RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (Full Version)

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Flaviusx -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/4/2011 3:20:13 PM)

Yes, the Wehrmacht is way way way too far forward north of the Pripyet. You desperately need to shorten your lines and create reserves.

I'd be wary about a huge withdrawal down south, though. What you need to do more of is gradual step by step withdrawals, always looking ahead to the next fallback line, and avoid getting bagged.

Once the Soviet forces Romanian surrender, things blow up down there. You really want to put that off as long as possible.



krupp_88mm -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/4/2011 3:47:34 PM)

the terrain in the south is clear and looks like he does want to attack there, is it possible you can start giving ground in the north and withdraw an army to the south as a reserve, i would worry alot more about him breaking out in thee south than the north



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/7/2011 9:06:31 PM)

Turn 162. July 20th 1944. Sorry for the delay in reporting, there seems to have been some kind of commotion at Fuhrer headquarters.

Fortress Dnepropetrovsk has fallen, and 6 divisions have surrendered. Not as bad as it might seem as a division is around 4000 men, and a couple of them were Hungarian, but still...

The front is under heavy pressure from Kalinin down south.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/F082A8B325004389BE2D5D7C82C5F8E4.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/7/2011 9:08:46 PM)

Yes, a withdrawal in the North is definitely a good idea. There are fortified positions along the Neva and north of the Ladoga, as well as along the major river lines. Not that forts seem to have all that much effect, I really doubt if it is worth tying down manpower in digging them, as they are immediately blown away when the enemy reach them.


[image]local://upfiles/37384/DFA46ECB9FA44AF8A14A825674AC2B5E.jpg[/image]



Flaviusx -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/7/2011 10:03:21 PM)

Disband the fort units when the enemy approaches and you've got them occupied by other units. And dial down their TOE to 50%.



Baelfiin -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/8/2011 1:26:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Disband the fort units when the enemy approaches and you've got them occupied by other units. And dial down their TOE to 50%.

Yep. It would be nice if you could merge those fort units into foot infantry units though ....



Flaviusx -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/8/2011 3:04:05 AM)

That's actually a rule change I could get behind, Baelfin.



karonagames -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/8/2011 9:30:00 AM)

quote:

That's actually a rule change I could get behind, Baelfin.


+1



ComradeP -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/8/2011 11:43:38 AM)

I doubt that would be historical. The amount of fortress zones the Axis tend to create is ahistorical to begin with.



karonagames -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/8/2011 11:48:27 AM)

quote:

The amount of fortress zones the Axis tend to create is ahistorical to begin with.


This has only been forced on players due to the new entrenchment rules - I can't tell if lvl2 entrenchements in the rear is going to be enough with the +1 bonus removed.



Baelfiin -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/8/2011 12:27:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

I doubt that would be historical. The amount of fortress zones the Axis tend to create is ahistorical to begin with.


You can't dig in anymore unless you start way ahead of time.

Plus you NEED those fort units to get up to level 3 and 4.



Baelfiin -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/8/2011 12:33:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

That's actually a rule change I could get behind, Baelfin.


Yeah the only element thats different in the ToE's are the labor squads. I have no idea how hard it would be to code or to implement.



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/8/2011 8:57:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

I doubt that would be historical. The amount of fortress zones the Axis tend to create is ahistorical to begin with.


I am not so sure about that. The Germans did use volountary or forced labor to dig extensive field works, though I must admit I am uncertain as to what extent it would have in game terms.



ComradeP -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/9/2011 10:38:57 AM)

Forced labour that was afterwards not just absorbed by a nearby infantry division, which is what Baelfiin is proposing.

If there's anything the first year of WitE as a released game has shown, it's that one (arbitrary) rule to fix the problems of another rule is a bad way to balance the game. It shouldn't even be considered. You either fix the first rule, or remove it. You don't add another rule to compensate for the problems of the first.



Peltonx -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/9/2011 1:25:23 PM)

If you with draw asap 20 hexs in the north his railheads will be to far from the front and his units will be out of supply. This will give your units time to gain back some TOE and dig.

Making a big withdrawal right before mud hits is the best time. No hex on map is safe because hes got tons of planes, guns and sappers. So I would not bother with strong points as per the last 50 turns.

You need to change over to delaying tactics, conserve your manpower, because once he gets you under 2.3 million men things will fall appart very very quickly.

Pelton



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/9/2011 6:06:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Forced labour that was afterwards not just absorbed by a nearby infantry division, which is what Baelfiin is proposing.

If there's anything the first year of WitE as a released game has shown, it's that one (arbitrary) rule to fix the problems of another rule is a bad way to balance the game. It shouldn't even be considered. You either fix the first rule, or remove it. You don't add another rule to compensate for the problems of the first.



Sounds reasonable! Forts are a bit underpowered now in my impression. They take too long to build, but it also seems to me the Soviets can build whatever they need in sappers and artillery, so they are not really bothered by forts.



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/9/2011 6:09:07 PM)

Turn 163. July 27 1944.

Soviet pressure is growing in the central sector, and the German line is bending westwards. I still have some mobile formations that can counterattack his spearheads, but they are growing fewer and weaker. Soviet heavy formations are cutting through my weakened infantry like hot knives through butter.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/E7893C1BFBF6485488598F8CF2A7BFFC.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/9/2011 6:14:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

If you with draw asap 20 hexs in the north his railheads will be to far from the front and his units will be out of supply. This will give your units time to gain back some TOE and dig.


Yes, but I am not really under pressure up north at all, and the Finns are in reasonable shape and holding a line that is at least twice as long as the minimum north of Ladoga + Leningrad front, and I am not in any danger of being encircled up there, so right now I think a big retreat up north would actually free up more Soviet units than Axis. I am bending back north of Moscow, but only to the extent of keeping my Northern front aligned on the Center.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/E5773152286241CDAE1DF585B570327A.jpg[/image]



Flaviusx -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/9/2011 6:32:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Forced labour that was afterwards not just absorbed by a nearby infantry division, which is what Baelfiin is proposing.

If there's anything the first year of WitE as a released game has shown, it's that one (arbitrary) rule to fix the problems of another rule is a bad way to balance the game. It shouldn't even be considered. You either fix the first rule, or remove it. You don't add another rule to compensate for the problems of the first.



Sounds reasonable! Forts are a bit underpowered now in my impression. They take too long to build, but it also seems to me the Soviets can build whatever they need in sappers and artillery, so they are not really bothered by forts.


This is true for both sides, Tarhunnas. We solved the fort spam problem. But we may have created new problems in doing so. It's extremely difficult to get forts up in a timely fashion, particularly during inclement weather -- and with engineering support they may as well not even exist anyways. The Soviets infamously spam their sapper units, but the Germans too have more than enough pioneers to load up their spearhead armies and crash through level 2s as if they weren't there. (At least in clear. Level 2 forts in bad terrain are noticeably more effective.) So things are rough right now for the defending side generally, whoever that is. And the fact that rivers do not disrupt engineering SUs committed to battle by reserve doesn't help, either.




gingerbread -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/9/2011 7:14:18 PM)

To which can be added that engineering values are not affected when a Hasty is morphed to a scouting attack. I'm surprised that we have not seen that used systematically to crack hexes, but maybe it's not needed.



IdahoNYer -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/9/2011 8:44:29 PM)

I wouldn't pull back to fast near Leningrad either. The Volkov River (with swamps) and the Valdai Hills are slow go ground which will kill lots of Russians if they press here. And it will be slow go.

Fortify the land bridge two or three deep. This area and up toward Veliki Luki are the avenues for a rapid Soviet attack north of the Pripet.

He's not going to go through the marshes, just a question of where he's going to push harder, north or south of the marshes.






Flaviusx -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/9/2011 8:51:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer

I wouldn't pull back to fast near Leningrad either. The Volkov River (with swamps) and the Valdai Hills are slow go ground which will kill lots of Russians if they press here. And it will be slow go.

Fortify the land bridge two or three deep. This area and up toward Veliki Luki are the avenues for a rapid Soviet attack north of the Pripet.

He's not going to go through the marshes, just a question of where he's going to push harder, north or south of the marshes.



The only way the Axis can get reserves is by shortening the line. If the Axis insist on staying this far forward up north, I would merely pile on everything in the south, obliterate that, and eventually bypass the entire northern concentration of forces by marching into Poland from the Ukraine. I'll also collect a Romanian surrender and a crack up in the Axis Balkan position generally.

The north is a sideshow. It's also potentially the largest self sustaining POW camp for the Wehrmacht.

He needs to pull back. A lot.



ComradeP -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/9/2011 9:18:19 PM)

The problem with the north is that if you retreat to a shorter line (Narva, south to Pskov and south to the Daugava river) that there isn't a lot of terrain to hide behind and that there's a lot of clear terrain.

Attacking in the Ukraine is great because of all the clear terrain, there is however a very large "but": attacking from the Ukraine into Poland is less great, as there are not all that many clear hexes that really get you anywhere in the area.

If resistance in the south stiffens because reinforcements are transferred there from the north, and the Axis pullback, I might actually be inclined to move a large amount of mobile forces to the Baltic states and see if I can get to Koenigsberg. The Soviets can move forces along interior lines using rail movement much faster than the Axis can. You could even make a push, wait for the Axis to move reinforcements there and then move your own mobile units back to the Ukraine again. Few people think out of the box when faced with a determined defense, they don't think about moving forces to where the enemy is weak but prefer to move in more forces.

That's why defending forward in the north is not a bad defensive strategy per se, even if it requires more troops. To be honest however, I don't think a credible defense of the Baltic states up to the Daugava can be done with anything less than the 3 armies he has deployed in much better defensive terrain currently.



IdahoNYer -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/9/2011 11:15:58 PM)

Flaviux - Agreed you can't hold on forever, thats not the issue. Its a question of WHEN to pull out - what should trigger the withdrawal off the Volkov Line, what trigger to leave Leningrad to the Finns etc. In the meantime, you can pull burnt out divisions off the line where the Soviet is pressing and place them up in the Valdai Hills area to refit. This will free up divisions to the main fight.

As far as triggers go - In the South, one is the Soviets crossing the Dneipr between Cherkassy and Kiev - time to think about pulling out of the Dniepr Bend. The Pripet is a great barrier. Use it.
In the Center, if the Soviets push to Vitebsk, yes, time to pull back in the north toward Riga.

Of course, its all a matter of timing. And I'm certainly not the best judge of that having just lost an army in my PBEM.....



Flaviusx -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/10/2011 12:07:40 AM)

Now would be a good time. Let the Soviet waste the entire summer of 44 up north chasing ghosts and maybe chewing a bit on Leningrad. If the German can stabilize his line at, say, Riga and the Dvina come mud, he's doing splendidly imo. That's still a long ways from Berlin and the clock is ticking. It's also a much shorter line. The reserves thus created can help down south where things are becoming critical -- this is where the war is being decided.

It's all about beating the clock here.



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/11/2011 7:47:43 AM)

The Dvina line is not much shorter, and as several people have pointed out, terrain is much more favorable for the defense farther east. The Soviets are not attacking up north now anyway, so retreating now is just giving them a lot of ground for free. I have no doubt I will have to retreat there sooner or later, but the time is not now IMO.



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/11/2011 7:50:26 AM)

Turn 164. August 3 1944.

Another little mishap in the Dnepr bend. I no longer have the forces to free encircled groups, and my weak lines makes it easier for the Soviets to surround pockets here and there.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/2DF3910DA8C74EE08BD4A4418D710B92.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/11/2011 8:00:05 AM)

Here is an overview of the enire front turn 164.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/3FC15A86B23A45B483AE1BEBCBD0F893.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/11/2011 8:06:07 AM)

And here is OOB and losses Turn 164.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/9FBC2F6F197F4BC8829564AA8FC0B5DD.jpg[/image]



Tarhunnas -> RE: 1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids) (12/11/2011 8:10:50 AM)

Production turn 164. The extra armaments ar long gone, and it is interesting to note that I am already building up a manpower surplus again. It appears that German armaments production is still below where it should be.

[image]local://upfiles/37384/6FB1A0C9017D474FA03C24ED3D2E3DC3.jpg[/image]



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