Hammer and sickle (Full Version)

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Horst Wessell -> Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 1:50:25 AM)

I see that Moscow has the hammer and sickle, but Berlin has the black cross instead of the swastika. I'm sure the hammer and sickle would have been offensive to someone from a gulag. Maybe even from a german POW. Maybe someone from east germany. Was the swatika kept out for financial reasons? I know with the political correctness today, not wanting to hurt someone's feelings. But with so much effort to make the game historical, was it left out for financial reason's or political correctness, or political pressure? When in the 60's I was involved in a game for Avalon Hill called Origins, we left the swastica in because that is what represented Germany. I would especially like to hear from Joel, I think we started board gaming about the same time.



heliodorus04 -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 2:00:00 AM)

Swastikas are ROUTINELY kept out of games with international distribution.
They are illegal in Germany. Period.
Any other stupid complaints?



2ndACR -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 2:05:47 AM)

Easy, the tone is not needed to explain why it is not there.

But yes, the swastica was left out due to legal issues in some countries. It was asked and answered a long time ago.

I also think it was said that if you wanted to make a mod, you could, Matrix and 2by3 cannot be held liable for a mod.



Ketza -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 2:06:24 AM)

[sm=fighting0056.gif]



2ndACR -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 2:20:45 AM)

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2642120

Here is a mod and an answer from Erik from Matrix Games.



Horst Wessell -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 3:04:19 AM)

So much hate on this site. Never mind, I don't need this. It is a great game, I am new to this site. I won't return.



2ndACR -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 3:12:14 AM)

Sorry you feel this way. I apologize for the harsh tone above. 



V22 Osprey -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 3:21:33 AM)

Please excuse Heliodorus, Mr. Wessell. Not all of us are like that.

Heliodorus, are you having a bad day? Not sure why you think it would be common knowledge for an American to know about GERMAN laws? A country an entire ocean away?



Aurelian -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 3:28:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

Please excuse Heliodorus, Mr. Wessell. Not all of us are like that.

Heliodorus, are you having a bad day? Not sure why you think it would be common knowledge for an American to know about GERMAN laws? A country an entire ocean away?


Really.

Way back when, I didn't know. Or had a reason to know either. That was back in the day when the Avalon Hill was the only game in town.



heliodorus04 -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 3:31:51 AM)

I stand by my description of the complaint as stupid.
You're talking about the most comprehensive Eastern Front wargame ever released on computer (and arguably ever) and you're going to debase that work with a complaint that the Swastika is not included.
Moreover, you impugn the courage of the designers and publishers of the game with allusions that they did not have the fortitude to 'hurt someone's feelings'.
And on top of that, you then impugn the designers and publishers' integrity in stating that because they use the Hammer & Sickle, they thus are hypocrites.

Offensive.
Stupid.
Thus, my 'tone.'

I make no apology.

Helio, out!



Zebedee -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 7:55:43 AM)

Interesting choice of user name.



KenchiSulla -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 8:49:57 AM)

Thats what I was looking at as well, Zebedee. Why would Horst Wessel want a Swastika in a computer game. [:-]



sillyflower -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 9:34:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

I stand by my description of the complaint as stupid.


Never confuse lack of knowledge with lack of intelligence.

Bad manners should also not be confused with either, but they never reflect well on the person with them.



sillyflower -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 10:03:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Thats what I was looking at as well, Zebedee. Why would Horst Wessel want a Swastika in a computer game. [:-]


Don't forget Horst Wessel was a communist irl who died is street battles against fascism. Goebbels just took over the song about him and turned his story on its head.
Our thread starter may just be a red under the bed but I am in no position to take a poke at those who choose silly names.



gradenko2k -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 10:18:59 AM)

quote:

So much hate on this site. Never mind, I don't need this. It is a great game, I am new to this site. I won't return.


I'm not necessarily saying that heliodorus' response was completely OK, but at the same time you're going to have to develop a much thicker skin than that if you're going to spend any amount of time on the internet.



KenchiSulla -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 10:47:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Thats what I was looking at as well, Zebedee. Why would Horst Wessel want a Swastika in a computer game. [:-]


Don't forget Horst Wessel was a communist irl who died is street battles against fascism. Goebbels just took over the song about him and turned his story on its head.
Our thread starter may just be a red under the bed but I am in no position to take a poke at those who choose silly names.


?. He wrote the lyrics, and he was not a communist.

I am usually not really biased about stuff like this. Fascists were not the only murderers of innocent people (especially during the 30s and 40s). I see a lot of people with "waffen SS" oriented avatars. I wouldnt do it myself but I can understand the fascination with a "sort of elite" German militairy organisation.... But having the login name of Horst Wessel (fascist marter) and starting a thread about "political correctness" of the hammer and sickle / swastika is asking for responses like this.....



Skanvak -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 11:07:33 AM)

Personnaly, I find the German law on the swastika (in historical game) and those who follow it to be shortsighted.This tell something false. Telling something false is negationnism. Then, it make every one believe that Stalin is better than Hitler? Gloups. and last but not least it does not show how criminal and inneficient the Nazi regime was (the final solution draw on rail transport and lower it for military operation). And of course using the actual german army symbol to represent nazi shoudl be insulting to german... (may be game designer can do as in Dragon ball and use just a cross :lol )

I am a strong believer that in correctly describing the nazi regime game does something pedagogic.



KenchiSulla -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 11:17:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

Personnaly, I find the German law on the swastika (in historical game) and those who follow it to be shortsighted.This tell something false. Telling something false is negationnism. Then, it make every one believe that Stalin is better than Hitler? Gloups. and last but not least it does not show how criminal and inneficient the Nazi regime was (the final solution draw on rail transport and lower it for military operation). And of course using the actual german army symbol to represent nazi shoudl be insulting to german... (may be game designer can do as in Dragon ball and use just a cross :lol )

I am a strong believer that in correctly describing the nazi regime game does something pedagogic.



Perhaps it is short sighted but you have to think about three things:

- When was the law implemented?
- How scarred are european countries to this day?
- Who would dare starting a discussion on withdrawing the law (what would your motivation be?)



Skanvak -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 11:55:40 AM)

Though I agree with the implied answer to the 2 first questions.

I think that the third question is obvious : to tell the true story to our children. Japanese are regularly pointed out because they don't tell the truth, the law prevent the truth to be told in historical game or historical reckonning) so it seems obvious to me that this is a sound basis to change it.

And in country where the law is not, I think we could attack the game designer for negationism.



KenchiSulla -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 12:44:06 PM)

Skanvak, if I read your answer you seem to connect the swastika to the truth. You can still tell the truth without showing possible offensive symbols in videogames... Or can't you?

Problem with swastika and in fact a lot of other Nazi symbols is that they are, till this day, being used by groups of people who do not appreciate the differences between human beings. In fact, they think the problems they are facing are being caused by certain groups of people. Does that ring a bell?

Symbols from Stalins Soviet Union, or Imperial Japan are perhaps used for the same purpose but seamingly to a far lesser extent...



Skanvak -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 12:57:59 PM)

Symbol of imperial Japan navy does not relate to an ideology so it is not offensive. Any way the swastika is not forbidden for being offensive but for being a political symbol of a forbidden political faction in Germany.

The only reason one is used and the other not is purely relate to who won the war and political strength. And I hate this german law that try to hide they were nazi. So yes, I believe that people will slowly began to forget that Germany was nazi during WWII and that they only fought a war for just cause from german point of view (That is what Guderian believe, he consider that it was normal for germany to annex Austria, sudete and poland and defend the fatherland against the rusian hordes. He was not a nazi.). Of course my knowledge of the history protect me from such but it does worry me.




KenchiSulla -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 1:09:16 PM)

Interesting point of view. I am not german so I am not sure how it is handled there. I wonder how history is presented in German classrooms?

It was a mandatory subject during my school carreer. For example, I remember when I was about 14 years old and we watched Schindler's list.

Fact is that history somehow is destined to repeat itself.. Mostly because people just dont know...or care. And that worries me as well.



Muzrub -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 1:19:16 PM)

Why is the Swastika not in the game in 2011- in the 1970's that particular question may have had some legs- but now, things have simply changed (for the better or not).

On the other hand the question is irrelevant considering the Mod communities that surround every game that is or ever has been released-

 Hort Wessel may well have asked is concentration camp labour modelled in the game?

Because that question is as pointless and personally not relevant to any game no matter how historical it claims to be!

Games at their core are supposed to be fun, not political footballs.
And after looking at this thread I think Horst Wessel has had his laugh stirring the pot...



Flaviusx -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 1:32:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

(That is what Guderian believe, he consider that it was normal for germany to annex Austria, sudete and poland and defend the fatherland against the rusian hordes. He was not a nazi.)



Or then again, maybe he was, for all practical purposes. I mean, he was totally cool with the conquering stuff, plainly, happily took his bribes in money and land from Hitler, and was willing enough to serve him on the front, as an inspector general, and as his chief of staff.

There are good examples of genuinely non nazi generals. (Leaving aside the obvious anti Hitler conspirators, you've also got fellows like, say, Heinrici.) Guderian isn't one of 'em. He was Hitler's man until the 11th hour.



Skanvak -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 1:44:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

(That is what Guderian believe, he consider that it was normal for germany to annex Austria, sudete and poland and defend the fatherland against the rusian hordes. He was not a nazi.)



Or then again, maybe he was, for all practical purposes. I mean, he was totally cool with the conquering stuff, plainly, happily took his bribes in money and land from Hitler, and was willing enough to serve him on the front, as an inspector general, and as his chief of staff.

There are good examples of genuinely non nazi generals. (Leaving aside the obvious anti Hitler conspirators, you've also got fellows like, say, Heinrici.) Guderian isn't one of 'em. He was Hitler's man until the 11th hour.


quote:

ly non nazi generals. (Leaving aside the obvious anti Hitler conspirators, you've also got fellows like, say, Heinrici.) Guderian isn't one of 'em. He was Hitler's man until the 11th hour.


Yes, and all the conspirator were in favor of the previous move made by Hitler or were outright nazi (Rommel). So I guess both points stand fast. As for Guderain he could have been Hitler's man while not sharing the nazi ideal because precisely, there was non-nazi related legitimate reasons to go to war for Germany.



Flaviusx -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 2:02:57 PM)

Many of the conspirators were in fact not in favor of Hitler's previous moves. Some of them had fallen out with the regime long before the war, such as Beck.

The most generous interpretation of Guderian I can come up with is that he was a technical enthusiast who allowed himself to be seduced by Hitler. But it was a seduction, not a rape. It is no accident this is the man Hitler turned to after the 1944 assassination attempt to become chief of staff; and Guderian agreed to institute the Nazi salute, sit on the kangaroo courts that prosecuted conspirators, allowed nazi leadership officers into the army, etc.

Only at the very end when the war was well and truly lost did he fall out with Hitler. We can admire Guderian's skill but it shouldn't blind us to the way he prostituted himself and his talent to the Nazis and became one of the regime's most favored generals.



micha1100 -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 2:25:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak
... I hate this german law that try to hide they were nazi. So yes, I believe that people will slowly began to forget that Germany was nazi during WWII and that they only fought a war for just cause from german point of view (That is what Guderian believe, he consider that it was normal for germany to annex Austria, sudete and poland and defend the fatherland against the rusian hordes. He was not a nazi.)...


I'm a German, and the laws against nazi symbols are most certainly not meant to try to hide facism. On the contrary, it's part of a fight against the possibility of any nazi-resurgence. There is a lot of awareness of Germany's guilt, actually probably even too much. It's often tedious for us born decades after the war to be told time and again how Germany and Germans are supposed to behave and what responsibilities we have because of the past. For example Germans are free to lie about every historical fact - with one exception: if you deny that Hitler-Germany killed Jews this counts as a crime.

As to Guderian - it was nothing special for Guderian to agree with Germany annexing Austria, the Sudetes and part of Poland. Austria has always been a German state, only inner-German conflicts prevented its inclusion into the new German Reich built by Bismarck in 1871. And the other provinces had been German or Austrian until 1918 when they were "stolen" after WWI.
And it's also nothing special for a soldier to make a decision to help his country in a war even if he does not agree with the current government.



Fänrik Stål -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 2:30:05 PM)

Why are the symbols needed at all? The political aspects play no part in the game so why do we need them on the map?



Fänrik Stål -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 2:50:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: micha1100


Austria has always been a German state, only inner-German conflicts prevented its inclusion into the new German Reich built by Bismarck in 1871.

Inner-German? In 1871 Austria-Hungary was an empire spanning huge areas of non-german lands. It would have had major international consequences.



wosung -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/5/2011 2:57:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

And I hate this german law that try to hide they were nazi.


This one of the most absurd things I've read so far on this forum.

Svastika ban is law in Germany because Allied Control Council for Germany in 1945 banned NSDAP and its symbols. In the Nuremberg trials NSDAP was declared a criminal organization. Federal German Republic took over Allied laws to the Liberation of the German People from Nationalsocialism and militarism" in article 139 of the Constitition. Based on this there are laws for punishing peace treason, high treason and harming democratic constitutional state ("Rechtsstaat"), (§§ 80–92b). § 86a deals with "the use of symbols of unconstitutional organizations", punishing this with a three year imprisonment or a fine. Explicitly excluded are cases of civic education, of defending against unconstitutional acts, of art, science, research, teaching, news coverage about current affairs or history or the like.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakenkreuz#Umgang_mit_Hakenkreuzdarstellungen_seit_1945
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

In Germany after a long phase of denying, 1960s leftist student revolt unveiling the "fathers vices", since some thirty years now "Vergangenheitsbewältigung" plays no minor part in public discourse. Disputes happen all the time, most recently frex about the role of German Foreign Ministry in the "Third Reich".

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak
So yes, I believe that people will slowly began to forget that Germany was nazi during WWII and that they only fought a war for just cause from german point of view (That is what Guderian believe, he consider that it was normal for germany to annex Austria, sudete and poland and defend the fatherland against the rusian hordes. He was not a nazi.). Of course my knowledge of the history protect me from such but it does worry me.


Guderian was a Technocrat who served the regime in an important position. Like other high commanders he was bribed with an estate in Western Poland. He was no member of the NSDAP. But given his position he sympathized with the aims of the Nazis.

Frankly I don't see any danger that Germany's responsibility for the WW2 and for the Shoa will be forgotten.



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