The trade system needs a rework.[1.5.0.8] (Full Version)

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Foraven -> The trade system needs a rework.[1.5.0.8] (4/15/2011 3:46:06 AM)

While i really like all the improvements so far to the game, there is still one major issue with the game design; trade. More specifically, when we trade techs and other items between empires. It's too easy to exploit, once we start trading that way, we can rip off all other empires of everything of value, gain lots of cash, get tons of techs we no longer need to research, prevent the AI from having a well filled treasury and befriend everyone in the process. The problem is the AI is all too eager to buy everything we have to offer so long as we sell at loss (but who cares, we make tons of cash even if we don't sell at full value). The AI will buy everything, even stuff that empire don't need or could do without. Too easy to get filthy rich while making everyone happy (thus avoid all wars we don't want to fight).

This need to be changed to make the game challenging. For example, races that don't like us should be harder to please and quicker to anger, and showering them with gifts should not make them more eager to spare us if they have the might to crush us. Also, the AI should reserve some of it's money for it's daily expenses and not spend it whenever we have something to sell. And more importantly, the AI should weight the advantage of getting the tech or other stuff we have to sell; if it has equivalent techs, have no need of it or feel it can wrestle it from us, it should not buy. Alternately, should not list everything it has to sell, it should keep the best stuff until we are in really good terms with them, or offer them strategic techs it desperately needs (maybe make the high end techs greyed out until we offer something the AI really wants).

What do you thinks?



bertipa -> RE: The trade system needs a rework.[1.5.0.8] (4/15/2011 9:02:33 AM)

Very well pointed out.

Maybe with the balance that if they really need a tech (like any colonization tech)they could do 'losing trade' themselves.

AI should really try to win and it is not doing it.

Mind well, I know that AI programming is hard and DW is far from bad.

Do you ever played Galactic Civilization 2? There trade is so not balanced that you can win without even colonizing or constructing ships. You just trade in planets and ships from the other players and cultural flip the more expansive ones.

In Civilization trade is exploitable but not at such a degree. Unfortunately in Civ 5 it is almost crippled so the not exploitability translated in "not fun".

And in Civilization I was almost never able to finish a game avoiding a few war.

That does not mean that the endgame of Civilization is less boring. Endgame is really the feeble point of all the strategic games that I know.





Data -> RE: The trade system needs a rework.[1.5.0.8] (4/15/2011 9:19:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bertipa

Endgame is really the feeble point of all the strategic games that I know.


Very true....I guess it also depends when we choose to end it. We can stop before the gruelling boredom comes. But the dev that will make end game fun, or even make an open ended one will have massive success.



bertipa -> RE: The trade system needs a rework.[1.5.0.8] (4/15/2011 9:38:39 AM)

I still mantain that the Shakaturi Grat War is a fantastic idea.

It is from Civilization 3 that I dream of a H.G.Wells martian attack (ot in a later age an Independence Day like attack) to give more life to the endgame. The Shakaturi answered that old dream.



Bingeling -> RE: The trade system needs a rework.[1.5.0.8] (4/15/2011 10:47:53 AM)

One thing that is very wrong in my mind is the value of items in DW. Not that modifying them may not have nasty consequences.

A contested mine is valued at lots of millions. Resource bases in contested areas may be valued at 50M. Sure, that resort base is nice. But a total resort income of 150k is a good value. How many years do you need to collect 100k to gain 50M? 500? How long is this game again?

I can put a contested mining base as an afterthought. If I got a lot of mines (more than two of each), how much is each worth to me? Almost nothing. If it is shot up I can build a new one too. The AI does not build a new one, though.

What are mining bases valued at? Millions? What can you do with millions? Fund a giant fleet and quite a lot of troops for enough force to bash any AI empire in a rather short time.

Again, the AI lacks goals, it does only react. Once I have the basics set with strategic resources, what do I need? Another mine? Only if it is an ultra rare... I can always use some cash (handy if you suddenly 40 more capital ships), and I can always use another tech that is not "dead". And I can need more and better placed fuel sources.

The AI can be exploited through trades, but of course, not doing that is easy for me. A good start for the AI would be to try have some coin on hand so that it can rebuild the spaceports I just killed. Another wise decision would be to wait with rebuilding that space port until war with me is over, or at least until the fleet that just shot the down the old one has left the system.

When I kill their fuel mines, they go half across the galaxy to refuel for ages afterwards. Why are they not building new mines? Probably because I killed most of their constructors too. Why are they not building constructors? Possibly because they are broke due to wasting the money they don't value.

Have you ever noticed the tech trades coming up? Of course, the AI probably accept these, as trade values are good, and the AI hardly loves its cash on hand. Trading tech is a way to gain cash. What does a broke AI do when it has no tech to sell (or nor buyers with money?). They get stuck for eternity with no fuel and poor infrastructure.



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