, but can be done.

This all boils down to using 1941 expectations and results versus a 1942 Russian. You have to change and expect the enemy to get better as it goes.



morganbj -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/27/2011 8:46:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Bull crud......I was a 11b (infantry) before I went Cav. I know dang well an infantry (leg) can do a delaying action on a mechanized unit. In any kind of country. Any country  is better than clear, but I know it can be done. We practiced it, without armor, brad, and even without our guided anti tank. Just AT4 and small arms. It can be done.

Is it expected.......NO, not expected, but can be done.

This all boils down to using 1941 expectations and results versus a 1942 Russian. You have to change and expect the enemy to get better as it goes.


Maybe for a short period of time. But the game scale is a week. No leg infantry without AT can successfully delay for a week against a combined arms team, with substantial tanks, as the 101st Airlanding learned when they developed their then new AT doctrine in 1975. We went through them like crap through a goose when it was tested in the piney woods of the Florida panhandle. My tank company alone overran two full airborne battalions, and the controlers had to pause the war when I got to less than a mile from the 101st TOC. We started at daylight and it was not yet noon. They then had four hours to redeploy to make another go of it. Nevermind, we overran another BN by dark. Three days later, and two days before it was suppsed to end

Sure it wasn't real, but it was a close as can be done without real bullets. The commander of the 101st even admitted that "they had more work to do" with their doctrine. No s***.



Great_Ajax -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/27/2011 8:57:14 PM)

Since a panzer division can do a half dozen hasty attacks in a turn (week), I would see this is a day or two long battle at best.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Bull crud......I was a 11b (infantry) before I went Cav. I know dang well an infantry (leg) can do a delaying action on a mechanized unit. In any kind of country. Any country  is better than clear, but I know it can be done. We practiced it, without armor, brad, and even without our guided anti tank. Just AT4 and small arms. It can be done.

Is it expected.......NO, not expected, but can be done.

This all boils down to using 1941 expectations and results versus a 1942 Russian. You have to change and expect the enemy to get better as it goes.


Maybe for a short period of time. But the game scale is a week. No leg infantry without AT can successfully delay for a week against a combined arms team, with substantial tanks, as the 101st Airlanding learned when they developed their then new AT doctrine in 1975. We went through them like crap through a goose when it was tested in the piney woods of the Florida panhandle. My tank company alone overran two full airborne battalions, and the controlers had to pause the war when I got to less than a mile from the 101st TOC. We started at daylight and it was not yet noon. They then had four hours to redeploy to make another go of it. Nevermind, we overran another BN by dark. Three days later, and two days before it was suppsed to end

Sure it wasn't real, but it was a close as can be done without real bullets. The commander of the 101st even admitted that "they had more work to do" with their doctrine. No s***.





2ndACR -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/27/2011 9:01:16 PM)

No problem. Won't work every time. I am just trying to point out that it CAN happen in real life.

For all we know the hasty attack did not start until day 6-7 of the week. Sunday the Russian unit is spotted, the recon sits in a REMF inbox until Tuesday when it is finally sent to Army and down the chain of command. Movement starts on Wednesday night, hasty on Thursday, which for some reason has issues. Not enough fuel made it front, the combat trains took that left instead of right and is now in the div next to you rear area. On Friday, you are ready to go again only to find the enemy has pulled back 10 miles. Plausible and could happen. Maybe it did. I know danged well it could and does happen all the time even today. I remember moving road signs around in Germany and mixing units up like no tomorrow.

I would love to have 1 day turns. But as a WITP guy, it would not be horrible, but prefer the longer turn time.



MechFO -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/27/2011 9:11:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Bull crud......I was a 11b (infantry) before I went Cav. I know dang well an infantry (leg) can do a delaying action on a mechanized unit. In any kind of country. Any country  is better than clear, but I know it can be done. We practiced it, without armor, brad, and even without our guided anti tank. Just AT4 and small arms. It can be done.

Is it expected.......NO, not expected, but can be done.

This all boils down to using 1941 expectations and results versus a 1942 Russian. You have to change and expect the enemy to get better as it goes.



Well, none of the exercises I ever participated in went that way and that in much better defensive terrain. Stop the lead company or even battalion temporarily, sure. But we are looking at an action lasting 1/2 day to a day. Either way, after the initial attack, the foot infantry is for all intents and purposes then fixed in place. Move, and one risks being caught in the open, and moving at marching speed it takes a looong time to cover any ground.

The best case delaying action in these terms means leaving sacrificial rearguards and hoping they can hold out long enough for the rest to get away, except that getting "away" is at 5km /hour. With open terrain one cant expect any help from the terrain for channelling purposes which makes flanking the rearguard a fairly high probability.

Motorized infantry is another kettle of fish, but even they have problems unless they can break LOS and have a covered route for retreat.



MechFO -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/27/2011 9:21:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

No problem. Won't work every time. I am just trying to point out that it CAN happen in real life.

For all we know the hasty attack did not start until day 6-7 of the week. Sunday the Russian unit is spotted, the recon sits in a REMF inbox until Tuesday when it is finally sent to Army and down the chain of command. Movement starts on Wednesday night, hasty on Thursday, which for some reason has issues. Not enough fuel made it front, the combat trains took that left instead of right and is now in the div next to you rear area. On Friday, you are ready to go again only to find the enemy has pulled back 10 miles. Plausible and could happen. Maybe it did. I know danged well it could and does happen all the time even today. I remember moving road signs around in Germany and mixing units up like no tomorrow.

I would love to have 1 day turns. But as a WITP guy, it would not be horrible, but prefer the longer turn time.



Sure.

For me that represents running out of MP's and explains why moving without disengagement penalties is possible in the players turn.

I would be for 1/2 day day - night turns, with the option to export combats into Steel Panthers and then reimport loss/readiness stats.

There can never be too much micro.[:'(]



2ndACR -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/27/2011 9:22:46 PM)

The above is how I justify some of the combat results that sometimes happen. Just one of those things. No biggie.



amatteucci -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/27/2011 10:29:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson
Well if 20 German Me 109 vs 10 Hurricans and 20 Il-2 can give the Sov some sort of incredible air superiority and air attack strength in 1942.. what happens in later when sov are flying 50 or more of Il-2s?

What "incredible" air superiority strenght are you talking about? Judging from the losses, it may be that the German Bf 109F fighters managed to intercept only the Hurricanes (that were, indeed, mauled) and the Shturmoviki went ahead undisturbed (but got serious losses from the FlaK).
Anyway, to answer your question about what can be expected later in the war, I'd like to quote the report received by General Rodin, commander of the 2nd Tank Army, about the results of 299 ShAD attacks on 6 July 1944: the Shturmovik attacks had set fire to 14 German tanks and put another 40 out of commission, for the loss of a single Il-2.
The day after another attack by 18 Il-2s from 291 ShAD left twenty tanks from 3. Panzerdivision burning on the road.
Even allowing for overclaiming, one get the impression that the Shturmoviki were effective against German ground units. To quote the words of Christer Bergström, renowed expert of Eastern Front air warfare: "Although the Soviet claims for destroyed tanks and aircraft were exaggerated, the massed Shturmovik attacks doubtlessly met with great success".

quote:


I have to laugh how many of you have twisted and morph'd this post into some other than what it was questioning. That's fine you want to goof on other people's legitimate concerns that's on you.

I myself am not goofing anything. I understand the original poster concerns. I have similar concerns too, and this is the reason that made me ask for a combat log option.

quote:


I've still yet to see any proof in the context of the east front that this battle outcome could have occurred. So I guess since nobody can produce it, they just dance around and make fun of the thread starter like a bunch of immature children.

Well, it's he who makes a claim has the onus of the proof.
So it's up to the OP to bring evidence of a game engine problem. As long as we have no evidence of German Panzer units routinely failing to dislodge unentrenched Rifle Divisions, I think it's premature to claim that the game is broken.
For example, it happened that I-16 fighters were able to down superior German Bf 109s. It also happened that a single T-34-85 was able to knock down three (three!) King Tigers in a row. So, strange things can (and did) happen on the Eastern Front. Thus, I would allow for some unexpected results in the game, as long as the unexpected doesn't become common...




amatteucci -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/27/2011 10:35:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Since a panzer division can do a half dozen hasty attacks in a turn (week), I would see this is a day or two long battle at best.

Exactly.

Not to speak of the fact that the a "clear" hex in WitE isn't exactly intended to be a billiard table. It's simply a zone that has no hills, big cities or large forests. But this doesn't mean that there cannot be trees, farms, ditches, orchards etc. etc.



Aurelian -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/27/2011 11:07:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: amatteucci

Well, it's he who makes a claim has the onus of the proof.
So it's up to the OP to bring evidence of a game engine problem. As long as we have no evidence of German Panzer units routinely failing to dislodge unentrenched Rifle Divisions, I think it's premature to claim that the game is broken.



Ahh, there's the rub. The OP *did* dislodge the Rifle Div :)



ComradeP -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/27/2011 11:24:16 PM)

quote:

Since a panzer division can do a half dozen hasty attacks in a turn (week), I would see this is a day or two long battle at best.


...hasty attacks where we're currently likely to get, at best, a 2:1 or 3:1 casualty ratio no matter how many mobile forces are involved, with the Soviet losses usually being a few hundred. Considering that, in theory, CV should only be halved for hasty attacks, mobile units are significantly underperforming in general.



JAMiAM -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/27/2011 11:31:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

quote:

Since a panzer division can do a half dozen hasty attacks in a turn (week), I would see this is a day or two long battle at best.


...hasty attacks where we're currently likely to get, at best, a 2:1 or 3:1 casualty ratio no matter how many mobile forces are involved, with the Soviet losses usually being a few hundred. Considering that, in theory, CV should only be halved for hasty attacks, mobile units are significantly underperforming in general.


I would not claim that. Neither would any of my opponents, I would hazard a guess...[:D]



ComradeP -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/28/2011 12:06:28 AM)

At this point, I can pretty much guarantee you that if you would play as the Axis, and I would play as the Soviets, your mobile units would really not be what you hoped they would be.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/28/2011 12:11:14 AM)

I would really like to see the game between you two Comrade Pieter and Jamiam.

James (Jamiam) is currently rolling over me as Axis. If there is a guy who can finally prove to Axis fanboys that their toys are quite powerful when used by the real expert, then it's James. Do an AAR [8D]



ComradeP -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/28/2011 12:15:57 AM)

If he wants to, I'd be perfectly happy to play a game against him. I'd be surprised if his mobile forces will be able to perform much better than mine are currently performing in my game with notenome, where their performance is rather mediocre due to the low casualties they're causing.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/28/2011 12:24:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

If he wants to, I'd be perfectly happy to play a game against him. I'd be surprised if his mobile forces will be able to perform much better than mine are currently performing in my game with notenome, where their performance is rather mediocre due to the low casualties they're causing.


Having glanced over your AAR with NN, James took far bigger swathes of the map vs me, and far sooner, than you did against NN. I can't comment on the casualties though. I do think you played too conservatively on some occasions (I merely glanced over the AAR). On turn 9 NN formed good lines vs you, I was simply never able to form anything resebling a line or even a checkerboard vs James.

Perhaps I am just that much worse player than NN? [:D] However I don't think so. I think you, and everybody who thinks Axis are handicapped in this game should play vs Jamiam then come back with a reassesment.



mmarquo -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/28/2011 12:35:02 AM)


[This thread is almost as entertaining as playing WITE [;)]
[/quote]

NO, that is not true [8D]

But almost [:D]
[/quote]

??? - you mean this thread is more entertaining than playing WITE [:)]



Great_Ajax -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/28/2011 12:43:00 AM)

In Comrade's defense, I am finding merit in his claims. I have played many PBEM games against Andy (Sabre21) over the past year and a half to where I felt I would classify myself as a good German player and Andy is one of the best Soviet players that I know. I haven't really played a PBEM game in several months and now with my game against Jamiam, I am finding that maneuvers that used to work aren't working out like they used to. It's like I am having to relearn the game mechanics all over again. I don't know if the changes that were made are for the better or worse but I do know that I am struggling and I'm not a new player.

Trey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

If he wants to, I'd be perfectly happy to play a game against him. I'd be surprised if his mobile forces will be able to perform much better than mine are currently performing in my game with notenome, where their performance is rather mediocre due to the low casualties they're causing.


Having glanced over your AAR with NN, James took far bigger swathes of the map vs me, and far sooner, than you did against NN. I can't comment on the casualties though. I do think you played too conservatively on some occasions (I merely glanced over the AAR). On turn 9 NN formed good lines vs you, I was simply never able to form anything resebling a line or even a checkerboard vs James.

Perhaps I am just that much worse player than NN? [:D] However I don't think so. I think you, and everybody who thinks Axis are handicapped in this game should play vs Jamiam then come back with a reassesment.




JAMiAM -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/28/2011 12:56:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

If he wants to, I'd be perfectly happy to play a game against him. I'd be surprised if his mobile forces will be able to perform much better than mine are currently performing in my game with notenome, where their performance is rather mediocre due to the low casualties they're causing.

Hi Pieter,

Go ahead and set us up a game in the server. FoW/Movement FoW and random weather, please. PM me with the password, and with any questions, comments or concerns. I have a few active games going, so an average turn rate of every other day is probably the best I could manage at this stage. I hear that you're a stronger Soviet player than you are an Axis player, so it should be a good matchup.

Best regards,
James



tiger111 -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/28/2011 1:02:55 AM)

In the words of your illustrious ex-Defence Secretary " Stuff happens ". [:D]



JAMiAM -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/28/2011 1:05:13 AM)

In the meantime, to further fuel the flames of debate, I call this screenshot "Counterattack: Revenge of the Untermenschen!"

German Panzer Korps bounced back into Rumania by hordes of Russians advancing to the rear...[:D]

Sorry Trey...couldn't resist...[;)]

[image]local://upfiles/10882/ABBC8642B5294D3D929E9AD78EF8B803.jpg[/image]



raizer -> RE: Utter madness... if you didn't believe something was wrong before (1/28/2011 1:10:27 AM)

1228 arty-holy cow



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