RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (Full Version)

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Seminole -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (1/23/2012 4:15:06 PM)

Reserve commitments can be 'used up' if the reserve units burn up their available MP.

You might want to consider less critical attacks first, as sort of feint to draw the reserves.  You're not guaranteed they'll commit, but it can help when they do.

Reserves can also commit to the attack.  I try to keep my Tank Bde's in the second echelon to participate as reserves, and have had some success.  Since motorized take longer to reach enough wins for Guards status, this can be useful.



76mm -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (1/23/2012 6:09:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole
You might want to consider less critical attacks first, as sort of feint to draw the reserves.  You're not guaranteed they'll commit, but it can help when they do.

Reserves can also commit to the attack.  I try to keep my Tank Bde's in the second echelon to participate as reserves, and have had some success.  Since motorized take longer to reach enough wins for Guards status, this can be useful.

Most of my attacks are not particularly critital, I am attacking along the line, most hexes are not really more important than the next. I have tried to launch my heavier attacks first, hoping to draw reserves, but as mentioned above, usually when the defenders are clearly outclassed the computer will not allocate the reserve. Then, after all of the attacks which I expect to be successful in any event, I launch the ones that will probably succeed without reserve commitment, and fail with it. This is when the reserves activate and screw up my attacks. The computer just seems a little too smart to me. Maybe I will try to launch some weakish attacks far from the reserve unit to see if they will use up their reserve mileage quicker.

I have also tried assigning tank corps to reserve in an offensive role, and have had some success with this, or at least some tank corps have been committed. I can't say that they contributed very much to the resulting victories, although maybe it gives them an extra "W" for guards status.



Seminole -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (1/23/2012 7:09:46 PM)

quote:

Most of my attacks are not particularly critital, I am attacking along the line, most hexes are not really more important than the next.


I was thinking of the every once and a while when you have a chance to cut off a German in the first winter. Very nice to at least set up a route if you can't establish a true encirclement/surrender.

I routed a Pzr Div this way, and achieved very nice AFVs losses. Can't be good for their morale, either.

quote:

I can't say that they contributed very much to the resulting victories, although maybe it gives them an extra "W" for guards status.


I was thinking of the win/loss award, not so much the CV addition.



Farfarer61 -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (1/25/2012 4:03:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak
Reserve mode was supposed to be the counterbalance to +1, but with +1 gone, reserves are more likely to mess up soviet attacks.


That's for sure. Actually I think it is a pretty good mechanism, but right now I think it works a little too well, for the reasons described above. From my experience, there are either no reserve commitments in an area or several, presumably for the reasons you describe.



Bomb the mobile reserves. Disruption seems to really lower the chance of reaction. Look for AFV losses and the soft factor to turn yellow, orange or red. Reaction forces can often be reached by the dreaded U2VS Night Bomber :)



Flaviusx -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (1/25/2012 6:20:20 PM)

Almost anything else he does with the Red Air force would be an improvement over the suicidal airfield attacks. (For the love of God, stop throwing away planes like this.)




76mm -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (1/25/2012 7:14:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer
Bomb the mobile reserves. Disruption seems to really lower the chance of reaction. Look for AFV losses and the soft factor to turn yellow, orange or red. Reaction forces can often be reached by the dreaded U2VS Night Bomber :)

Interesting, would not have thought of that, will give it a try...



76mm -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (1/25/2012 7:27:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Almost anything else he does with the Red Air force would be an improvement over the suicidal airfield attacks. (For the love of God, stop throwing away planes like this.)


heh heh, I've been waiting for someone to bring this up...

I'll tell you what I've been trying to do, although I have to admit that at this point I have no idea if it has been effective.

At some point in mid-1942, after another perfectly-executed encirclement, I got fed up. The only reason he could pick the spots was because of very effective recon, while my pathetic planes could not find most of his panzers.

So I decided that the best way for the Red Air Force to support the Red Army would be to prevent the Red Army from getting surrounded, by making him more reluctant to launch encirclements because he couldn't figure out what was behind the lines, because I'd crippled his recon abilities. So since then I've been bombing the hell out of his airbases where recon planes are based.

As a result, I've destroyed huge numbers of his recon planes, although sometimes at massive cost. While his recon flights have greatly decreased, correlation is not causation, and there are any number of reasons why he might be flying less recon.

Wherever he has lots of airbases, it is an absolute massacre when I try to attack, but I've found that I can generally do some damage against isolated airbases.




Flaviusx -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (1/25/2012 7:37:44 PM)

You don't need to perform suicidal airfield attacks to attrit his recon force. That recon force will drop of its own accord if pushed too hard with the latest changes.

I would instead focus blanketing sections of the front with air superiority and forcing him to fight in the open, not in his airbases where all the chances are in his favor. Set your intercept values high, 200+. (Set your escort value very high as well.) Force him to intercept you in places where your numbers will hurt him. You might even consider flying air sweeps in sections of the front to do this.

You will never get the Red Air force trained up if it suicides itself on airbase attacks. These 10-1 loss ratios may be covered by production, but it also means your groups will be perpetually green and make no gains in quality versus the Luftwaffe.






76mm -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (1/25/2012 7:50:23 PM)

Thanks for the tips, I will try as you suggest. Frankly, I have always had a weak grasp of intercept, escort, air sweeps, etc. I recall reading these sections of the manual without much comprehension.

I should post some of my air unit stats--at least some of them have very impressive experience and morale stats, although I would guess that they are outnumbered by the raw recruits.



76mm -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (1/28/2012 7:21:48 AM)

I am in the process of wrapping up Turn 113, August 12, 1943, and would appreciate people's thoughts on my prospects. Here is the front between Kursk and Kharkov (the front elsewhere being largely static):
[image]http://www.vervecom.net/WITE/113-bulge-s.jpg[/image]

My thinking is that if I can get across the Dnepr this winter, I should be in decent shape. I am therefore aiming generally towards Cherkassy, or perhaps between Cherkassy and D-Town.

At this point, virtually all of my attacks in this sector are successful, even against his strongest stacks, although I do have to concentrate 2-3 of my stacks plus some artillery to achieve these victories.

I am also gradually creating armies in other sectors which can attack despite his fortifications, although this is a slow process and essentially a side-show; I am concentrating most of my efforts and resources in the Kursk-Kharkov (KK) area and will continue to do so.



Flaviusx -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (1/28/2012 7:55:27 AM)

I think this is looking pretty good. How close are you to breaking past his fort lines?

Where is all his armor at? Looks like a fair bit of it is on the front line. Get more recon out there, and count his panzers up.




76mm -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (1/28/2012 8:14:16 AM)

His fort lines are continually expanding backwards, but by now I am generally up against Level 2s, which don't seem to help him much. I almost always have more than 10 engineer points (sometimes almost 20) and 4-5k art tubes in my attacks, and the forts just seem to melt away.

That screen shot is pre-recon. After getting burned so many times, I am pretty religious about recon, and this turn found 17 of his PDs: four near Stalino, three south of Kharkov, five north of Kharkov, and five near Kursk. So they are pretty spread around, and are almost all on the front line or one hex back. Interestingly, this turn, none of the PDs were committed in reserve, I don't know if he took them off reserve status or what.

One thing I'm noticing in my battles: he is taking massive losses to his artillery; every time he loses, he loses 25-33% of his tubes. Seems a bit excessive, is this WAD? I guess it represents counter-battery fire by my massed arty? I've got to think this will really cripple his CVs before too long?



Tarhunnas -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (1/28/2012 8:19:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I am in the process of wrapping up Turn 113, August 12, 1943, and would appreciate people's thoughts on my prospects. Here is the front between Kursk and Kharkov (the front elsewhere being largely static):
[image]http://www.vervecom.net/WITE/113-bulge-s.jpg[/image]

My thinking is that if I can get across the Dnepr this winter, I should be in decent shape. I am therefore aiming generally towards Cherkassy, or perhaps between Cherkassy and D-Town.

At this point, virtually all of my attacks in this sector are successful, even against his strongest stacks, although I do have to concentrate 2-3 of my stacks plus some artillery to achieve these victories.

I am also gradually creating armies in other sectors which can attack despite his fortifications, although this is a slow process and essentially a side-show; I am concentrating most of my efforts and resources in the Kursk-Kharkov (KK) area and will continue to do so.



Looking good! I would say continue with that!

As the German, I have often experienced that when a sector is quiet you can get away with a rather thin line there, but once it starts to move backwards, things will collapse fast. That is why I would strongly recommend you to continue probing and mounting attacks in quiet areas, to stretch the Germans.



76mm -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (1/28/2012 8:33:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
That is why I would strongly recommend you to continue probing and mounting attacks in quiet areas, to stretch the Germans.


That is exactly the intent, but whereever I don't have several rifle corps I can't really make a dent in his lines.

I am building armies here and there with six rifle corps and two ArtDivs to do just what you are suggesting. One is in action near the Finnish border (it was dispatched there in response to the pocket he created up there recently, I and just kept it there), and a couple down near Stalino. Another is about to go into action in the Crimea, and then I'll start building one for the center, around Smolensk. Meanwhile the steamroller will continue towards the Dnepr.



Flaviusx -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (1/28/2012 3:32:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

His fort lines are continually expanding backwards, but by now I am generally up against Level 2s, which don't seem to help him much. I almost always have more than 10 engineer points (sometimes almost 20) and 4-5k art tubes in my attacks, and the forts just seem to melt away.

That screen shot is pre-recon. After getting burned so many times, I am pretty religious about recon, and this turn found 17 of his PDs: four near Stalino, three south of Kharkov, five north of Kharkov, and five near Kursk. So they are pretty spread around, and are almost all on the front line or one hex back. Interestingly, this turn, none of the PDs were committed in reserve, I don't know if he took them off reserve status or what.

One thing I'm noticing in my battles: he is taking massive losses to his artillery; every time he loses, he loses 25-33% of his tubes. Seems a bit excessive, is this WAD? I guess it represents counter-battery fire by my massed arty? I've got to think this will really cripple his CVs before too long?


The heavy artillery losses are partially the result of your incredible gun superiority, but also due in large part to the way retreats are handled in this game. It has always worked this way for any game that gets to this point -- you are in driver's seat now for sure. Although the rolling level 2s probably will prevent you from actually turning your armor loose in his rear and restrict you to deliberate attacks, they won't stop you cold. Just keep picking at that scab and don't let it heal up.

I do think the losses are too severe on retreats. It makes it very difficult to balance things out like, say armament production on the Axis side. Once the Axis gets into a negative feedback loop, even the most drastic economies might not be good enough and in extreme situations will become a production bottleneck...and manpower will accumulate. (Tarhunnas knows all about this...)



Wuffer -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (1/28/2012 3:56:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I do think the losses are too severe on retreats.


Sorry for hijacking, 76mm, but I had just strongly agree to Flavius. Really missing the old standings of TOAW, without any delay-order now you are almost forced to stand and die... I advocate the developers to add this in WITW.

BTW, I'm following your AAR since the beginning, as I'm reading both sides, I won't comment here further, but just want to thank.



Peltonx -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (1/28/2012 7:11:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I am in the process of wrapping up Turn 113, August 12, 1943, and would appreciate people's thoughts on my prospects. Here is the front between Kursk and Kharkov (the front elsewhere being largely static):
[image]http://www.vervecom.net/WITE/113-bulge-s.jpg[/image]

My thinking is that if I can get across the Dnepr this winter, I should be in decent shape. I am therefore aiming generally towards Cherkassy, or perhaps between Cherkassy and D-Town.

At this point, virtually all of my attacks in this sector are successful, even against his strongest stacks, although I do have to concentrate 2-3 of my stacks plus some artillery to achieve these victories.

I am also gradually creating armies in other sectors which can attack despite his fortifications, although this is a slow process and essentially a side-show; I am concentrating most of my efforts and resources in the Kursk-Kharkov (KK) area and will continue to do so.



Your not going to break through the fort belt during Spring/summer or fall, but during winter by February or March you should beable to get in the clear for 2-6 turns. Thats how its worked in my games during 42/43/44 winters.

Good game to watch for sure.




76mm -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (1/29/2012 12:15:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Your not going to break through the fort belt during Spring/summer or fall, but during winter by February or March you should beable to get in the clear for 2-6 turns. Thats how its worked in my games during 42/43/44 winters.


Generally agree, although I thought it would be a bit sooner, maybe by January or so. As the bulge extends and the line becomes longer, his line will get thinner and it should be easier to pick weak spots, I hope... I actually have some fairly strong tank corps and think that I may be able to punch some holes once the bulge extends several more hexes.

Also, as to whether it is a good game to watch or not--we have been through so many patches (have been playing since 1.00) that I'm not sure whether any lessons learned can be applied to games under current patches. That said, at least from my side the game feels fairly realistic.



M60A3TTS -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (1/29/2012 12:31:07 AM)

Just keep pounding away. I remember a while back how frustrated you were by some of the combat results, but you seem to be making headway now. I think to some extent you've been perfecting your battering ram techniques.



Q-Ball -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (1/29/2012 1:34:53 AM)

I think the Werhmacht reaches a tipping point, where slow grinding turns into a runaway train. Takes awhile, keep at it.



76mm -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (1/29/2012 6:34:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
I remember a while back how frustrated you were by some of the combat results, but you seem to be making headway now. I think to some extent you've been perfecting your battering ram techniques.


I think artillery divisions along with sapper SUs have made a big difference. Last winter I had plenty of sappers, but no ArtDivs, and was making little progress. Now, most of my attacks use at least two ArtDivs, sometimes up to four, and he has to retreat almost every time.



Peltonx -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (2/3/2012 4:04:36 AM)

Katza mistake was stopping his offensive on turn 58. He like me vs Kamil thought it was possible to dig in and hold doing a back hand blow now and then.

The Russian army grows far to fast.

This was not a 1.05 game as Kamils an mine started under 1.04. Having 7+ million men under arms is not possible with 1.05 by June 42.

Katza is doing better them me but still, you got atleast a minor win. hes got a strong army still with good morale but your getting stronger 3x as fast.

Pelton



76mm -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (2/3/2012 5:24:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Katza mistake was stopping his offensive on turn 58. He like me vs Kamil thought it was possible to dig in and hold doing a back hand blow now and then.


I think this is an interesting question. In retrospect, I don't think digging in is a winning strategy for the Germans by late 1942, but I'm not sure whether continuing the offensive would be either, as I had some powerful reserves in some portions of the front and could have spanked him if I caught him out in the open.

I think the best strategy for the Germans, and one which Ketza has generally been following, is to generally go on the defense by the second half of 1942 and conduct frequent smallish offensives intended to pocket an army or two in a single turn rather than taking Stalingrad, etc. As long as he can conduct adequate recon to ensure that these attacks occur where I do not have powerful reserves, I don't think there is much I could do to stop it. Even this strategy would become difficult to implement by mid-1943, as if I wanted to I could have decent reserves all along the front. But by forcing me to keep these reserves it would significantly slow down my offensive.

Just my two cents...



76mm -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (2/3/2012 5:26:59 AM)

Also, I think the only reason I am finally having some success is that I have concentrated almsot all of my offensive efforts and resources into three fronts, between Kursk and Kharkov. Many Sov players try to attack all along the front, and if I had tried that in this game, Ketza's forts and reserves would have made it a bloody failure IMHO.



76mm -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (2/4/2012 9:49:30 PM)

Sadly, it looks like this game is over; I've been in touch with Ketza, and he's tied up with the RL stuff for a few weeks, and is kind of tired of the various big patch-induced changes as well, so we decided to end it.

This game was just getting to be fun for me, so it is kind of frustrating, but it is what it is.

Think I'll put the game down for a while but would probably be up for another game or two once the devs finish with it.



Peltonx -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (2/4/2012 10:20:12 PM)

This was agreat AAR to follow as all things were equal.

I know we have disagreed on some things in the past, but you have skills as a Russian player and do know the game.

Take a some time off, but do come back asap.

I look forward to kicking your butt in game until 43 then getting my head handed to me by you on a silver platter.

Good luck in RL.

Pelton



76mm -> RE: GC 76mm (Sov) vs Ketza (No Ketza) (2/5/2012 4:57:46 AM)

heh heh, well lets see about a game in a few months. Ketza is an excellent player, but your style is rather different so a game with you would certainly be a challenge...



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