RE: Partisans v.1.04.11

RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (Full Version)

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ussdefiant -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/1/2011 3:18:34 AM)
myself playing the Soviets usually, i think the amount of partisan units generated by surrundered Sov units was yanked up quite too high by the 1.04 betas. Prior, i got 3-6 battalions forming on a typical Turn 2 after the AI clears out the pockets it forms around Minsk on turn one, but now i see 10-13 battalions on my last couple of turn 2 runs, which seems to me to be a bit much. The prior generation rate with the help of the fixed air drops of supplies seems rather more appropiates.

Helpless -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/1/2011 7:24:22 AM)
quote: i think the amount of partisan units generated by surrundered Sov units was yanked up quite too high by the 1.04 betas Yes, I found a bug with it. Thanks for bringing it up.

sillyflower -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/1/2011 8:03:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: redmarkus4 I think the solution is actually to further abstract the whole thing. Since we can't command the partisan units directly, let's just remove them from the map and have a basic requirement to garrison given locations (cities, rail lines every n hexes or regions). Then a random chance factor can cause a rail line break in n hexes each turn, modified by the proximity of in-supply regular Soviet units, to reflect corresponding increases in partisan activity. Rail repair should then occur automatically, again based on a die roll, and without the need to move a whole FDB unit to the spot. Most repair would in any case have been carried out by the local civilian maintenance teams who ran the railway in peacetime. Given that roads and bridges (!) are not represented as discrete game objects, the other desirable features of the logistic model are rendered irrelevant. Seems good idea to me

James Ward -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/1/2011 7:44:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: redmarkus4 I think the solution is actually to further abstract the whole thing. Since we can't command the partisan units directly, let's just remove them from the map and have a basic requirement to garrison given locations (cities, rail lines every n hexes or regions). Then a random chance factor can cause a rail line break in n hexes each turn, modified by the proximity of in-supply regular Soviet units, to reflect corresponding increases in partisan activity. Rail repair should then occur automatically, again based on a die roll, and without the need to move a whole FDB unit to the spot. Most repair would in any case have been carried out by the local civilian maintenance teams who ran the railway in peacetime. Given that roads and bridges (!) are not represented as discrete game objects, the other desirable features of the logistic model are rendered irrelevant. I agree, it should be abstracted. Maybe if garrisons were not maintained then the amount of suppy, replacements and rail capacity could be reduced by some percentage. This gives the Germans an incentive to maintian garrisions without creating a whole sub game of chasing partisan units and repairing rail lines.

Redmarkus5 -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/1/2011 10:50:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: James Ward I agree, it should be abstracted. Maybe if garrisons were not maintained then the amount of suppy, replacements and rail capacity could be reduced by some percentage. This gives the Germans an incentive to maintian garrisions without creating a whole sub game of chasing partisan units and repairing rail lines. Excellent idea. If they really wanted to abstract this and allow players to focus on combat, there would be a garrison 'holding box', similar to the National Reserve for the Air Force and you would simply place the required number of units there.

Redmarkus5 -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/2/2011 6:04:07 PM)
Turn 34 - Version 1.04.14 This is the first example I have seen of a really excessive partisan action - 13 rail hexes attacked by two partisan units in a single turn when all nearby cities are fully garrisoned. [image]local://upfiles/27287/FCAA5605EEBC4896ABC3FC861939A1EE.jpg[/image]

sillyflower -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/2/2011 6:24:50 PM)
Attacks looks suspiciously well co-ordinated with the other attacks

kswanson1 -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/2/2011 8:19:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: redmarkus4 Turn 34 - Version 1.04.14 This is the first example I have seen of a really excessive partisan action - 13 rail hexes attacked by two partisan units in a single turn when all nearby cities are fully garrisoned. OUCH! That's just a bit over the top. I love how the rail attacks follow right behind the FBD unit. The detonator symbols near Toropez look they are occuring in the same hexes as German units. are those combat units? After seeing that image, yeah I think I'd vote for Partisan Abstraction. That's five turns worth of repair for the FBD. Picture that same result 20 or 30-hexes away from the nearest FBD. Now your talking an entire section of the front being isolated for a month and a half while the FBD marches back to the breaks and than starts slowly repairing the tracks. On a completely different not, I Love the minor city names thingie your using. Where can I find that?

JAMiAM -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/2/2011 8:39:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kswanson1 The detonator symbols near Toropez look they are occuring in the same hexes as German units. are those combat units? My guess is that those are the construction battalions automatically assigned by HQs to do repair. They often will start the repairs on the just broken rails, and if the damage in the hex was low enough, have it fully repaired in the first part of the logistics phase. Of course, there are plenty of times where the autobots just don't get to the main line supplying a third of your army, your FBDs are beyond the cuts, it's mud and you're completely screwed for several turns...[;)]

kswanson1 -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/2/2011 8:53:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JAMiAM quote: ORIGINAL: kswanson1 The detonator symbols near Toropez look they are occuring in the same hexes as German units. are those combat units? My guess is that those are the construction battalions automatically assigned by HQs to do repair. They often will start the repairs on the just broken rails, and if the damage in the hex was low enough, have it fully repaired in the first part of the logistics phase. Of course, there are plenty of times where the autobots just don't get to the main line supplying a third of your army, your FBDs are beyond the cuts, it's mud and you're completely screwed for several turns...[;)] unfortunately -- and I know this from direct experiance of the partisan tsunami -- it still costs an FBD unit 3-MPs to repair Partisan breaks. That's even when the break damage is only 10% or whatever. Has anyone tested to see if breaks are occuring within the ZOC of combat units? Can we get battalion break downs for German infantry or something. Can we also get all those weirdo sub-regimental sized anti-partisan units the germans used during the war but that arent depicted in the game. This boo-boo needs some counter balancing. It's a game ruiner and unless your playing the Germans in PBEM right now you really dont get a sense for just how bad this makes the Germans supply situation.

kswanson1 -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/2/2011 8:58:16 PM)
How about rolling this aspect of the code back to the previous build until this issue can be tested and resolved?

pompack -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/3/2011 12:24:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kswanson1 quote: ORIGINAL: JAMiAM quote: ORIGINAL: kswanson1 The detonator symbols near Toropez look they are occuring in the same hexes as German units. are those combat units? My guess is that those are the construction battalions automatically assigned by HQs to do repair. They often will start the repairs on the just broken rails, and if the damage in the hex was low enough, have it fully repaired in the first part of the logistics phase. Of course, there are plenty of times where the autobots just don't get to the main line supplying a third of your army, your FBDs are beyond the cuts, it's mud and you're completely screwed for several turns...[;)] unfortunately -- and I know this from direct experiance of the partisan tsunami -- it still costs an FBD unit 3-MPs to repair Partisan breaks. That's even when the break damage is only 10% or whatever. Has anyone tested to see if breaks are occuring within the ZOC of combat units? Can we get battalion break downs for German infantry or something. Can we also get all those weirdo sub-regimental sized anti-partisan units the germans used during the war but that arent depicted in the game. This boo-boo needs some counter balancing. It's a game ruiner and unless your playing the Germans in PBEM right now you really dont get a sense for just how bad this makes the Germans supply situation. I have found that breaks occur adjacent to combat units. While I have found breaks that occur in a hex occupied by a HQ, I have not seen a break in the hex occupied by a combat unit. I have never seen a partisan in the ZOC of a combat unit but I have seen them adjacent to HQ units. All in 1.04

Joel Billings -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/3/2011 2:11:00 AM)
A fix for the problem should be out later today or tomorrow.

Redmarkus5 -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/3/2011 7:31:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Joel Billings A fix for the problem should be out later today or tomorrow. Fantastic news! Thanks Joel.

Redmarkus5 -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/3/2011 7:40:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wild quote: ORIGINAL: redmarkus4 quote: ORIGINAL: kswanson1 quote: ORIGINAL: pompack OTOH, the fact that you can only repair multiple breaks by going all the way back to the first remaining active rail hex is a killer. I can kind of see a rationale for not allowing conversion at the end of a broken link, but not allowing repair by FDBs makes things very difficult. With an FDB 20 hexes away from a break, we are talking either a month to get the FDB to the repair point or waiting for the repair robots to teleport back and decide to work on the breaks instead of converting along the Estonian coast five hundred miles from the front or digging trenches at the front that can't be held because everyone is out of supply. The only way I see to combat this is to hold an FDB back at Warsaw ready to move forward to repair a break. And hope that the next turn it isn't cut off by a new break. Agreed. You have hit one of the issues right on the head. And this issue and its implications doesnt become apparent until you are actually faced with it in game. Allow repair to occur from both sides of the break. It's not like there wouldn't be locomotives and rolling stock available on both sides of a break that could rapidly transport rail road repair crews, their equipment and construction materials to the break points. I'm facing the same issue in two of my PBEMs and am seriously considering resigning. I don't want to as I have invested a huge amount of time into both games. I also dont want to leave my opponents hanging. hmmm... I think the solution is actually to further abstract the whole thing. Since we can't command the partisan units directly, let's just remove them from the map and have a basic requirement to garrison given locations (cities, rail lines every n hexes or regions). Then a random chance factor can cause a rail line break in n hexes each turn, modified by the proximity of in-supply regular Soviet units, to reflect corresponding increases in partisan activity. Rail repair should then occur automatically, again based on a die roll, and without the need to move a whole FDB unit to the spot. Most repair would in any case have been carried out by the local civilian maintenance teams who ran the railway in peacetime. Given that roads and bridges (!) are not represented as discrete game objects, the other desirable features of the logistic model are rendered irrelevant. I am tempted to agree with Redmarkus on this. Being a supporter of historicity in the game it is not easy, but what he say's makes sense. After all, who wants to spend the game chasing partisans around, and a break in your main rail line completely takes the focus off your offensive to something i'm sure most people are not interested in (chasing partisans and restoring supply). I can see this turning off many people and being a detriment to the game overall as people will get frustrated and quit playing. Which will hurt sales of the planned upcoming War in the West and War in North Afrika. Thereby putting in danger of my dream game War in Europe. I am coming to the conclusion that we must have some abstraction to keep the game fun, for the good of the overall planned project. I thought that the next release would cover both the West and Russia?

Redmarkus5 -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/3/2011 7:42:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kswanson1 quote: ORIGINAL: redmarkus4 Turn 34 - Version 1.04.14 This is the first example I have seen of a really excessive partisan action - 13 rail hexes attacked by two partisan units in a single turn when all nearby cities are fully garrisoned. OUCH! That's just a bit over the top. I love how the rail attacks follow right behind the FBD unit. The detonator symbols near Toropez look they are occuring in the same hexes as German units. are those combat units? After seeing that image, yeah I think I'd vote for Partisan Abstraction. That's five turns worth of repair for the FBD. Picture that same result 20 or 30-hexes away from the nearest FBD. Now your talking an entire section of the front being isolated for a month and a half while the FBD marches back to the breaks and than starts slowly repairing the tracks. On a completely different not, I Love the minor city names thingie your using. Where can I find that? That's my mod ;) now taken over by BCGames (forum member) and it can be downloaded here: http://witewiki.com/index.php/Download_Mod You may want to wait a while as BC is going to fix some errors and possibly add Captain B's town sizes layer, so the mod will take some big steps forward and it is a big download which you'll have to repeat.

kswanson1 -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/3/2011 3:35:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: redmarkus4 That's my mod ;) now taken over by BCGames (forum member) and it can be downloaded here: http://witewiki.com/index.php/Download_Mod You may want to wait a while as BC is going to fix some errors and possibly add Captain B's town sizes layer, so the mod will take some big steps forward and it is a big download which you'll have to repeat. You're very talented. Thanks for the tip. I saw bcgames is also working on a Korsun Pocket scenario for WITE. It looks like it will be a great addition to the current scenario list. Smaller and shorter than the host of 1941 "Road To" scenarios. It should give players a taste of late war WITE without having to dedicate the amount of time required to crank through a GC. I'd like to see more of these sorts of smaller scenarios. Maybe if my interest stays fixed on this game for a while and I dont meander back to my HPS PBEMs, I'll give the WITE editor a go.

kswanson1 -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/3/2011 6:22:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pompack I have found that breaks occur adjacent to combat units. While I have found breaks that occur in a hex occupied by a HQ, I have not seen a break in the hex occupied by a combat unit. I have never seen a partisan in the ZOC of a combat unit but I have seen them adjacent to HQ units. All in 1.04 thanks for the info Pompack. I guess that means every bloody rail hex would need to be garrisoned by a German combat unit to keep it from getting demo'd by partisans. That�s likely to mean allotting several infantry corps per vital supply line to keep large portions of your front from becoming isolated for long periods of time. A rather implausible solution given how thinly stretched the Axis become as they go deeper into the widening funnel of Russia. Even if\when a reduction in the Partisan unit activation occurs from code tweaking, the repair of partially demolished tracks � IMHO � should also be looked at. The A.I. controlled rail repair support units need to be much more proactive about converging quickly upon breaks that occur to strategically important supply routes. These units are too intent upon their work on unimportant track gauge conversion. Granted, their busy work will eventually reduce the ability of Partisans to isolate huge chunks of the German front via creating redundancy in the Axis track network. In 1941 there is no redundancy in the German track network. There are a couple railroad threads that precariously supply everything. Cut them via partisan activity near the Polish boarder and the German logistics situation is screwed for a month plus. I keep saying this in my posts because its a rather critical aspect of this entire issue. MP costs for player controlled FBD units repairing limited damage (low damge percentile) track hexes should be reduced. Why does it cost the same amount of FBD MPs to repair a track with 10% damage from a partisan attack as it does to conduct a repair on a 100% damaged track? FBD units should be able to fix low percentile damaged track hexes from either side of the break. They shouldn't have to march back on foot to the west side of a break before they can start fixing low percentile breaks. I see the logic in making the Axis repair and gauge convert track west to east when the tracks are at a 100% state of damage. This because of the large amounts of material requirements for these big repairs. I don�t see the logic in making an FBD unit having to go west to east when chasing down low percentile track damage from Partisan attacks. I'd argue that there would be locomotives and rolling stock available on either side of a partisan break for transportation of repair materials and FBD units to the point of the break. By the same token, player controlled FBD units should be able to move rapidly back to partisan breaks to initiate repairs. They could in theroy move along undamaged tracks by train regardless if these are still directly connected to the western rail net. The 2 and 3 week long Bataan Death March by an FBD unit to get from Veliki Luki to fix a break\s that�s west of Dubno or Minsk is excessive. If we don�t buy the locomotives and rolling stock on either side of a Partisan break arguement, can we do temporary motorization of FBD units in the game at something less the exorbitant AP costs for doing the same to an infantry division? Or increase the movement point allowance of an FBD unit, and increase the movement cost of gauge conversion and track repair at the same proportion. This would give the player controlled FBD units the ability move around the map a bit quicker, but would not increase their ability to conduct gauge conversion.

Redmarkus5 -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/3/2011 6:24:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kswanson1 quote: ORIGINAL: redmarkus4 That's my mod ;) now taken over by BCGames (forum member) and it can be downloaded here: http://witewiki.com/index.php/Download_Mod You may want to wait a while as BC is going to fix some errors and possibly add Captain B's town sizes layer, so the mod will take some big steps forward and it is a big download which you'll have to repeat. You're very talented. Thanks for the tip. I saw bcgames is also working on a Korsun Pocket scenario for WITE. It looks like it will be a great addition to the current scenario list. Smaller and shorter than the host of 1941 "Road To" scenarios. It should give players a taste of late war WITE without having to dedicate the amount of time required to crank through a GC. I'd like to see more of these sorts of smaller scenarios. Maybe if my interest stays fixed on this game for a while and I dont meander back to my HPS PBEMs, I'll give the WITE editor a go. Thanks. Good - we need more scenarios like that. What HPS titles do you have? I own Chancellorsville, Gettysburg, Waterloo and PC Smolensk '41 (but I could never get into that last one). I'll play you PBEM, if you like.

Redmarkus5 -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/3/2011 6:25:52 PM)
Check the latest beta patch - it's supposed to fix the partisan issues. Members downloads...

kswanson1 -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/3/2011 6:34:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: redmarkus4 Check the latest beta patch - it's supposed to fix the partisan issues. Members downloads... It probably reduces the numbers of Partisans that get activated. But I doubt it addresses the logistics of keeping rail lines open. Thats what I keep harping on with my lengthy postings. There are a number of logical disconnects in rail repair that will continue to create the same issues for the Germans even after Partisan head counts are reduced.

kswanson1 -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/3/2011 6:42:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: redmarkus4 Thanks. Good - we need more scenarios like that. What HPS titles do you have? I own Chancellorsville, Gettysburg, Waterloo and PC Smolensk '41 (but I could never get into that last one). I'll play you PBEM, if you like. Tobruk 41 is a favorite. Crusader is such an excellent topic for wargaming, particuarly at the game scale portrayed in HPS Panzer Campaigns. It's not a swamp of units like Typhoon or Kharkov or the like. Tobruk provides excellent gristle for both sides in terms of offense and defense. http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/products/PZC/PZC_tobruk/panzer_campaigns_tobruk_41.htm I've also wanted to try El Alamein in PBEM. The Gazala aspect of the game, as I think it also provides a great deal of attack and defense options for both sides of the coin. http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/products/PZC/PZC_ELAL/elal.html

Redmarkus5 -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/3/2011 7:27:12 PM)
Ah... HPS WW2 games have not really grabbed my attention. Somehow, I find the HPS approach better suited to Napoleonics and the Civil War...

kswanson1 -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/3/2011 9:16:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: redmarkus4 Ah... HPS WW2 games have not really grabbed my attention. Somehow, I find the HPS approach better suited to Napoleonics and the Civil War... yeah -- Borodino is good as is Waterloo. I have both laying around here somewheres -- burried in a box in the Garage I suspect. I dont recall every buying any of their Civil War Games, but wouldnt hesitate to if the American Civil War bug ever bites me again. Speaking of Civil Wars -- I wonder if WiTE could be tweaked into a Russian Civil War sim or Russo-Polish War.

James Ward -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/4/2011 12:07:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kswanson1 quote: ORIGINAL: redmarkus4 Check the latest beta patch - it's supposed to fix the partisan issues. Members downloads... It probably reduces the numbers of Partisans that get activated. But I doubt it addresses the logistics of keeping rail lines open. Thats what I keep harping on with my lengthy postings. There are a number of logical disconnects in rail repair that will continue to create the same issues for the Germans even after Partisan head counts are reduced. What if the Germans received additional rail repair units later in the game? After the first year the rapid conversion of rail lines isn't quite as important.

Aditia -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/4/2011 1:17:55 AM)
pfff, people worried about 13 partisan attacks, go play the 43-45 scenario, 100's of attacks in v1.03. I don't want to imagine how that would affect the german side in v1.04

pompack -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/4/2011 1:54:11 AM)
.15 had a dramatic effect. The number of partisan units appearing was 8-12 now it is 1-2; the number of attacks was 40-85 per turn now it is 3-12. Considering the massive rail security I have (EVERY Rumanian and most Hungarian and Italian infantry as well as security division, LW divisions, independent regiments and a couple of German line divisions) that is reasonable for Summer of 42.

mmarquo -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/4/2011 4:57:47 AM)
Pavel, Whatever you do, please remember that at the beginning of Bagration, June 1944 the partisans destroyed over 1,000 transportation modes and paralyzed AGS. Marquo [:)]

JAMiAM -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/4/2011 5:08:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marquo Pavel, Whatever you do, please remember that�at the beginning of Bagration, June 1944 the partisans destroyed over 1,000 transportation modes and paralyzed AGS. Marquo [:)] True, but that was a rather anomalous event in the level of coordination with the offensive. This could be just as well modeled by a scenario starting with numerous broken rail hexes in the Axis rear.

Tarhunnas -> RE: Partisans v.1.04.11 (5/4/2011 5:52:54 AM)
Glad the partisan issue is fixed. Wonder if the patch will do anything to the already created partisans? I have a major infestation of partisans and it's august 41. I use the anttrail method antipartisan defense, which means a FZ or other combat unit on every 3d hex on the trunk railroads. It has been working so far, it seems to prevent attacks adjacent to a unit with a combat strength. Airbases do not help, I have had partisan attacks occur under airbase units.

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