RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (Full Version)

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randallw -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/14/2011 1:04:01 AM)

Army HQs can handle 3 engineer/sapper units, not just 2. [:)]



Aurelian -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/14/2011 1:40:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

There is a psychological value to three stacks of three fully mechanized/motorized divisions - both for the attacker and defender.  They are meant to be used as a mass, not thrown about all nibly bimbly.  There is a threat value to them, and an actual value - one of those times that the fears of the defender are actually justified.


Feel free to throw them all nibly bimbly. I won't mind.



Mynok -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/14/2011 2:23:59 AM)


Just keep them out of the slithy toves.



PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/14/2011 3:11:50 AM)

My panzers go "snicker-snack"



Mynok -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/14/2011 3:37:28 AM)


You need to whip out your vorpal blade...erm....uh...or not. [:D]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/14/2011 4:24:34 PM)

Turn 7

31 july 1941


So far so good [8D] On this turn his main thrust has been made in my Kalinin Front, near Velikie Luki. My forces have more or less resisted although there are some breaches, but believe it or not I don't think they are very dangerous (I might be utterly wrong though [:D]).

And here's the first dilemma... What are these armored forces going to do? They have two choices. A push towards Rzhev or Kalinin is out of question. That would leave two very dangerous flanks (and he simply does not have enough infantry). So either these panzers are going to support the AGN operations (they would go north/northeast) or they will be trying to accomplish their theoric task: the capture of Vitebsk, Smolensk -the collapse of my Western Front that is- and then resume towards Moscow (a southeast direction then). The good thing? Both routes have lots of swamps! I know the last patch changed some things but swamps are STILL better than clear hexes. And still, swamps are not good places for tanks [:)]

On the next turn I will know the answer, I suspect.

And sort of funny... As some of you know, on my other game I managed to annihilate my opponent's AGN Panzers. On this game 2ndACR is er... "collaborating"... [:D] No, he is not going to allow me to destroy any of his panzers (in the north and anywhere)... but these dangerous forces have been neutralized by himself (NOT by me [:)]), because I don't think they'll be going anyhwere in that bottleneck. Soooooo... In the end it's like they were already destroyed... I could be of course totally wrong but now the defensive values of my defending forces there is quite big. I don't know if he will be able to dislodge them now.

[image]local://upfiles/11562/CC8019F129884D799B6CCE951D620516.jpg[/image]



Mynok -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/14/2011 4:28:23 PM)


They can re-position very quickly when needed.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/14/2011 4:37:34 PM)

Sure they can: but it's one LOST turn. And Germans have to use very wisely the first 17 turns. So he can do that many times for all I care. And if you're thinking about the Panzers in the bottleneck, he would need minimum 2 turns to do that [:)] I mean they don't arrive and wildly charge into the enemy positions.

On my other AAR I used this chess analogy: if you move let's say your horse on turn 6 and then on turn 7 you decide that position is not good enough = you have lost one turn. That's a very dangerous thing to do in chess: you will lose initiative and in chess this means you are possibly 99,87% lost... [:)]

EDIT: in the end he would have lost 2 + 2 = 4 turns! That in my opinion IS a lot and should cost him Leningrad (if only I was a competent player) [:D]



Josh -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/14/2011 4:52:55 PM)

"...And sort of funny... As some of you know, on my other game I managed to annihilate my opponent's AGN Panzers. On this game 2ndACR is er... "collaborating"... [:D] No, he is not going to allow me to destroy any of his panzers (in the north and anywhere)... but these dangerous forces have been neutralized by himself (NOT by me [:)]), because I don't think they'll be going anyhwere in that bottleneck...."

Well I've been wondering about that move too. [&:] 
Fast moving heavy hitters... going nowheres [&:] I wonder what Fast Heinz would have to say about that. Oh well, 2ndACR probably has his reasons, we'll see how it plays out.



Sabre21 -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/14/2011 5:16:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Sure they can: but it's one LOST turn. And Germans have to use very wisely the first 17 turns. So he can do that many times for all I care. And if you're thinking about the Panzers in the bottleneck, he would need minimum 2 turns to do that [:)] I mean they don't arrive and wildly charge into the enemy positions.

On my other AAR I used this chess analogy: if you move let's say your horse on turn 6 and then on turn 7 you decide that position is not good enough = you have lost one turn. That's a very dangerous thing to do in chess: you will lose initiative and in chess this means you are possibly 99,87% lost... [:)]

EDIT: in the end he would have lost 2 + 2 = 4 turns! That in my opinion IS a lot and should cost him Leningrad (if only I was a competent player) [:D]


Not necessarily. The intent may very well have been to draw forces away from the actual point of breakthru. If what appears to be the axis of advance is but a deception and a breakthru of the defender occurs elswhere unexpectedly, then no, a turn has not been lost.

Using your mobile forces in such a manner as to remain flexible and maintain their maneuverability to create rapid changes is an essential strategy of early German success.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/14/2011 5:34:51 PM)

Sabre, I still don't get it. Who is going to make that breakthrough? The infantry near Pskov (still in my hands)? [:)] Or the AGC Northern Panzer Army near Velikie Luki diverted to help in the north? That would be indeed a threat but that would mean Moscow is 100% safe (so mission "number one" is in my bag). Maybe Leningrad is HIS real target by the way. Still... those panzers there, it has to be wrong, it must wrong. Suffice to say that they are the ones supposed to make that breakthrough while other forces contain me, not the other way around. We will see [:)]



Mynok -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/14/2011 6:04:53 PM)


I would bet that they were in need of rest anyway. Right around this time of the game, the Germans have to pull the panzers back and rest and refit them for a turn or two. You don't get 17 turns of full bore mobile usage.



Encircled -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/14/2011 7:05:31 PM)

If he is spending a turn of HQ build up, then beware

They have 50 MP's, and thats a hell of a lot of distance

Using the Pz as feint is a cracking tactic, and its almost impossible to spot



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/14/2011 7:46:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: alfonso

I think that if in turn 6 you are holding Vitebsk and Mogilev it is beginning to be "mathematically" impossible for the Russians to lose Moscow. He is well behind schedule in the center, and holding Pskov in the North is also promising.

As you probably know, there has been some comments in the forum about how easy is for the Soviets to build "impenetrable 4-hex deep level 4 forts"...what I see in your game is what I see in my games. In turn 4 a lot of forts 1 and some forts 2, and in turn 6 a lot of forts 2 and some forts 3. And that is simply because there are not so many hordes to make 3-unit stacks and dig each hex at maximum speed. At least in my games.


I really hope you're 100% right! [:)] The truth is I still think he is going to grab both Moscow and Leningrad... or very very close!

No, I haven't read that thread at all. But yes, I know a 3-units stacks linear defense in contact with the enemy at the beginning of the game is a suicide. It can be useful in some sectors if the forts are big = high defensive values that can stop or slow the enemy down a few turns. To me a "held" is almost a victory. But still, the Germans can always surround them.

As for the Panzers in that bottleneck, if you ask what I prefer: there or near Pskov with space to maneuver... I say "gimme that bottleneck, please"... In fact, when they arrived there 2ndACR said on the email "I found a bunch of your units". Needless to say, I didn't know what units he was talking about. Then I opened the turn and deduced he was talking about the units I had sent to meet this threat. SO... that makes me think He did NOT expect to find a solid defence there (a mistake per se: never assume the enemy will do or not do something). Ergo I think he really wanted to attack Leningrad from there! So I still think it's a mistake and that he's lost 4 turns... I mean, those Panzers near Pskov could have been put to very good use on these last turns [:)]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/14/2011 8:06:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

If he is spending a turn of HQ build up, then beware

They have 50 MP's, and thats a hell of a lot of distance

Using the Pz as feint is a cracking tactic, and its almost impossible to spot


That's indeed a possibility. But I can't control that. As you say, BEWARE [&o]

Mynok, yes, I know the German war machine needs a little stop on these turns. But still, why not in the vicinity of Pskov? [:)]



Sabre21 -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/14/2011 9:04:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Sabre, I still don't get it. Who is going to make that breakthrough? The infantry near Pskov (still in my hands)? [:)] Or the AGC Northern Panzer Army near Velikie Luki diverted to help in the north? That would be indeed a threat but that would mean Moscow is 100% safe (so mission "number one" is in my bag). Maybe Leningrad is HIS real target by the way. Still... those panzers there, it has to be wrong, it must wrong. Suffice to say that they are the ones supposed to make that breakthrough while other forces contain me, not the other way around. We will see [:)]


I was talking in general terms, not that specific situation. Overall you are in pretty good shape. He is dispersing his armor way to much and won't be posing too much of a threat with them.

Based on what I can tell, he has the bulk of his AGN armor up near Narva with little infantry support meaning he will try and bulldoze his way with armor..not a good thing for him. He has lots of infantry near Pskov but not enough armor to take advantage of any type of breakthru that might occur. In both cases you are in good shape. In the event he does push north with more armor from AGC, you will need a another line of defenders along the Luga to slow that down.

It is still early on and much can happen in the next 5 or 6 turns so don't forego in depth defenses. I watched Senno turn his game around with Oleg in just a few turns and now Oleg is hard pressed.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/14/2011 9:48:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21
In the event he does push north with more armor from AGC, you will need a another line of defenders along the Luga to slow that down.


Sabre, on last turn I threw those defensive lines overboard because I thought I had to stop yes or yes the panzers in the Narva area. I possibly sent way too much resources? Yes. On this turn, YES, I am starting to build these two recommended defensive lines [&o] I hope it is not too late. On my other game I started to build this line from turn 2 or 3. And only diverted these forces when I realized the killing of the AGN Panzers was possible. On this game I think I am being perhaps much more agressive, but so far this paid dividends. Still, those lines are indeed necessary [:)]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/14/2011 10:46:20 PM)

Ok, the Leningrad, Northwest Fronts.

[image]local://upfiles/11562/90BCC1300BA94BAA97B4D570EBCD143A.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/14/2011 10:53:49 PM)

The Kalinin Front. The mission of these panzers? We will see on next turn. Maybe he just wants to trap some of my units [:)]

[image]local://upfiles/11562/06A4F5F67A424D4EA1041BA7472C6187.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/14/2011 11:03:51 PM)

In the Western and Bryansk Fronts sun is shining, birds are singing and blah blah blah (well, at least in the former). He should be paying attention to this place! I'm pretty certain it is a VITAL area! [8D]

[image]local://upfiles/11562/1030C17EDA3B4D50BBB1769BDC377B9C.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/14/2011 11:16:38 PM)

In the Southwestern Front, not much to do. I keep checkerboarding. Oh, and here he might trap some industry [:(] or maybe not. Let's see if I can invite him to go northwards [:)] More cavalry brought here, ready to create a mess. If I only could cut one or two panzers off and buy another turn! [sm=innocent0001.gif]



[image]local://upfiles/11562/989F4A42D9D3404FA6E52BA7DDF87D93.jpg[/image]



Encircled -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/14/2011 11:46:32 PM)

I'm only guessing, but it looks to me like he's going for the mass encirclement around Smolensk.

Its massively risky, but the longer you hold on to the front line you have, the more likely it is that he will attempt it as the rewards could be even bigger than his destruction of SW Front on Turn 3

I'd certainly be considering a withdrawal to be honest in the centre, though it will be very obvious what he is up to by next turn.

If you don't mind me asking, how are your recon aircraft holding up?



alfonso -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/15/2011 12:00:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

The tanks can't get there. Already used all of their MPs. But on next turn let's say 3 of them might manage to make retreat some of his Panzers. NOT a crazy idea at all. The combined offensive value might me around 15 or 17... + the CV of neighbouring units. And Rokossovsky is possibly the best leader for Armored forces [sm=00000622.gif] I dream I dream I dream, but in theory it's true [:)]


Be careful with one thing. Those Russians Tank divisions with high CV have a lot of tanks, but this value can be misleading if the tanks are, let's say, BT-7. I am not completely sure about this, but a division with 100 bad tanks has the same CV than another division with 100 good tanks. But during the battle, the BT-7s die as flies, and at the end of the battle, the CV is not what you expected.

My 1st Tank Div has 180 BT-7m and a CV=6. My 16th Tank Div has a CV=6, too, but it has 160 T-34s, so I would think the latter one is way more efficient.

Please anyone correct me if I am wrong. But it seems a good idea to locate where are your crack T-34 and KV-1 tanks and send them to critical points.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/15/2011 12:12:28 AM)

Encircled, in theory that should be their task (the AGC panzers), if he sticks to a historical plan. Still, I can't see how he could manage to do this massive encirclement... Not a lot of panzers in the Velikie Luki area to do that methinks (not to mention that infantry should follow and secure the flanks). But there is no infantry [:)] And I have many forces here. As you say it should be very risky. BUT, the first turns proved my opponent IS an agressive player. Maybe he has a cunning plan [&o]

Hmm, I don't think I will be withdrawing. I like this place. He will need to fight hard, very hard, if he wants it: the fate of Moscow is here I think [8D]

In theory he's got what we see on the screenshots. I 100% use the recon planes (not an easy life for these pilots but lots of vodka [:D]). On these last turns not a lot of missions, true.

Alfonso, I am rather primitive here. If I see a 1=1 I think "ok, an ant". If I see a 6=12 I think "ooooh, interesting, throw them to the vile enemy". If the attack fails there's always the NKVD firing squad [:D] I mean, I admit I am not very sophisticated.

To me now this Narva River area is a "critical place". I always look for the MOST dangerous units. This is vital. In the north they are in that bottleneck (mistake or not, it's irrelevant).



Mynok -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/15/2011 2:37:47 AM)

You need units entrenching at Neva or whatever that town is on the backdoor to Leningrad.



randallw -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/15/2011 9:23:10 AM)

I try to make some effort at looking at the exp/morale of a unit beofre I toss it into the battle area.  In some ways a rifle division of CV 3 may be a better unit than a mech division of CV 4.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/15/2011 1:23:08 PM)

Mynok, I don't have STAVKA strategic reserves left [:(] I only have what arrives every turn.

Randall, but if the German manages to recreate Barbarossa, that's a luxury the Soviets cannot afford. In fact it's in the manual as well. In theory when you get a new fresh Soviet unit it should be behind the front grosso modo 1 or 2 months. In my current situation this is not possible at all. I am not that desperate but still, to contain my opponent I need all of my STAVKA reserves. Easier said than done [:)]

The destruction of the Southwestern Front is possibly the key, I think. I can compare. On my other game this front was spared and had many rifle divisions that could be diverted to help here and there. Not the case now.



Mynok -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/15/2011 5:58:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Mynok, I don't have STAVKA strategic reserves left [:(] I only have what arrives every turn.



You need units there entrenching more than you need units defending forward. Yank some off the Luga line and put them there.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/15/2011 10:47:50 PM)

You guys are going to drive these poor soldiers crazy [:D] Ok, I will try to defend that part. Though I will not move any guy from the Luga River aka first line of defence. Hmm, I don't like to spend APs on this (although my armies are now rather well organized and with support) so I will be creating let's say 3 fortified regions on this area [:)] The fact is I don't have strategic reserves. 2ndACR hasn't sent the turn so I don't know what's going to more or less happen. IF the AGC panzers push towards Leningrad that means Moscow is safe therefore I would divert forces from the center to the north to protect my second prioritary objective (Leningrad itself that is). And I still have to send a rifle division to the Finnish No Attack Line thing east of Lake Ladoga.

P.S.: anyway, what makes you think I will be allowing my estimated e-enemy to reach Leningrad...? [sm=00000622.gif]



Mynok -> RE: Stalin's in the gulag - Tullius (Soviet) vs 2ndACR (Axis) (3/15/2011 11:15:31 PM)


It's quite possible you could hold him off. That's very good defensive terrain up there. However, you have a weak spot near Pskov that could be exploited, where the two airbornes and the security regiment are. Pop those three away and get a 3 hexer on your swamp rats in the middle will definitely bust that line. It's just fortunate for you right now he looks to have no armor to exploit that one. With all of 4th panzer he could come pretty dern close to isolating the whole Pskov bunch. You will need some of those units back on the Luga. What you have there now is fine for digging but it won't hold up to German infantry.

Fortified areas probably aren't a bad solution at all if you are that strained for diggers.



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