RE: Sun Tzu...

RE: Sun Tzu... (Full Version)

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition

Message

Shark7 -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/20/2011 10:33:47 PM)
Seems to me the biggest thing with Sun Tzu is that he understood strategy, motivation, and tactics, but more importantly the relationship between them. It takes all three really, strategy without motivated soldiers led by competent tacticians can not win a war, the same can be said of competent leaders and motivated soldiers with a lack of competent strategy. Also: "If you know yourself and know your enemy, one hundred battles one hundred victories; If you know yourself but do not know your enemy, then for every victory you will suffer a loss; If you do not know yourself and do not know your enemy, you will always be defeated." The way I read this is simple, you must know your own strengths and weaknesses as well as the enemy's strengths and weaknesses to attain consistent victory. If one or both of these is missing, you will not be able to capably adapt to the changing battlefield. By knowing both, you can exploit the battlefield, by knowing only your own, you can adapt to the enemy and may still be victorious. If you know neither, you will lose to your own incompetence.

AW1Steve -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/20/2011 10:55:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chickenboy quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Chickenboy quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Chickenboy quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game. Well, disinformation and deception were cornerstones of Sun Tzu's maxims, were they not? So, when you say that you ALWAYS employ these maxims, does that mean that you employ disinformation and deception whenever possible? One could then infer that you employ disinformation to the point that you may truly not employ Sun Tzu's maxims, but yet say that you do as a tip of the cap to the old dude. It's all very confusing. [&:] Much more clear cut in my opinion-the Navy Seals maxim: "Never fight fair!" Hard to argue with that logic. [:D] Just remmber this.....I always lie! [:D] But if I tell you I'm lying???/[&:][:D] Sun Tzu is my patron saint. But also in that chorus is Boyd,Cobert,Jomini,DeGualle (yes, that one) Wyle,Mahan,Douyet,Guderian,Bywater, and even Clauswitz. I collect any books and papers I can on military theory and strategy. Then like any good Chinese menu, one from colum a, and one from colum b...............[:D] I believe that you're lying about your patronage, your collection of books and your selection of theories and dictums from those respective military strategists. Or you're not. Whatever. [:'(] You may peruse them when we hold the often delayed mid west summit. Speaking of which, when is a good time to begin organizing? Snows done here. Springs here. [&:] Sez you. Another 2" this morning...[:(] But, perhaps the warm southern climes of Nebraska ([:D]) are already in a full-throated Spring. I'd still like to drive down there over a three day weekend or something like that. I'll PM you to get the discussion started... Sounds good.

Dobey455 -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/21/2011 5:42:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Dobey Sun Tzu is a charlatan. Try Clausewitz. I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game. Therefore sir (Removes guantlet and strikes Dobey across face). I demand satisfaction! A SHORT (no grand campaigns, I haven't the time) of your choice , and you may select the side. No houserules, except that You must play according to Clausewitz, and I Sun Tzu. So "put your money where you mouth is", as "talk is cheap, and whiskey cost money". And ask yourself, "Do I feel lucky? Well? Do ya, punk?" [:D] Hi Steve, I usually skim through the forums at work so I don't always see every message till the next day. I don't normally have time for PBEM, but there's about 5 days of public holidays coming up as of tomorrow so - sure if you want a "shorty", I'm game. I'll have a quick look at the short scenarios when I get home later today and get back to you.

Shellshock -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/21/2011 6:27:14 AM)
In their book Shattered Sword, authors Parshall and Tully seem to infer that Sun Tzu's tactics may have been Yamamoto's undoing at the battle of Midway. Japanese naval strategy was influenced from it's very inception by Oriental philosophies on the conduct of war, which emphasized the value of deception and indirect approaches. However, at Midway, the Japanese encountered a problem where subtlety was a dangerous luxury. If ever a situation demanded brute concentration of force, Midway was it. By spreading the Japanese fleet over half the Pacific, it just invited defeat in detail, especially when Yamamoto's mail was being read by Nimitz.

LoBaron -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/21/2011 9:45:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shellshock In their book Shattered Sword, authors Parshall and Tully seem to infer that Sun Tzu's tactics may have been Yamamoto's undoing at the battle of Midway. Japanese naval strategy was influenced from it's very inception by Oriental philosophies on the conduct of war, which emphasized the value of deception and indirect approaches. However, at Midway, the Japanese encountered a problem where subtlety was a dangerous luxury. If ever a situation demanded brute concentration of force, Midway was it. By spreading the Japanese fleet over half the Pacific, it just invited defeat in detail, especially when Yamamoto's mail was being read by Nimitz. The undoing of the Japanese at Midway may have been caused by a faulty and incomplete interpretation of Sun Tzu. Sun Tzu does nothing else than provide a more or less complete toolbox, it is still up to the men in command to select the apropriate tools for a specific situation.

AW1Steve -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/21/2011 1:58:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dobey quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Dobey Sun Tzu is a charlatan. Try Clausewitz. I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game. Therefore sir (Removes guantlet and strikes Dobey across face). I demand satisfaction! A SHORT (no grand campaigns, I haven't the time) of your choice , and you may select the side. No houserules, except that You must play according to Clausewitz, and I Sun Tzu. So "put your money where you mouth is", as "talk is cheap, and whiskey cost money". And ask yourself, "Do I feel lucky? Well? Do ya, punk?" [:D] Hi Steve, I usually skim through the forums at work so I don't always see every message till the next day. I don't normally have time for PBEM, but there's about 5 days of public holidays coming up as of tomorrow so - sure if you want a "shorty", I'm game. I'll have a quick look at the short scenarios when I get home later today and get back to you. Accepted, and return PM sent. I'm looking forward to "meeting" on the Coral Sea dueling grounds. [:D]

LoBaron -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/21/2011 2:22:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Dobey quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Dobey Sun Tzu is a charlatan. Try Clausewitz. I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game. Therefore sir (Removes guantlet and strikes Dobey across face). I demand satisfaction! A SHORT (no grand campaigns, I haven't the time) of your choice , and you may select the side. No houserules, except that You must play according to Clausewitz, and I Sun Tzu. So "put your money where you mouth is", as "talk is cheap, and whiskey cost money". And ask yourself, "Do I feel lucky? Well? Do ya, punk?" [:D] Hi Steve, I usually skim through the forums at work so I don't always see every message till the next day. I don't normally have time for PBEM, but there's about 5 days of public holidays coming up as of tomorrow so - sure if you want a "shorty", I'm game. I'll have a quick look at the short scenarios when I get home later today and get back to you. Accepted, and return PM sent. I'm looking forward to "meeting" on the Coral Sea dueling grounds. [:D] What an interesting way to start a PBEM, gentlemen. I expect to see an AAR with a title like: The Art Of War (no Clausewitz please) [:D]

Kwik E Mart -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/21/2011 5:23:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LoBaron quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Dobey quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Dobey Sun Tzu is a charlatan. Try Clausewitz. I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game. Therefore sir (Removes guantlet and strikes Dobey across face). I demand satisfaction! A SHORT (no grand campaigns, I haven't the time) of your choice , and you may select the side. No houserules, except that You must play according to Clausewitz, and I Sun Tzu. So "put your money where you mouth is", as "talk is cheap, and whiskey cost money". And ask yourself, "Do I feel lucky? Well? Do ya, punk?" [:D] Hi Steve, I usually skim through the forums at work so I don't always see every message till the next day. I don't normally have time for PBEM, but there's about 5 days of public holidays coming up as of tomorrow so - sure if you want a "shorty", I'm game. I'll have a quick look at the short scenarios when I get home later today and get back to you. Accepted, and return PM sent. I'm looking forward to "meeting" on the Coral Sea dueling grounds. [:D] What an interesting way to start a PBEM, gentlemen. I expect to see an AAR with a title like: The Art Of War (no Clausewitz please) [:D] East Wind versus Western Gas?

Chickenboy -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/21/2011 7:16:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Dobey quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Dobey Sun Tzu is a charlatan. Try Clausewitz. I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game. Therefore sir (Removes guantlet and strikes Dobey across face). I demand satisfaction! A SHORT (no grand campaigns, I haven't the time) of your choice , and you may select the side. No houserules, except that You must play according to Clausewitz, and I Sun Tzu. So "put your money where you mouth is", as "talk is cheap, and whiskey cost money". And ask yourself, "Do I feel lucky? Well? Do ya, punk?" [:D] Hi Steve, I usually skim through the forums at work so I don't always see every message till the next day. I don't normally have time for PBEM, but there's about 5 days of public holidays coming up as of tomorrow so - sure if you want a "shorty", I'm game. I'll have a quick look at the short scenarios when I get home later today and get back to you. Accepted, and return PM sent. I'm looking forward to "meeting" on the Coral Sea dueling grounds. [:D] Dude...how many times have you played this scenario now?

AW1Steve -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/21/2011 7:30:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chickenboy quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Dobey quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Dobey Sun Tzu is a charlatan. Try Clausewitz. I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game. Therefore sir (Removes guantlet and strikes Dobey across face). I demand satisfaction! A SHORT (no grand campaigns, I haven't the time) of your choice , and you may select the side. No houserules, except that You must play according to Clausewitz, and I Sun Tzu. So "put your money where you mouth is", as "talk is cheap, and whiskey cost money". And ask yourself, "Do I feel lucky? Well? Do ya, punk?" [:D] Hi Steve, I usually skim through the forums at work so I don't always see every message till the next day. I don't normally have time for PBEM, but there's about 5 days of public holidays coming up as of tomorrow so - sure if you want a "shorty", I'm game. I'll have a quick look at the short scenarios when I get home later today and get back to you. Accepted, and return PM sent. I'm looking forward to "meeting" on the Coral Sea dueling grounds. [:D] Dude...how many times have you played this scenario now? As a PBEM? Once or twice. [:D]

Chickenboy -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/21/2011 7:41:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk I'd still put Tzu fu under the title of enlightened common sense rather than anything particularly mind blowing. Telling me that it is wise to keep an enemy off balance is like my dad telling me to brush my teeth before I put my tie on instead of vice-versa . . . good idea but obvious. Having said that, it's still a must read. I agree with this. No way no how could Sun Tzu have forseen the complexities of modern warfare and the interrelationship of combined arms. His greatest contributions were really just enlightened common sense. Speaking of military approaches that were unique to his generalizations is to give too much too much credence to his non-specifics. Just because it's a good idea to eat a meal every now and then doesn't make me a genius for stating the obvious. It was good common sense (e.g., go where he ain't; avoid rushing headlong into a prepared defense; don't broadcast your likely route of advance) to follow some of his basic tenets. Which doesn't take anything away from the guy or his teachings. For what he was then, he was brilliant. Remember that some medieval knights felt 'tactics' such as flank attacks, feints and the like were weaknesses to be avoided-battle should only be joined by a full frontal assault, albeit a gentlemanly one. Clearly they could have used a brush up on military common sense. I believe that his platitudes and generalizations have been supplanted by specifics of combined arms modern warfare in many different ways. Unfortunately, as a species, we have advanced significantly beyond the realm of his expertise and experiences. More recent military strategists probably come closer to hitting the nail on the modern warfare head than Sun Tzu, IMO-his stuff is dated in its scope, scale and applicability.

Chickenboy -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/21/2011 7:41:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Chickenboy quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Dobey quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Dobey Sun Tzu is a charlatan. Try Clausewitz. I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game. Therefore sir (Removes guantlet and strikes Dobey across face). I demand satisfaction! A SHORT (no grand campaigns, I haven't the time) of your choice , and you may select the side. No houserules, except that You must play according to Clausewitz, and I Sun Tzu. So "put your money where you mouth is", as "talk is cheap, and whiskey cost money". And ask yourself, "Do I feel lucky? Well? Do ya, punk?" [:D] Hi Steve, I usually skim through the forums at work so I don't always see every message till the next day. I don't normally have time for PBEM, but there's about 5 days of public holidays coming up as of tomorrow so - sure if you want a "shorty", I'm game. I'll have a quick look at the short scenarios when I get home later today and get back to you. Accepted, and return PM sent. I'm looking forward to "meeting" on the Coral Sea dueling grounds. [:D] Dude...how many times have you played this scenario now? As a PBEM? Once or twice. [:D] Is this more of your Sun Tzu / Navy Seals lies? [:'(]

AW1Steve -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/21/2011 7:45:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chickenboy quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Chickenboy quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Dobey quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Dobey Sun Tzu is a charlatan. Try Clausewitz. I ALWAYS employ Sun Tzu's maxims when I play this game. Therefore sir (Removes guantlet and strikes Dobey across face). I demand satisfaction! A SHORT (no grand campaigns, I haven't the time) of your choice , and you may select the side. No houserules, except that You must play according to Clausewitz, and I Sun Tzu. So "put your money where you mouth is", as "talk is cheap, and whiskey cost money". And ask yourself, "Do I feel lucky? Well? Do ya, punk?" [:D] Hi Steve, I usually skim through the forums at work so I don't always see every message till the next day. I don't normally have time for PBEM, but there's about 5 days of public holidays coming up as of tomorrow so - sure if you want a "shorty", I'm game. I'll have a quick look at the short scenarios when I get home later today and get back to you. Accepted, and return PM sent. I'm looking forward to "meeting" on the Coral Sea dueling grounds. [:D] Dude...how many times have you played this scenario now? As a PBEM? Once or twice. [:D] Is this more of your Sun Tzu / Navy Seals lies? [:'(] Me? Lie? [:(] And that's SEAL (Sea Air And Land). Using the acronym incorrectly, like referring to a "Ex-Marine", is a very good way to get you butt kicked , if any of the interested (and offended) parties are within earshot.[:D]

Chickenboy -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/21/2011 7:52:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve Me? Lie? [:(] And that's SEAL (Sea Air And Land). Using the acronym incorrectly, like referring to a "Ex-Marine", is a very good way to get you butt kicked , if any of the interested (and offended) parties are within earshot.[:D] Ummmm...yes...that would be you. [:'(] Good point on the SEALS acronym thing too. For those SEALs in earshot: Steve told me to write it that way. He's still sore (literally and figuratively) on that whole survival school / paddle to the head bit, so he wanted me to belittle your organization, your esprit de corps and your entire existence. And he thinks your moms have 'extracurricular' earnings. And he wants your sister's phone number to negotiate same with her.

AW1Steve -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/21/2011 7:55:54 PM)
You shouldn't flatter them that way. They like it too much. Besides, we are square. My crew gave them "half" a ride a couple of times.(They took off with us, but ...... found their own way home). [:D]

LoBaron -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/21/2011 9:52:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk I'd still put Tzu fu under the title of enlightened common sense rather than anything particularly mind blowing. Telling me that it is wise to keep an enemy off balance is like my dad telling me to brush my teeth before I put my tie on instead of vice-versa . . . good idea but obvious. Having said that, it's still a must read. Contrary to Chickenboy I disaggree completely, but this is because I view Sun Tzus work in a different context. In the context of our modern world where infomation about any topic of interest is present in abundance, The Art of War, while not proven wrong, is reduced to a huge collection of banalities about how to wage a war or how to do battle. In the context of a book written 500BC, in a time where Europeans were far from contemplating anything remotely at this level of detail and which still is true in its content 2500 years later, The Art of War it is one of the most fascinating reads ever. If somebody does not find this particularily mind blowing I can only wonder what does. [;)]

LoBaron -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/21/2011 10:01:10 PM)
Just to avoid misunderstandings, I think you hit the nail with about everything you said, except that you agree with anarchyintheuk... [:D]

Chickenboy -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/21/2011 10:16:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LoBaron quote: ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk I'd still put Tzu fu under the title of enlightened common sense rather than anything particularly mind blowing. Telling me that it is wise to keep an enemy off balance is like my dad telling me to brush my teeth before I put my tie on instead of vice-versa . . . good idea but obvious. Having said that, it's still a must read. Contrary to Chickenboy I disaggree completely, but this is because I view Sun Tzus work in a different context. In the context of our modern world where infomation about any topic of interest is present in abundance, The Art of War, while not proven wrong, is reduced to a huge collection of banalities about how to wage a war or how to do battle. In the context of a book written 500BC, in a time where Europeans were far from contemplating anything remotely at this level of detail and which still is true in its content 2500 years later, The Art of War it is one of the most fascinating reads ever. If somebody does not find this particularily mind blowing I can only wonder what does. [;)] In the context of a book written 500BC, it was a phenomenal revelation. I believe I stated that. However, it has aged and its modern application and primacy are in question. No-not for the vagaries, generalities and concepts, which are still valid in that context-but for application to modern warfare. It's akin to reading the Old Testament of The Holy Bible (in it's original aramaic, of course)-a fine text and language for its day-and using that world-changing text's interpretations on whether to immolate one's target with ICBMs or JDAMs from stealth bombers. Modern warfare and combined arms make a mockery out of the simplistic generalizations implicit in Sun Tzu's work. I doubt many of the pre-combined arms crowd of military strategists have stood up well either for that matter. The most brilliant military strategists are those professors of the art that can use what has been learned from old and new and build on those lessons moving forward, developing a new form of warfare. Here, Guderian springs to mind as an example. Lastly, how do you know how these ideas were perceived in 500BC? Know anyone from that era? Read any NY Times book reviews from 500BC critiquing this book? For all we know, everyone outside of this kingdom may have thought that these writings was commensical and banal at the time too. The fact that we find Sun Tzu's writings revolutionary with our modern views of ancient times doesn't mean that those perspectives were shared by the ancients.

Chickenboy -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/21/2011 10:20:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LoBaron Just to avoid misunderstandings, I think you hit the nail with about everything you said, except that you agree with anarchyintheuk... [:D] Oh, I see....[:D]

AW1Steve -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/21/2011 11:58:53 PM)
Nuff of the nonsense. If Sun works for you, then use him. If he doesn't, lose him. The proof is in the victory. If you lose, then one of you , or both are wrong. If you win, then one of you, or both are right. He's a tool. If you've got only one tool in your tool box, you've got a bigger problem then Sun Tzu. You are a one trick pony. If you have a parthenon of military theorist in your tool box, then the next trick is which tool for which job. That's called generalship (or admiralship). People go to school and practice their whole lives to get good at it. Blaming Sun Tzu for a defeat is like blaming a hammer for a badly built house. While it might contribute, the real problem is the guy using it. All I can say is Sun works for me (I particularly like the James Clavel version.....it's the simplest). So do a whole bunch of other theorist. I belive in a well filled and chosen toolbox.

fcharton -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/22/2011 12:46:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chickenboy Lastly, how do you know how these ideas were perceived in 500BC? Know anyone from that era? Read any NY Times book reviews from 500BC critiquing this book? For all we know, everyone outside of this kingdom may have thought that these writings was commensical and banal at the time too. The fact that we find Sun Tzu's writings revolutionary with our modern views of ancient times doesn't mean that those perspectives were shared by the ancients. The fact that the book survived, was quoted, commented, and considered a classic for more than 2000 years constitues a proof. Also, the biography of Sun Wu, compiled several centuries later by Sima Qian, present him as a very unconventional general. He offers his services to a semi barbarian kingdom, proves his competence to the king by organising a battle with his concubines, and then is depicted as the mastermind of a very strange winter naval operation against Chu (modern Changsha). Whether Sun Wu actually existed is unclear (historians have debated this for a long time), but his biography certainly reflects the opinion later historians (notably Sima Qian, in the 1st century BC) had of his works. Francois

AW1Steve -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/22/2011 9:02:43 PM)
Just an update on the "Duel in the Coral Sea over Sun Tzu" (the working name till someone can suggest a better name) is agreed upon. I'll do an AAR from my point of view. Now if anyone can suggest a link so that I can install a version of the game with update "c" I'd be most gratefull! [&o]

Chickenboy -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/22/2011 9:04:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve Just an update on the "Duel in the Coral Sea over Sun Tzu" (the working name till someone can suggest a better name) is agreed upon. I'll do an AAR from my point of view. Now if anyone can suggest a link so that I can install a version of the game with update "c" I'd be most gratefull! [&o] I've a proposed title for your AAR: "Sun Tzu Coral Sea: 16th time's a charm!" [:'(]

AW1Steve -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/22/2011 9:23:12 PM)
You know CB, outside of playing the AI , I think I've probably played this 8 times.And two of those were in the tournament. I've played The Thousand mile war a lot more. If someone would write another scenario as short as Coral Sea, I'd certainly play it. But there is only what? Three short scenarios? Stuart asked for this scenario, as he didn't have time for the other two.

The Gnome -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/22/2011 10:40:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve You shouldn't flatter them that way. They like it too much. Besides, we are square. My crew gave them "half" a ride a couple of times.(They took off with us, but ...... found their own way home). [:D] Just GREAT. I snarfed my coffee when reading this, is it some sneaky SEAL interrogation method? I know, I know, you can't tell me or I will get killed with a rusty spoon.

AW1Steve -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/22/2011 11:03:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: The Gnome quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve You shouldn't flatter them that way. They like it too much. Besides, we are square. My crew gave them "half" a ride a couple of times.(They took off with us, but ...... found their own way home). [:D] Just GREAT. I snarfed my coffee when reading this, is it some sneaky SEAL interrogation method? I know, I know, you can't tell me or I will get killed with a rusty spoon. No, actually we were their dropship for a parachute drop. [:D]

Chickenboy -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/22/2011 11:06:41 PM)
From a P-3? How'd that go?

AW1Steve -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/22/2011 11:15:36 PM)
Actually very well. SEAL frequently jump from P-3's. They told me that they like the fact that it's impossible to hit anything on the way out. (The tailplane is high and well out of the way). And they are trained to jump out of just about any airplane that it's capable of.[:)]

RUPD3658 -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/23/2011 9:43:45 PM)
Clausewitz may have been a good tactician but Sun Tzu had a better recipie for chicken (or was that General Tso?)[:D]

AW1Steve -> RE: Sun Tzu... (4/24/2011 3:57:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RUPD3658 Clausewitz may have been a good tactician but Sun Tzu had a better recipie for chicken (or was that General Tso?)[:D] I'm always looking for good chicken recipes![:D]

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>

Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.71875