RE: Hammer and sickle (Full Version)

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molchomor -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/6/2011 3:42:30 AM)

As a whole range of games have had problems with German law already which has led to them not being possible to distribute to German customers, it is a correct design & business decision to "censor" this symbol at this time.

Computer games (as long as they can not be seen as some kind of propaganda vessel for extremism) will sometime in the future most likely fall under the "art" exempt (movies are already considered "art" so no problems with movies) of German law but right now this is not so it seems.

The article below discusses this in greater detail (guess you can put it in bablefish to translate it, but even if you display it in the original German you will for sure recognize the names of some famous games that have had problems due to swastikas being displayed).

http://www.rechtmedial.de/2010/03/25/viel-larm-um-silent-hunter-5/

Edit: Just FYI (fun facts), many countries during WW2 used swastikas, e.g. I believe it was the Finnish and Estonian (?) Airforce insignia. I.e. painted big on all of their planes. Even today the Finnish presidential flag contains a swastika. Don't think any of this is a problem for Germany of today though as those insignias do not represent any non-democratic organizations or views.



Navodchik -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/6/2011 9:06:28 AM)

Finnish presidential flag (in picture) used today has on upper left corner the Cross of liberty, which has a some kind of swastika included in it. However, the Order of the Cross of liberty was founded in 1918, so it has absolutely nothing to do with nazism. The Cross itself was designed by famous Finnish artist Akseli Gallen-Kallela after general Mannerheim's personal request. Curious trivia considering the artist is, that his son, leutenant Jorma Gallen-Kallela was first Finnish army officer KIA in WW2.

Our Air Forces, which are one of the oldest in the world used blue swastika since 1918. The reason why this kind of insignia was used was that the first plane (Thulin Typ. D) which our Air Forces ever had, was a gift from Swedish count Eric von Rosen, and he used the swastika as his personal good-luck charm. The blue swastika was also seen in some Finnish armoured vehicles during the wartime. Of course, after the WWII the Allied Control Comission made use of this insignia illegal, because it was easily associated with nazism.

[image]local://upfiles/37221/5C744B2052984AA984A7C2E38A75A628.jpg[/image]



Skanvak -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/6/2011 9:29:10 AM)

Molchomor,

Thanks for the information, I didn't know that there was such debate in Germany. Though I don't really contest the sentence "it is a correct design & business decision to "censor" this symbol at this time." as there is a mod. It is more the law for historical game that I contast and that most Game designer don't seem to challenge it.

Navodchik, very good information for the swastika. I did know that it was widely used in Japan to show temple emplacement but not for finnish so I get a look at the wiki there are a lot of use (chance charm, I wonder if the nazi have chosen the shamrock as symbol if we would have ban its represntation?).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

For the sake of the debate only, the iron cross used by the german army even today is as much offensive. I remind Giscard, former french president, to be very upset to see the bundeswehr tanks with the cross parading on the champs Elysée.



micha1100 -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/6/2011 2:42:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

For the sake of the debate only, the iron cross used by the german army even today is as much offensive.


I disagree. The Iron cross has been a symbol for Prussian and German armed forces for a very long time. There is no specific connection with fascism. It makes no sense to ban things just because it was in use during Hitler's reign. With that reasoning one could, for example, demand Christmas trees to be banned just because there were also used in Hitler-Germany.



Skanvak -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/6/2011 5:35:18 PM)

No it is not the same thing. The iron cross is the symbol of the army that occupied France and parade in Paris in 1940. I remind it myself to have felt uneasy when I fist saw a leopard II with it on. I felt like I was seeing a new panzer of a modern IIIrd Reich.



MengJiao -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/6/2011 5:53:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Horst Wessell

Moderater you need to lock this thread. There some very informed people here.



Yep. This sort of "Where's the Swastika?" thing should be in the basic playbook for trolls.

There's really no need to cover this topic at all, as Heliodorus pointed out.



micha1100 -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/6/2011 6:17:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

The iron cross is the symbol of the army that occupied France and parade in Paris in 1940.


So what? Of all things that happened in WWII and under Hitler, the war and victory against France belong to the most honourable feats of Germany. I sincerely doubt that it is customary for an army to change the symbols after having defeated an enemy that had declared the war himself.

Btw the Bundeswehr uses a different Black Cross than the Wehrmacht did. As I said, the Black Cross has nothing to do with fascism, it has been used for centuries. I'm certain Germany is not the only country whose army continues to use the old symbols even though they had also been used through bad times.



Skanvak -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/6/2011 6:23:04 PM)

Same goes for the swastika.



micha1100 -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/6/2011 6:53:46 PM)

Skanvak, you know that this is not true.



Rasputitsa -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/6/2011 7:03:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: micha1100

So what? Of all things that happened in WWII and under Hitler, the war and victory against France belong to the most honourable feats of Germany. I sincerely doubt that it is customary for an army to change the symbols after having defeated an enemy that had declared the war himself.



War was declared because of Germany's aggression against Czechoslovakia and Poland, the honourable feat of arms that you refer to included the unprovoked invasion of Luxembourg, Belgium and the Netherlands, which had been preceded by the 'honourable' invasions of Denmark and Norway.





micha1100 -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/6/2011 8:52:11 PM)

Rasputitsa, please don't misunderstand me, I'm absolutely not saying that Germany should be proud about the France campaign. But I do believe that what happened in France 1940 is no reason to ban Wehrmacht symbols. When I spoke of "honourable" I only meant that in comparison to all the other things that happened in the war and under Hitler's reign.



Reconvet -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/6/2011 11:24:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: micha1100

Rasputitsa, please don't misunderstand me, I'm absolutely not saying that Germany should be proud about the France campaign. But I do believe that what happened in France 1940 is no reason to ban Wehrmacht symbols. When I spoke of "honourable" I only meant that in comparison to all the other things that happened in the war and under Hitler's reign.


I am sure the French are still pissed at how their Army collapsed in 1940, but their continuing discomfort with Wehrmacht symbols definitly is also based on what happened during the occupation until '44. I'll just mention actions like randomly executing innocent civilians after partisan attacks and deportation of jews, for which not only SS units were responsible.

But I was happy to see you as a German reply to the anti-swastika laws, so I didn't jump in until now.

I'd just like to add a hint as to why H.W. song strikes nerves: it is sung by today's neo-nazis when they crawl out of their holes, for pure provocation because large parts of Europe had to listen to it being sung by german occupiers during the war.

One comment to nicknames as used by the thread opener: I definitly think that guys like him either know exactly that they provocate with stuff like that (and if they attempt to spread their ideological brain dystentery they have to be confronted and stopped right away), and/or they have no real idea what kind of attrocities were committed by the nazi war machine (imho symbols of Waffen SS in portraits of forum participants are scratching the limits of forum rules too...).

I just hope this thread is closed rather sooner than later. I'd hate to see this forum become a platform for political extremists....




goodwoodrw -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/6/2011 11:39:18 PM)

At the end of the day why deny history, it is almost 70 years in our past, but it happened. America doesn't ban CSA regalia, Australia doesn't ban the flag of the Southern Cross, all symbols of rebellion. The star and sickle, countless atrocities performed under that banner, the same can said about many other symbols of countries like India, Britain, China, Japan, Ireland etc etc etc. If these particular symbols are drawn and deface people property that's is the illegal act not the symbol. In the western so called democratic world it time governments get into the 21 st century and not linger on the past. This is not a political comment purely someone who likes total immersion in the war games I play. White stars on US trucks Italian symbols on Italian trucks the rising sun symbol on Japanese aeroplanes roundels on Australian aeroplanes red stars on Russian tanks and German symbols on German tanks. Some governments move into the 21s5 century. I the words of Forrest Gump, "that all I have to say about."



molchomor -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/6/2011 11:56:10 PM)

Regarding the "honorable" invasion of France and all that (is there something as an honorable war? Really?).

One would think that the Nazis got slammed hard for the previous attacks but in fact the attack on France is what actually did them in at Nuremberg (oh the irony!).

More fun facts freely from memory (I'm sure someone will check this anyway) :

Invasion of Czeckoslovakia: Nope, could not blame Germany here as Poland got a bit greedy too and took some territory when the chance presented itself.

Invasion of Poland: Nope, could not blame Germany here as the Soviets invaded Poland also and grabbed a huge chunk of it.

Invasion of Scandics: Nope, could not blame Germany here as the English invasion fleet bound for Norway actually set sail a couple of days before Germany launched its offensive.

Invasion of Lowlands etc. : Nope, could not blame Germany here as the French executed their plan and fell into these countries ASAP when Germany started pushing for France.

Invasion of France: Yep, clear case of aggression -> Conviction at Nuremberg. [X(]













Reconvet -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/7/2011 12:23:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BASB

At the end of the day why deny history, it is almost 70 years in our past, but it happened. America doesn't ban CSA regalia, Australia doesn't ban the flag of the Southern Cross, all symbols of rebellion. The star and sickle, countless atrocities performed under that banner, the same can said about many other symbols of countries like India, Britain, China, Japan, Ireland etc etc etc. If these particular symbols are drawn and deface people property that's is the illegal act not the symbol. In the western so called democratic world it time governments get into the 21 st century and not linger on the past.
...
Some governments move into the 21s5 century. I the words of Forrest Gump, "that all I have to say about."


Some things just should not be forgotten. Industrialized mass murder is unprecedented in history, the swastika is not just a symbol of some sort of rebellion but the icon of an inhuman and racist ideology... An ideology still too alive in modern western societies!

Germany is doing a good job keeping memories alive and opposing neo-nazi movements. Many other western nations still largely ignore their dark spots in history.




Horst Wessell -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/7/2011 1:06:33 AM)

Not gonna lock the thread? Fine. I find the Hammer and sickle as offensive, if not more, than the swastica. The game was made political by NOT having the swastica represent Germany. This forum, along with some posters makes me sick anyway.



SgtKachalin -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/7/2011 1:15:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Horst Wessell
Not gonna lock the thread? Fine.


[:D] Haven't left yet eh?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Horst Wessell
I find the Hammer and sickle as offensive, if not more, than the swastica.


Then you're free to not participate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Horst Wessell
The game was made political by NOT having the swastica represent Germany.


Hardly, but then you know that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Horst Wessell
This forum, along with some posters makes me sick anyway.


I imagine there's a lot about this mongrel, impure, chaotic world that makes you sick. Ahh, if only you were fuh... I mean king, eh?

Leaving yet?



chris0827 -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/7/2011 1:18:47 AM)

I wonder if he'll ever realize that he spelled Horst Wessel wrong.



LiquidSky -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/7/2011 1:30:56 AM)



What do you expect from a redneck from Montana



Aurelian -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/7/2011 1:40:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Horst Wessell

Not gonna lock the thread? Fine. I find the Hammer and sickle as offensive, if not more, than the swastica. The game was made political by NOT having the swastica represent Germany. This forum, along with some posters makes me sick anyway.


You're free to modify the graphics to include the swastika. In fact, there in the mod forum a file that does that. As for it being "political" because it isn't displayed, well, you have a profound lack of the law. And this isn't the first game that doesn't have one.

In order to operate in other countries, a company has to adhere to said country's laws. So I fail to see where you have a legitimate, or even sensible, beef.

This horse is not only well beaten to death, it's been beaten into dust. You're not exactly winning any points by claiming the forum, and by extension, Matrix and those who publish games through them, as sick because they follow the laws of countries they sell their products in.



Ikazuchi0585 -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/7/2011 1:54:02 AM)

"This forum, along with some posters makes me sick anyway"
you've got a weak stomach then.
what should make you sick is what the people you idolize did to millions of innocent Jews. Go back to your hitler shrine and don't bother our presence again.




paullus99 -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/7/2011 3:26:06 AM)

As an avid scenario paintball player, we've had a few "issues" with mil-sim teams that take the WWII representations to the extreme (including a very rapid group that represents the 1st SS LAH in all its "glory." There have been multiple discussions on whether or not this is appropriate (especially their using all of the various SS runes & swastikas as well) - but they've not backed down.

Also, at an event a couple of years ago, not to far from my home, there was a WWII-related game where the German commander arrived in full SS regalia (including ceremonial dagger) and numerous Nazi flags. I got the distinct impression that this may not have been part of "historical" accuracy, as much as stuff he might have had left over from the last skinhead rally - very scary guy.

Given the connotations - I wouldn't encourage anyone to display that kind stuff, and given the laws in some countries Matrix is marketing itself, the decision is really a no brainer. If you want to mod, go right ahead - but until someone passes a law that the Soviet emblems are outlawed, don't expect them to be removed from games - unlike the Nazi symbols.



Aurelian -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/7/2011 3:41:07 AM)

Maybe there should be a sticky about it?

Here's the sticky at Paradox:

Rules
Well it took less than half a day here are the rules you must follow

NOTE: There will not be any gulags or deathcamps (including POW camps) to build in Hearts of Iron3, nor will there be the ability to simulate the Holocaust or systematic purges, so I ask you not to discuss these topics as they are not related to this game. Thank You. Threads bringing up will be closed without discussion.

NOTE: Strategic bombing in HoI3 will be abstracted and not allow you to terror bomb civilians specifically. Chemical weapons will also not be included in the game. Any threads that complain about this issue will be closed without discussion.

NOTE: There will not be any swastikas in the game, because it IS illegal to show them in Germany and various other countries. Same goes for other Nazi symbols (e.g. related to the SS) or Nazi propaganda material, including songs etc. Any links posted to a mod which includes a Swastika or other illegal Nazi symbols will be deleted. Any threads that complain about this issue will be closed.




Mynok -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/7/2011 3:49:48 AM)


The swastika used by the Finns is certainly not the same as the one used by the Nazis. Different orientation and different direction.

While I'm sure that the French would have legitimate issues with any version of the Iron Cross considering it marched through their capital on several occasions, it is not generally recognized as a symbol of the Nazis as much as a symbol of the the German army...Prussian to be exact.

Making a strained analogy from our history here in the US, the Confederate national flag does not have the same onerous connotations as the Confederate battle flag. This is simply because the latter was confiscated and demeaned by the racist groups that sprung up after our civil war.

It boils down to symbols become reflections of those who grasp them, and the Nazi swastika and the Confederate battle flag have been grasped by totally despicable groups. They should be rightfully shunned by all with a modicum of decency about them.




Skanvak -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/7/2011 10:37:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BASB

At the end of the day why deny history, it is almost 70 years in our past, but it happened. America doesn't ban CSA regalia, Australia doesn't ban the flag of the Southern Cross, all symbols of rebellion. The star and sickle, countless atrocities performed under that banner, the same can said about many other symbols of countries like India, Britain, China, Japan, Ireland etc etc etc. If these particular symbols are drawn and deface people property that's is the illegal act not the symbol. In the western so called democratic world it time governments get into the 21 st century and not linger on the past. This is not a political comment purely someone who likes total immersion in the war games I play. White stars on US trucks Italian symbols on Italian trucks the rising sun symbol on Japanese aeroplanes roundels on Australian aeroplanes red stars on Russian tanks and German symbols on German tanks. Some governments move into the 21st century. I the words of Forrest Gump, "that all I have to say about."


I am along this line.

To Aurelian : Though I don't like part of Pradox view on the subject (chemical and terror bombing especially), we are at a point we are discussing the German law and not Matrix decision as I think we are all grown up and pretty aware of the commercial reason.

This debate is meaningfull only relate to the law by itself. I don't think that Matrix made the game political by removing the Swastika and leaving in the Hammer and sickle. This is just one of the bad consequence of this Law.

I think Paulus example is good to make the distinction between correct representation of history and somewhat being proud of representing the ideology of the side palyed (I had issue with player not wanting to play the Soviet because the were "Evil").

As the kind of thing are always subjective. We should stick to the "why deny history" point and try to petition the German government to consider historical game as work on history and left the bon on using swastika for german flag and counter (after all we us the SS symbol on counter with no problem).



Rasputitsa -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/7/2011 11:19:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: micha1100
Rasputitsa, please don't misunderstand me, I'm absolutely not saying that Germany should be proud about the France campaign. But I do believe that what happened in France 1940 is no reason to ban Wehrmacht symbols. When I spoke of "honourable" I only meant that in comparison to all the other things that happened in the war and under Hitler's reign.


I understand the sensitivity of this subject and the need to choose words carefully, which is what prompted my post.

My personal view is that symbols and words hurt nobody, it is people who do the damage. The Soviet symbols are in the same category, as much misery and pain was committed under these banners. However, I live in a country where we have the right to choose and for historical reasons I have applied the patch to correct the symbology in WiTE. I would defend the right of anyone to have the same choice and it is only through an understanding of history that the facts surrounding these symbols can be clearly understood. Which is why any attempt to re-write history needs to be challenged, I am sorry if I misunderstood your motives. [:)]





Muzrub -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/7/2011 11:26:34 AM)

quote:

Australia doesn't ban the flag of the Southern Cross, all symbols of rebellion


There is no controversy surrounding the Southern Cross flag in Australia- maybe in time it will be our national flag if we become a Republic (which is another issue).
I do take issue with it being compared to the Confederate flag though- deep issue.

But that is another discussion.

As for the Swastika and Hammer Sickle- their both offensive to various people.
To us it is a game, something the Mods can sort out...
To others these symbols bare more ill will and terror than most of us can imagine.

This topic is old and tired and these symbols belong to another age- one we should never forget, lest it is repeated.






Rasputitsa -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/7/2011 11:39:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: molchomor
Regarding the "honorable" invasion of France and all that (is there something as an honorable war? Really?).

One would think that the Nazis got slammed hard for the previous attacks but in fact the attack on France is what actually did them in at Nuremberg (oh the irony!).

More fun facts freely from memory (I'm sure someone will check this anyway) :

Invasion of Czeckoslovakia: Nope, could not blame Germany here as Poland got a bit greedy too and took some territory when the chance presented itself.

Invasion of Poland: Nope, could not blame Germany here as the Soviets invaded Poland also and grabbed a huge chunk of it.

Invasion of Scandics: Nope, could not blame Germany here as the English invasion fleet bound for Norway actually set sail a couple of days before Germany launched its offensive.

Invasion of Lowlands etc. : Nope, could not blame Germany here as the French executed their plan and fell into these countries ASAP when Germany started pushing for France.

Invasion of France: Yep, clear case of aggression -> Conviction at Nuremberg. [X(]


The indictment had to avoid implicating the Soviet Union, which bears an equal responsibility for the start of WW2, unfortunately having the most divisions counts.



Lrfss -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/7/2011 6:44:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

Ive had a look at Nazi memorabilla some of it is very nice, you can even buy some of it.


Here's one marching standard for PB 27 that Commie's didn't burn in 1945, enjoy!


[image]local://upfiles/6508/46D696F13135415C90832504B4943D07.jpg[/image]



Lrfss -> RE: Hammer and sickle (2/7/2011 6:45:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

Ive had a look at Nazi memorabilla some of it is very nice, you can even buy some of it.


And the backside of same!

[image]local://upfiles/6508/785C15EBE15A4B82B32845931BA9D484.jpg[/image]



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