Ok, count me in as a bit distressed

Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (Full Version)

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series

Message

PeeDeeAitch -> Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 12:57:55 AM)
Playing a GC against JAMiAM. Turn 3 I got my panzers ready, gassed them up with a massive HQ buildup, and then turn 4? Mud. All in the center. All of my tanks, all of them, are in the mud - gassed up and ready to go. To make matters worse, most are now "in the black" supply, and if they are attacked (and they are at 1 CV due to being supply isolated), they will surrender. The kicker? I can't get them into supply, they have to bounce through ZOCs, they can't use their movement (sure, I know, it will be mostly there next turn, but will they?), and they will be weaker. Sometimes a kick in the privates is what you get. I am now, forever more, a fan of historic weather.

Aditia -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 1:06:53 AM)
I am currently playing with random weather as well. Doesn't add anything positive to the game Edit: let me elaborate. With random weather, the russian summer can (read: will) have 1 random mud turn. Defending as the Germans later in the war this means your defence has to be setup overly cowardly before that random mud turn occurs, since a breakthrough by the soviets, followed by mud can be disastrous. It's the effect of Igo Ugo, nothing to be done about it. I will not play with random weather again.

PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 1:19:13 AM)
As far as I can see, given the nature of the supply rules, the 1941 campaign is shot now. North, the 4th Panzer is done. Central, the 3rd Panzer and 2nd Panzer actually stand a chance of being destroyed. South, all but one of the 1st Panzer mobile units is stuck. Even if I survived the turn with no losses(and I see 4 areas where units will be attacked and forced to retreat through a ZOC (which should be surrender), I have lost all momentum. Next turn the Dnepr will have full defenses in the north, the upper Dvina will be entrenched, and around Pskov the defenders will have that extra turn to slow me down. In the south, there will now be more defense in depth. Oh well, this should go in the War Room, as one of those "stunning defeats."

PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 1:49:53 AM)
And for those that imagine I am being a bit hysterical, here is the mess I got myself into (yes, I know who to blame). As it stands, I will have 7 units in danger of being forced to retreat (possible surrender), with 4 of those "likely" given defensive CVs. No, I am not showing defensive CVs, no need to pinpoint my woes. [image]local://upfiles/23503/E4C7BE29B11A425384DEE2C95A8DD428.gif[/image] Note the wonderful movement, and the fact that one can see the horde of infantry (now stuck in the mud) that was ready to help out the attack! A perfect set up, but for one thing...

Sabre21 -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 2:17:48 AM)
I prefer playing with random weather. It throws that bit of uncertainty in there that makes it a more challenging game...from both sides. The only time I use non-random weather is when I test certain aspects of the game. As for using Hq build-up so early, I wonder why? Your fuel situation should be in good shape to not need to warrant a waste of ap's and trucks at this stage.

Pawlock -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 2:19:57 AM)
Come , come, one of the boards most successful generals ready to throw in the towel after a setback. A bit suprised by your defeatism so early in the game.

JAMiAM -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 2:48:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sabre21 As for using Hq build-up so early, I wonder why? Your fuel situation should be in good shape to not need to warrant a waste of ap's and trucks at this stage. It was actually a good move on his part, Andy. He had penetrated deeply to the point he was at on turn two, and then I tar-babied him, after two turns of running. I had actually cut off from supply about 6 Pz Korps throughout the map. So, on his turn three, he had no choice but to wait a turn, or gamble with an HQ Buildup to catch me with my pants down on his turn four. I tell you, I was worried in the north and center. It was looking to be a real bloodbath. I needed the breather. As it will turn out, at this stage of the game, the mud and my low strength will save him from any true embarrassment. Hence, what he is taking for a disaster, is simply making the game play to the point where most games are at around this stage...[;)]

Ketza -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 2:50:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sabre21 I prefer playing with random weather. It throws that bit of uncertainty in there that makes it a more challenging game...from both sides. The only time I use non-random weather is when I test certain aspects of the game. As for using Hq build-up so early, I wonder why? Your fuel situation should be in good shape to not need to warrant a waste of ap's and trucks at this stage. I would play with random weather as well it if was not such a game changer in the summer of 41. One weeks worth of a few evening thunderstorms should not give the same harsh penalties as a week of soaking rain in the fall or spring. Its a random event that can crush a game.

pompack -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 2:59:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ketza quote: ORIGINAL: Sabre21 I prefer playing with random weather. It throws that bit of uncertainty in there that makes it a more challenging game...from both sides. The only time I use non-random weather is when I test certain aspects of the game. As for using Hq build-up so early, I wonder why? Your fuel situation should be in good shape to not need to warrant a waste of ap's and trucks at this stage. I would play with random weather as well it if was not such a game changer in the summer of 41. One weeks worth of a few evening thunderstorms should not give the same harsh penalties as a week of soaking rain in the fall or spring. Its a random event that can crush a game. +1

Mynok -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 3:40:37 AM)
Could there not be a mud that isn't the Rasputitsa? Just some movement hindrance without the vicious CV reduction? Because surely that's what summer mud represents, rather than the endless goo of fall mud.

PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 3:55:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pawlock Come , come, one of the boards most successful generals ready to throw in the towel after a setback. A bit suprised by your defeatism so early in the game. I usually run on defeatism, tempered by abject terror. However, keep in mind I rarely post anything but hyperbole.

JAMiAM -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 4:43:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch quote: ORIGINAL: Pawlock Come , come, one of the boards most successful generals ready to throw in the towel after a setback. A bit suprised by your defeatism so early in the game. I usually run on defeatism, tempered by abject terror. However, keep in mind I rarely post anything but hyperbole. Indeed, and regardless of victory points, or who is where in May 1945, I will only feel justified in claiming victory, if I can get PDH to cry out "This game is broken!". Anything less, will be a defeat in my eyes...[;)]

kevini1000 -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 4:46:41 AM)
I can really see that Random weather is just to be avoided. It seems the axis will alway get a mud turn during the summer of 41 and this is a killer. quote: ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch Playing a GC against JAMiAM. Turn 3 I got my panzers ready, gassed them up with a massive HQ buildup, and then turn 4? Mud. All in the center. All of my tanks, all of them, are in the mud - gassed up and ready to go. To make matters worse, most are now "in the black" supply, and if they are attacked (and they are at 1 CV due to being supply isolated), they will surrender. The kicker? I can't get them into supply, they have to bounce through ZOCs, they can't use their movement (sure, I know, it will be mostly there next turn, but will they?), and they will be weaker. Sometimes a kick in the privates is what you get. I am now, forever more, a fan of historic weather.

PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 5:35:53 AM)
I am playing on, though it is little consolation that "I will be on turn 5 where most other players are." I really want to be on turn 5 where PDH is! Still, I have to take it like a man - crying and pouting all the way. I expect that some of my schemes now will have to be modified - the mud reduced the resting, it lowered the supply in the south, and it made my infantry (which had to move up still) far more tired. I am demanding a snow turn at christmas.

PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 5:40:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sabre21 I prefer playing with random weather. It throws that bit of uncertainty in there that makes it a more challenging game...from both sides. The only time I use non-random weather is when I test certain aspects of the game. As for using Hq build-up so early, I wonder why? Your fuel situation should be in good shape to not need to warrant a waste of ap's and trucks at this stage. As JAM said, I was forced to because of how I played. I drove hard, balls out, on the first 2 turns, planned to rest (and as it turned out reopen supply) on turn 3 with HQ buildup, then turn 4 and 5 would be wide open again. I do this quite deliberately, though due to JAM's maneuver I had to do it a bit more than I planned. The fuel would be in the 20s otherwise, this I know from experience - and I firmly believe that if I can be in possession of the Landbridge by turn 5 I can make life hell for the Soviets. Just me, as I have said I am learning the game still, and this is something I do to keep mobility through July.

Sabre21 -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 6:32:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ketza quote: ORIGINAL: Sabre21 I prefer playing with random weather. It throws that bit of uncertainty in there that makes it a more challenging game...from both sides. The only time I use non-random weather is when I test certain aspects of the game. As for using Hq build-up so early, I wonder why? Your fuel situation should be in good shape to not need to warrant a waste of ap's and trucks at this stage. I would play with random weather as well it if was not such a game changer in the summer of 41. One weeks worth of a few evening thunderstorms should not give the same harsh penalties as a week of soaking rain in the fall or spring. Its a random event that can crush a game. Since it can only occur once per zone in the summer, it is definitely not a game breaker and makes things much more reasonable by making things more unpredictable. I would have preferred the weather zones to only be about a hundred miles across but we have what we have. It also works to the German advantage come blizzard when snow turns can happen at the worst possible time for the Soviets, not to mention there is no limit to snow turns in February where as non-random has them all blizzard.

Sabre21 -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 6:39:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch quote: ORIGINAL: Sabre21 I prefer playing with random weather. It throws that bit of uncertainty in there that makes it a more challenging game...from both sides. The only time I use non-random weather is when I test certain aspects of the game. As for using Hq build-up so early, I wonder why? Your fuel situation should be in good shape to not need to warrant a waste of ap's and trucks at this stage. As JAM said, I was forced to because of how I played. I drove hard, balls out, on the first 2 turns, planned to rest (and as it turned out reopen supply) on turn 3 with HQ buildup, then turn 4 and 5 would be wide open again. I do this quite deliberately, though due to JAM's maneuver I had to do it a bit more than I planned. The fuel would be in the 20s otherwise, this I know from experience - and I firmly believe that if I can be in possession of the Landbridge by turn 5 I can make life hell for the Soviets. Just me, as I have said I am learning the game still, and this is something I do to keep mobility through July. If you air resupply at the start of your turn 2 using bombers, then at the end of the turn using transports, you can maintain fuel in several panzer corps for quite a few turns without the loss of ap's or trucks. I tend to use my ap's to change out commanders and redistribute support units. I rarely need to use Hq build-up. But to each his own I reckon.

Manstein63 -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 8:18:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch Playing a GC against JAMiAM. Turn 3 I got my panzers ready, gassed them up with a massive HQ buildup, and then turn 4? Mud. All in the center. All of my tanks, all of them, are in the mud - gassed up and ready to go. To make matters worse, most are now "in the black" supply, and if they are attacked (and they are at 1 CV due to being supply isolated), they will surrender. The kicker? I can't get them into supply, they have to bounce through ZOCs, they can't use their movement (sure, I know, it will be mostly there next turn, but will they?), and they will be weaker. Sometimes a kick in the privates is what you get. I am now, forever more, a fan of historic weather. I put this idea into the game suggestion thread not heard if it can be done or not Would it be possible to tweak the weather in random mode so that the Axis player could have guaranteed clear weather untill the end of September of 1941 before the possibility of mud or worse. I would prefer to play with random weather because it gives you that uncertainty but fully understand the frustrations of an Axis Player who has had all their good work on the first turn destroyed by mud on turns 2 & 3 Manstein63

JAMiAM -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 8:39:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Manstein63 quote: ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch Playing a GC against JAMiAM. Turn 3 I got my panzers ready, gassed them up with a massive HQ buildup, and then turn 4? Mud. All in the center. All of my tanks, all of them, are in the mud - gassed up and ready to go. To make matters worse, most are now "in the black" supply, and if they are attacked (and they are at 1 CV due to being supply isolated), they will surrender. The kicker? I can't get them into supply, they have to bounce through ZOCs, they can't use their movement (sure, I know, it will be mostly there next turn, but will they?), and they will be weaker. Sometimes a kick in the privates is what you get. I am now, forever more, a fan of historic weather. I put this idea into the game suggestion thread not heard if it can be done or not Would it be possible to tweak the weather in random mode so that the Axis player could have guaranteed clear weather untill the end of September of 1941 before the possibility of mud or worse. I would prefer to play with random weather because it gives you that uncertainty but fully understand the frustrations of an Axis Player who has had all their good work on the first turn destroyed by mud on turns 2 & 3 Manstein63 Actually, in the June 22, 1941 starting scenarios, random weather doesn't start checking for non-clear weather in zones until turn 4. Then, as mentioned before, a zone may only experience mud once from July through September. Of course, that doesn't prevent the mud from hitting each zone, at the least opportune time. When playing with random weather, you should always plan for the worst possible weather each coming turn, and calculate your risks/rewards from there. Playing mostly as Axis, I've had my fair share of Summer 1941 plans laid to waste from random weather. I've also had the occasional Summer Mud helping me, since when it hits the North Zone before you get there in strength, it can severely affect the ability of the Soviets to preposition and to dig in. Then, when you hit that zone, you know that there will be no more mud until the Fall, and can go hog wild. That said, I'm pretty sure that most everyone can agree that the weather aspect of the game could use a major overhaul, but that is a pretty big project, should the developers ever want to tackle it. I think that Joel said in WITE 2.0...[;)]

Pawlock -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 1:47:17 PM)
Given the option I would go random weather every time. It indeed works both ways where for example in one game I had 1 mud turn and 1 blizzard turn in the whole of 41. Using random weather brings in a new dynamic insomuch you cant go hell for leather with the knowledge that the weather will be good next turn. All your actions now are seasoned with caution. PDH, like most here I have read your AAR's with relish and have been most impressed with your results, but I will be interested to see how you cope with this.

KamilS -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 2:51:53 PM)
quote: Sabre21 Since it can only occur once per zone in the summer, it is definitely not a game breaker and makes things much more reasonable by making things more unpredictable. I would have preferred the weather zones to only be about a hundred miles across but we have what we have. It also works to the German advantage come blizzard when snow turns can happen at the worst possible time for the Soviets, not to mention there is no limit to snow turns in February where as non-random has them all blizzard. In my opinion mud in the summer has much bigger impact than turn of snow during the winter, and there are two reasons. Casualties affect pz units, which are crucial for German advance, and in Soviet case losses are distribute all around their forces. Second and more important factor is difference in Soviet capacity to defend between one turn and another during the summer of '41. There isn't anything like that during winter. Changes then are more gradual, and are mainly controlled but players.

TulliusDetritus -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 3:30:13 PM)
I firmly believe random weather DOES kill the Blitzkrieg. I would love it as a Soviet player... Let's face it. The Germans have 17 turns. They must be bold and agressive. Forward, always forward (the panzers)! But where's the infantry? 5, 10 or 15 hexes behind? And then BANG! Mud. The Soviets throw their hordes, surround the victims and voilà. Welcome to hell! What I said, I would love it! P.S.: yes, I know random weather also might mean a sweet winter (but now the Germans are not that weak so...)

Manstein63 -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 4:58:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus I firmly believe random weather DOES kill the Blitzkrieg. I would love it as a Soviet player... Let's face it. The Germans have 17 turns. They must be bold and agressive. Forward, always forward (the panzers)! But where's the infantry? 5, 10 or 15 hexes behind? And then BANG! Mud. The Soviets throw their hordes, surround the victims and voilà. Welcome to hell! What I said, I would love it! P.S.: yes, I know random weather also might mean a sweet winter (but now the Germans are not that weak so...) I think the term kill the Blitzkrieg may be a bit strong. I have a couple of games going on now but one I hope to have finished in a few weeks. If you would like we could then play the barbarossa scenario as a test using random weather I will be happy to play the Axis & see what happens. Manstein63

TulliusDetritus -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 5:19:00 PM)
Ah, there will be MAXIMUM one mud turn? I thought there might be 2, 3... Still, mud turn means the Germans are N O T advancing (and that's gold during the Blitzkrieg). And of course they might need another turn to reorganize (the armored forces isolated during this mud turn, if they were. And for sure I would throw everything I have to isolate them...). That makes two turns in which the Germans are basically harmless. And of course this means the Gemans ONLY have 15 turns (instead of 17) to create a big mess... Thanks for your offer, Manstein but I cannot afford another game (lack of time) [:)] And the truth is I don't like games which are supposed to prove -or refute- some point. I only play for fun.

Sabre21 -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 5:55:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus Ah, there will be MAXIMUM one mud turn? I thought there might be 2, 3... Still, mud turn means the Germans are N O T advancing (and that's gold during the Blitzkrieg). And of course they might need another turn to reorganize (the armored forces isolated during this mud turn, if they were. And for sure I would throw everything I have to isolate them...). That makes two turns in which the Germans are basically harmless. And of course this means the Gemans ONLY have 15 turns (instead of 17) to create a big mess... Thanks for your offer, Manstein but I cannot afford another game (lack of time) [:)] And the truth is I don't like games which are supposed to prove -or refute- some point. I only play for fun. You could get real unlucky in that the mud hits the German player in such a fashion that it occurs say in the central russian zone just as you approach Smolensk and then the next turn occur in the north russian zone just as you pass Smolensk. That to me is the worst possible situation and I have had it happen to me more than once. On the other hand I have seen mud not occur at all or on turns where it's affects were irrelevant. As for the winter, the worst thing that can happen to the Soviets is to have snow occur across the entire front on turn 26, the turn after blizzard starts. I have had that happen to me as the Soviets. Just as my offensive was getting going the German player was able to catch me in the open and pretty much crush the offensive. It took me 3 turns to recover and get reorganized..by then I was into January 42 and knowing that feb could be all snow I only had 4 or 5 turns to make good any offensive. So yea, random weather can cause grief to both sides.

PeeDeeAitch -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 5:58:03 PM)
I would like to sign up for that "all snow" February, please!

Manstein63 -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 5:59:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus Ah, there will be MAXIMUM one mud turn? I thought there might be 2, 3... Still, mud turn means the Germans are N O T advancing (and that's gold during the Blitzkrieg). And of course they might need another turn to reorganize (the armored forces isolated during this mud turn, if they were. And for sure I would throw everything I have to isolate them...). That makes two turns in which the Germans are basically harmless. And of course this means the Gemans ONLY have 15 turns (instead of 17) to create a big mess... Thanks for your offer, Manstein but I cannot afford another game (lack of time) [:)] And the truth is I don't like games which are supposed to prove -or refute- some point. I only play for fun. As do I. However with random weather there is always the possibility of the Germans having decent combat weather through to December so your 15 turns could turn into 20 turns. Or it could be 15 turns & then Blizzard through to April 1942. That where the fun is in the uncertainty. Manstein63

Scook_99 -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 6:01:04 PM)
There is a maximum of 1 mud turn per weather zone. Notice around Smolensk the weather zone splits. In three separate games I have had mud in one zone, followed by mud in the other. So that put one panzer army in mud one turn, and the other in mud on the second. Joint operations for 2nd and 3rd Panzer Armies were impossible for two turns. That's a big Kibosh on things!

TulliusDetritus -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 6:11:38 PM)
Sabre, I know several combinations are possible. The Soviets could be very well in the receiving end. But you haven't seen the really worst scenario [:D] [and no offense intended, Kamil [:)]] In the Kamil vs Encircled (Soviet) AAR mud appeared and BANG... Encircled threw everything (Moscow approaches). He annihilated 3 German armored divisions. The funniest part is that the Soviet attackers were attacking from CLEAR WEATHER hexes... [:D] Now that's really BAD BAD luck! Manstein, as for the 1942 year, I agree. But I think the best solution, which I am using --and will always use-- is Big Anorak's rule. My point is that the Germans should not be castrated during the Blitzkrieg (and they should be smashed here and there during the blizzard, as it should be). Please also note that I am NOT interested in playing as the Germans (although I will end up doing that I suspect). I love the Soviets but I understand the Blitzkrieg is basically hell on earth. And mud may change this fact [8D]

Sabre21 -> RE: Ok, count me in as a bit distressed (5/8/2011 6:21:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus Sabre, I know several combinations are possible. The Soviets could be very well in the receiving end. But you haven't seen the really worst scenario [:D] [and no offense intended, Kamil [:)]] In the Kamil vs Encircled (Soviet) AAR mud appeared and BANG... Encircled threw everything (Moscow approaches). He annihilated 3 German armored divisions. The funniest part is that the Soviet attackers were attacking from CLEAR WEATHER hexes... [:D] Now that's really BAD BAD luck! Manstein, as for the 1942 year, I agree. But I think the best solution, which I am using --and will always use-- is Big Anorak's rule. My point is that the Germans should not be castrated during the Blitzkrieg (and they should be smashed here and there during the blizzard, as it should be). Please also note that I am NOT interested in playing as the Germans (although I will end up doing that I suspect). I love the Soviets but I understand the Blitzkrieg is basically hell on earth. And mud may change this fact [8D] Yep..I'm familiar with that situation where the German can get over-extended and be in a tough spot if mud hits, especially if they had just used Hq build-up a couple times in a row to make a deep advance. At that point all they basically did was drive themselves to the pow camp. Also I'm not fond of house rules. I look at the game from both sides and play both sides so if something is out of whack, it needs adjusted rather than have house rules for it. I can understand though if some people want to use them, not everyone is going to agree on various aspects of the game.

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.96875