RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (Full Version)

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Zebedee -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/24/2011 3:41:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
Yeah, he's one of my heroes. Well...except for the raping, murdering and pillaging bit. However, in the Art of War, he was uniquely...proficient.


Meh, that's like calling Hitler Grofaz ;p Give Subutai his credit :D



tigercub -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/24/2011 9:38:34 AM)

Well all said and done HQ build up changes have gone a little to far but is a change for the better (needs more testing), but its looking like 19 mp is to small I am thinking it should be able to used within HQs normal supply range 25 hexes.

Tigercub 



Mynok -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/24/2011 2:19:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Interestingly, I believe Dupuy showed that Gheghiz Khan has has the highest sustained march rates of any army in history (over long periods of time at least.) It's incredibly difficult to replicate his logistical achievements with industrial era military forces. Primitive logistics are surprisingly more robust in some cases.


Khan could get what he needed from the land. His "fuel" was grass and he required no ammo that couldn't be made with a straight stick and a carving knife. Huge difference from the Wehrmacht which wasn't going anywhere without gas and bullets.



Peltonx -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/24/2011 4:31:58 PM)

The truck penalty is not going to work like Flaviusx stated. I will burn through the trucks, because I know they will get replaced during the mud, snow and mud months of October 1941 to June 1942. Latter in the war the lines are shorter and its basicly a static front so what do I care about trucks for I have to many if anything.

The 20 MP is way to short. The major rivers become a huge supply wall mainly in the south, which makes defending the center and north easyer. The SHC can move allot of troops to the north and center, because the GHC is so limited in what they can over the Dnieper river. Its not that it can't be crossed, but once your across your stuck there pounding out hexs because of very limited fuel. Your stuck basicly west of the river for a long time waiting on rail heads to get withen 10 to 15 hexs of the river.

I like the idea of a huge AP cost, should be close to 30 to 40 for HQ build up. This will forse the GHC to really limit the amount of build ups. He will have to plan turns a head to save AP's for say one turn of 3 or 4 HQ build-ups.

Only other thing is limit it to 20 to 25 HEXS from a railhead, 99% of the time I am withen 25 hexs of a railhead in the north and center and can be with a little differnt opening in the south also.

Its way to easy to exploit the hex from railhead and truck rules, the only way to keep it realistic and historical is make it withen 25 hexs ( hard cap ) of a railhead AND costs 30 to 40 AP's per HQ.

It needs to be a combination of hard cap and costs, so we can yet this out of the way once and for all.

Pelton



Flaviusx -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/24/2011 4:40:09 PM)

For whatever it is worth, I can see arguments for going with more than 20 mp. Upper limit on truck bound supply in WW2 seems to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 250-300 miles. I'd need to dig into my Creveld for more precise numbers.




Peltonx -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/24/2011 4:50:59 PM)

Flaviusx also remember its kinda like the pony express as far as supplies goes.

There are trucks, boats or trains going from Germany and dropping of in Riga. Then another chain of trucks that picks up supplies in Riga and dropps off in say Pskov. Then from there the deliver to the HQ's which have trucks that deliver to the Divisions. Its a logistics chain, which works very nicely with planning. Its not like a truck drives 300 miles an dropps off stuff.

Supply heads are build up allong the logistics chain, which the generals plan ahead of time before the battle even starts. the Germans were so good at this USA copied it after the war. They did more with so little. The Allies wasted more then the Germans used going 200 miles most of the time.

The Russians totally sucked at logistics which cant really be reflected in this game. They would take months to build up supply heads then attack, basicly totally wipe out the german front lines, go a few hundred miles over a few weeks and be stuck. They never really set up a logistic chain for after they attacked.

They just never could figure out they needed to move their supply hubs forward after the attack started. So they would have to stop and move the supply dumps forward over another month then attack again.

If you wanted to make logistics realistic and historical Gary would make the hard cap and cost one way for the Germans and one way for the Russians. Their is now way one can say that the logistocs of the SHC was anything other then a joke compaired to the Germans or for that matter the western Allies.


Pelton



Flaviusx -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/24/2011 4:59:12 PM)

Riga is a port, bear in mind.

The hard physical constraints on truck supply don't begin at the source of supply in Germany; they begin at the point where no other means of transport than trucks are possible for delivering supply (we will ignore air resupply here for the moment.) In your example, everything before Riga doesn't matter.



rotfront1918 -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/24/2011 5:01:24 PM)

Flaviusx, you are probably right (though I think you could mix my proposal with hard cap), but your comment (admittedly taken out of context) still made me smile:

"German players would [...] totally ignore logistical constraints"

Talk about realism...




Peltonx -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/24/2011 5:06:25 PM)

Yes I know, but the example can work from turns 1 to 7 depending on where the railhead is at.

P reread my last post, thanks.

Talk to you all later.

I do have a ventrilo if anyone ever wants to talk like in real time, hehehe

Pelton



Peltonx -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/24/2011 5:13:44 PM)

My point was that a logistic chain is set up DURING the attack. One turn is a week.

So in other words a short logistics chain so to speak is set-up during the week from point A to point B to C to D from the jumping off point of the attack to the end of the attack. The chain from Riga to Pskov is also set-up before the attack ect ect.

Read up on a military logistics chain before jumping to any conclusions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_logistics

Ok got to go do the work thing.

Cap and costs will fix the issue once and for all. The cap really can't be 100% realistic, but has to fit withen the programming and game mechanics to make it appear realistic and historical.
Pelton



Flaviusx -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/24/2011 5:21:03 PM)

I see your Wikipedia, and raise you http://www.amazon.com/Supplying-War-Logistics-Wallenstein-Patton/dp/0521297931

The chapter on Rommel is particularly instructive here for illustrating what can be done (and not done) with trucks in a situation where terrain isn't a factor, just pure distance. But there is a chapter on the Eastern Front, too.




Peltonx -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/24/2011 6:54:57 PM)

hehehe nice [:)]

The problem then becomes the south is like the desert and the north an almost roadless forest.

I guess hexs solution is less flexable then MP's, but you have to have the MP's close to 30. Which is a realistic hard cap and up the ap cost, so it doen't get exploited to death like before.

Good work Flaviusx

Pelton



Zebedee -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/25/2011 2:07:47 AM)

For German logistics in 1941, I'd recommend this book: http://www.amazon.de/Russlandfeldzug-Eisenbahn-Vorbereitung-Durchf%C3%BChrung-Sowjetunion/dp/3820409505

If you have access to academic literature, Horst Rohde's work is also excellent.





Peltonx -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/25/2011 3:43:20 AM)

Any chance we get a tweak in the VP area next beta patch? Like lower it to 270?

I can dream can't I?



Tarhunnas -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/25/2011 8:34:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zebedee

For German logistics in 1941, I'd recommend this book: http://www.amazon.de/Russlandfeldzug-Eisenbahn-Vorbereitung-Durchf%C3%BChrung-Sowjetunion/dp/3820409505

If you have access to academic literature, Horst Rohde's work is also excellent.



Sounds real interesting, but that was the most expensive pocket book I've seen! I assume it's because of rarity?



Zebedee -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/25/2011 9:53:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
Sounds real interesting, but that was the most expensive pocket book I've seen! I assume it's because of rarity?


Yeah, it was a limited print-run softback. It mainly covers every single aspect of the problems the Heer faced trying to get supplies to the railhead in sufficient quantities. Most major libraries will have a copy though.

For real expensive, try getting hold of the English translations of DRZW - usually German lessons would be an awful lot cheaper [:D] This one I'd really recommend for those without any German: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Germany-Second-World-War-Attack/dp/0198228864/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1306313585&sr=1-1

edit: that's not just a gratuitous link to an expensive book - you can actually read some parts of it via Amazon, and pages 1112 onwards provide some sourced information to support the post I made a page ago.



Tarhunnas -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/25/2011 10:22:48 AM)

Oh, the language wouldn't be the problem, I read German ok, even Russian at a pinch. The price did deter me though.



Zebedee -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/25/2011 11:26:59 AM)

Yeah, some of the specialist works are ludicrously expensive. Even some of the 'standards' are getting increasingly expensive as we get further away from their last major print run - my gf paid £30 just for the abridged English translation of Halder's Diary for me because it has been out of print for so long in English. Still haven't told her I have the unabridged in German :D

I'll trust in Joel and Helpless to perhaps in the longer term look at a more elegant solution which isn't so open to abuse as the current mechanic. Arguably, hitting HQ build-up for a panzergroup should result in the rest of the Army Group freezing in motion for a couple of turns to try and reflect the more immediate impact of doing it - but I can't see that one being even a starter [:o]



barkman44 -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/25/2011 10:48:13 PM)

Are you by chance referencing Halders"Inside Hitlers Headquerters"or something like that[not at home right now]?Got my copy almost 20 years ago still in excellent shape.



Zebedee -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/26/2011 2:26:48 AM)

It's usually called Halder's War Diary: 1939 - 1942. It's a collection of notes Halder made during the war which was then edited into diary format post-war. Last print run of the English version (which is abridged) was 1989 - quite some time ago given how it's one of the most often quoted 'primary' sources.



barkman44 -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/26/2011 12:21:08 PM)

I believe the book I possess is titled"Inside Fuhrer Headqueters"and has Halder as the author.May have been retitled will verify when i get home[i drive a truck].



Zebedee -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/26/2011 12:52:57 PM)

There's a book with a very similar title by Warlimont. Safe travels :)



barkman44 -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/26/2011 5:13:09 PM)

Your right I can see the cover in my minds eye,you certainly know your literature!



Peltonx -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/27/2011 2:00:47 AM)

I thk we getting off topic a llitle, but interesting anyways hehehe



Peltonx -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/29/2011 11:22:00 AM)

Flaviusx and others make some wild unfounded claims I have been HQing 45 hexs from the railhead, which is totally untrue(political statement IE complaining). I don't beleive I have ever made any past 25 hexs. Historically it seems truck supply is about 400 miles or 40 MP's, The Red Ball Express was 400 miles long on the Western front, from Cherbourg to Pattons front line units. http://www.skylighters.org/redball/index.html So 20 MP's is way to short an not based on historical data. You can't count the 5 hexs from the HQ to units because the HQ and Divisions have their own trucks. I can see 30 MP's because the road net work in Russia was not that of France, which by the way would not effect my play at all or for that matter anyone esles.

As I have stated over and over to fix the exploiting problem they need to simply up the AP cost, not go to some unhistorical value of 20 MP's.

Hard cap of 30 mp's and cost 30-40 ap's.

Pelton




sillyflower -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/29/2011 12:14:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Sillyflower its 20 mp not hexs. Normal supply is 25 hexs +5, so you are telling me I have to be anyways 5 to 15 hexs from the front lines to HQ up depending on terrain? Talk about unhistorical. Thats not even realistic.


Apologies -Silly mistake

I think problem arose because some v. good germans realised that buildup rule as could be used to stuff soviets completely in '41 so the long term consequences did not matter: there was no long term.

The ease with which supplies can be built up depends on travel time from supply source to unit -ie how many journeys per day. That has to be MPs not number of hexes. I also expect terrain type will be the other important factor as will impact markedly on truck breakdown rates, which means supplies don't arrive on schedule as well as increased vehicle loss, whch means you need more trucks and drivers so lose more and use up more supplies in the delivery system. After all, this is really 1930s truck technology we are talking about and I expect few german trucks were designed for cross country work especially given what that means in 1941 russia.

Saying High Command can just send 1000s more trucks is not, I expect, the answer either. I rather doubt the vehicles and their drivers were sitting idle and it would have to be robbing Peter to pay Paul. That's the factor that has been missing perhaps from the rule to date.

I do think HQ build up was unrealistic both in what it could achieve and the lack of real price paid. Not a problem in game terms until it stated to be used massively, effectively protecting panzers from supply restraints not seen historically or in any other east front game.

For the reasons above I do think the new restrictions are more realistic than before. Arguably it might be more realistic to give panzers a longer leash but that should mean an extra price to be paid. Your suggestion of much higher AP cost is a reasonable one. A per turn limit would be more realistic as the absudity of lots of different units all getting massive amounts of extra supplies over the same few days is obvious.

I don't pretend to have the perfect answer but hope it will emerge from gameplay.

Finally I'm not sure that is always useful to discuss a beta patch in isolation. If patch A swings balance significantly one way, it isn't always entirely fair to complain when patch B goes the other way, whilst saying patch A is irrelevant because you are talking about B. It's the overall balance that matters as no-one is playing patch B without A as well.




sillyflower -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/29/2011 12:34:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Flaviusx and others make some wild unfounded claims I have been HQing 45 hexs from the railhead, which is totally untrue(political statement IE complaining). I don't beleive I have ever made any past 25 hexs. Historically it seems truck supply is about 400 miles or 40 MP's, The Red Ball Express was 400 miles long on the Western front, from Cherbourg to Pattons front line units. http://www.skylighters.org/redball/index.html So 20 MP's is way to short an not based on historical data. You can't count the 5 hexs from the HQ to units because the HQ and Divisions have their own trucks. I can see 30 MP's because the road net work in Russia was not that of France, which by the way would not effect my play at all or for that matter anyone esles.

As I have stated over and over to fix the exploiting problem they need to simply up the AP cost, not go to some unhistorical value of 20 MP's.

Hard cap of 30 mp's and cost 30-40 ap's.

Pelton




But how many trucks of what capacity and how much fuel etc did it take to run that supply line on good roads???
More of all than germans had (to spare) and you would have to multiply by a factor of 3 probably for barbarossa given numbers of troops involved, ansd say double again because of poorer road quality.

Before anyone says I've got the numbers wrong, I admit I'm just trying to guess..

Probably the best answer to all this has been given by Pavel elsewhere - the HQ buildup system is to be replaced



Zebedee -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (5/29/2011 3:01:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Flaviusx and others make some wild unfounded claims I have been HQing 45 hexs from the railhead, which is totally untrue(political statement IE complaining). I don't beleive I have ever made any past 25 hexs. Historically it seems truck supply is about 400 miles or 40 MP's, The Red Ball Express was 400 miles long on the Western front, from Cherbourg to Pattons front line units. http://www.skylighters.org/redball/index.html So 20 MP's is way to short an not based on historical data. You can't count the 5 hexs from the HQ to units because the HQ and Divisions have their own trucks. I can see 30 MP's because the road net work in Russia was not that of France, which by the way would not effect my play at all or for that matter anyone esles.

As I have stated over and over to fix the exploiting problem they need to simply up the AP cost, not go to some unhistorical value of 20 MP's.

Hard cap of 30 mp's and cost 30-40 ap's.

Pelton




If you're going to cite 'history' as support, worth having a look at the book I linked to via Amazon a few posts ago Pelton - fairly substantial excerpts can be read via Amazon, and that includes segments on the German logistics on the Eastern Front. That's probably going to be a tad more relevant than the Red Ball Express.

Yes, supply was done over great distances on the Eastern Front (out of absolute necessity because there wasn't the capacity to move the supply dumps forward at the same time as major offensives) - but it came at a cost which is not replicated in game (eg lack of supplies then going to other units), in circumstances which are not replicated in game (eg absolute shortage of supply at railhead supply dumps), and which are not really going to be constrained by increasing the AP requirements unless that level is such that it necessarily precludes the kind of rolling HQ buildup offensive which exploited the mechanic.

Got to be honest and say that so far the only thing the new rule has prevented me doing is the rather ahistorical offroading through the swamps and forest to the East of Leningrad. That's not really a bad thing.



xiaochun3612 -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (6/10/2011 5:37:26 AM)

Sadly, my sanity has been questioned often.

The very first time I played with random weather - BLAMMO! mud on turn 4. Oh well.



JAMiAM -> RE: Patch 1.04.22 to much of a German nerf? (6/10/2011 6:15:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xiaochun3612

Sadly, my sanity has been questioned often.

The very first time I played with random weather - BLAMMO! mud on turn 4. Oh well.


This is actually pretty damned hilarious. The SpamBots are getting much better at their jobs. This one - almost - looks like he belongs here. Until you see his hyperlinked signature. Clever, but not clever enough...[:-]



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