A couple of demo observations

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JJKettunen -> A couple of demo observations (6/6/2011 12:08:15 PM)
Hi, I really have enjoyed playing the demo, and I'm seriously considering the purchase. The game gives that good old CMBB feeling. [:)] There are a couple of things which puzzle me though: 1) In the tutorial scen, why does an infantry squad jump off its halftrack, when a 82mm mortar shell lands over 50 meters away, and there are no other threats nearby? Halftracks are there to give protection from splinters and small arms fire, so it doesn't make much sense, especially under scattered bombardment. Jumped off squad is then suppressed, won't accept orders, and is basically waiting for another shell to land on it. I think passengers should stay in their vehicles unless it is damaged, under heavy fire, or if there's a nearby threat. Also, when trying to keep units together, a logistical nightmare could be then avoided. 2) In the other scen the reinforcing tank platoon appears as a bundle, which is immediately attacked by a Sturmovik, which has an accuracy of a modern day Warthog (so there are actually three issues here), killing in the worst case two tanks out of the three. Either the platoon should appear with proper distances between the vehicles, or they should be given time to regroup before an air attack. I'd also suggest tuning down the efficiency of air attacks, according to their historical performance (instead of the mythological claims of the pilots...). Are these issues something that are going to be checked out (or have been reconsidered/fixed already)? Thanks!

Mad Russian -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/6/2011 12:51:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Keke Hi, I really have enjoyed playing the demo, and I'm seriously considering the purchase. The game gives that good old CMBB feeling. [:)] There are a couple of things which puzzle me though: 1) In the tutorial scen, why does an infantry squad jump off its halftrack, when a 82mm mortar shell lands over 50 meters away, and there are no other threats nearby? Halftracks are there to give protection from splinters and small arms fire, so it doesn't make much sense, especially under scattered bombardment. Jumped off squad is then suppressed, won't accept orders, and is basically waiting for another shell to land on it. I think passengers should stay in their vehicles unless it is damaged, under heavy fire, or if there's a nearby threat. Also, when trying to keep units together, a logistical nightmare could be then avoided. I agree. It's something that is being looked at. From my very first play through of PCK I saw the same behavior and that's carried over. While it seems a bit unusual for infantry to bail out of a perfectly good vehicle they would if they thought the threat was high enough. quote: 2) In the other scen the reinforcing tank platoon appears as a bundle, which is immediately attacked by a Sturmovik, which has an accuracy of a modern day Warthog (so there are actually three issues here), killing in the worst case two tanks out of the three. Either the platoon should appear with proper distances between the vehicles, or they should be given time to regroup before an air attack. The scenario designer sets the spacing. The air attacks are pretty varied in their location and results. quote: I'd also suggest tuning down the efficiency of air attacks, according to their historical performance (instead of the mythological claims of the pilots...). If the claims of pilots were so mythological why did all nations combat units fear them? The myth is that they were so overrated. If they were overrated the worlds armies wouldn't have done everything they could do to prevent being attacked from the air. While they are not the magical super weapon some would have them to be air attacks were often very harmful. In PCO an air attack can have several results. Including an attack of your own units. Some of the random campaigns report pretty mediocre results of their CAS at times and good results at other times. Good Hunting. MR

JMass -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/6/2011 1:02:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mad Russian quote: ORIGINAL: Keke 2) In the other scen the reinforcing tank platoon appears as a bundle, which is immediately attacked by a Sturmovik, which has an accuracy of a modern day Warthog (so there are actually three issues here), killing in the worst case two tanks out of the three. The air attacks are pretty varied in their location and results. When I played this scenario I lost no tank to the Sturmovik, I can confirm that air attacks are unpredictable.

junk2drive -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/6/2011 1:05:12 PM)
1 That is going to be changed in the first update. Tank riders will still dismount if suppressed but passengers of halftracks will stay in most of the time. 2 Just like other games, if you play as Soviets the ILs won't hit anything but your own, play as Germans and they are deadly. [:D] When the planes will show up is random. In all the testing I have done with the demo, the ILs never showed up when the reinforcements came in. Usually they will have attacked enough times to be out of bombs by that time.

JJKettunen -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/6/2011 1:06:21 PM)
Thanks for the quick answers! Regarding air attacks, their effect was often indirect, causing all sorts of delays and disruption, not forgetting the danger to soft vehicles, supply and artillery. It is the effect against tanks I'm questioning here. There are quality researches out there (for example, Gooderson, Allied Fighter-Bombers versus German Armour in North-Western Europe 1944—1945: Myths and Realities), which show how poor WWII aircrafts actually were against tanks, and how their kill claims were hugely exaggerated.

JJKettunen -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/6/2011 1:11:03 PM)
I must have been pretty damn unlucky with the Sturmovik... I actually restarted the turn 5 times and kept the one where the tanks escaped the attack unharmed. [:D] I guess its arrival on that exact turn was determined before the order phase.

JJKettunen -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/6/2011 1:34:27 PM)
...and it is good to hear that the unmounting issue is going to be fixed. Cheers!

Mobius -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/6/2011 1:54:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Keke Thanks for the quick answers! Regarding air attacks, their effect was often indirect, causing all sorts of delays and disruption, not forgetting the danger to soft vehicles, supply and artillery. It is the effect against tanks I'm questioning here. There are quality researches out there (for example, Gooderson, Allied Fighter-Bombers versus German Armour in North-Western Europe 1944—1945: Myths and Realities), which show how poor WWII aircrafts actually were against tanks, and how their kill claims were hugely exaggerated. I agree. But to have any affect on the tactical battlefield this sort of direct attack is increased. More realistic would be the gradual degrading of the tactical units because their supply line was impacted. That is too subtle to show in a tactical game.

JJKettunen -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/6/2011 2:56:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mobius I agree. But to have any affect on the tactical battlefield this sort of direct attack is increased. More realistic would be the gradual degrading of the tactical units because their supply line was impacted. That is too subtle to show in a tactical game. My idea would be that air attacks caused widespread suppression (ie. several units - shocks to the tank crew, I gather), and more minor damage instead of straight kills. e: demo nightshift -> not enough sleep -> My English suffers

rickier65 -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/6/2011 3:22:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Keke quote: ORIGINAL: Mobius I agree. But to have any affect on the tactical battlefield this sort of direct attack is increased. More realistic would be the gradual degrading of the tactical units because their supply line was impacted. That is too subtle to show in a tactical game. My idea would be that air attacks caused widespread suppression (ie. several units - shocks to the tank crew, I gather), and more minor damage instead of straight kills. e: demo nightshift -> not enough sleep -> My English suffers Actually, what you describe above is what I see happen most often, though there are tank kills happening too. For the times I've played that scenario though, it's my 2 Jags that tank the brunt of the air assault. But even without the air attack, that reinforcing platoon is in a pretty risky position. I often lose a couple of them within a couple of turns of arrival. And your english is fine! thanks rick

JJKettunen -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/6/2011 4:00:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rick Actually, what you describe above is what I see happen most often, though there are tank kills happening too. For the times I've played that scenario though, it's my 2 Jags that tank the brunt of the air assault. I learned to put those Jags in the woods during set-up. Then they were safe from air attacks. quote: ORIGINAL: Rick But even without the air attack, that reinforcing platoon is in a pretty risky position. I often lose a couple of them within a couple of turns of arrival. True, Pz-IVs are pretty lightweight against heavier Soviet tanks. quote: And your english is fine! Only after sufficient amount of edits. [;)]

Mobius -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/6/2011 4:03:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Keke My idea would be that air attacks caused widespread suppression (ie. several units - shocks to the tank crew, I gather), and more minor damage instead of straight kills. e: demo nightshift -> not enough sleep -> My English suffers Rocket attacks seem to have a widespread morale affect rather than actual tank losses. [image]local://upfiles/21308/DC13F73FD7FB4F8488453ACB07955490.jpg[/image]

JJKettunen -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/6/2011 4:07:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mobius Rocket attacks seem to have a widespread morale affect rather than actual tank losses. Indeed. I was about to write that with suppression to more units I meant also infantry across the map that get "scared" of an enemy air attack. Morale effects have not been denied by any researcher, as far as I know.

Mad Russian -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/7/2011 1:15:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Keke Thanks for the quick answers! Regarding air attacks, their effect was often indirect, causing all sorts of delays and disruption, not forgetting the danger to soft vehicles, supply and artillery. It is the effect against tanks I'm questioning here. There are quality researches out there (for example, Gooderson, Allied Fighter-Bombers versus German Armour in North-Western Europe 1944—1945: Myths and Realities), which show how poor WWII aircrafts actually were against tanks, and how their kill claims were hugely exaggerated. I don't read any of the studies done by the Allied ground forces about how poorly the Allied Airforces did in ground attack. See what the Germans had to say. Look at the pictures of German vehicles in Normandy covered from top to bottom in camouflage. Read their accounts of fighter bomber attacks knocking out tanks all over France and how their battlefield effectiveness was continually eroded by the Jabos. The Germans HATED Allied fighter bombers. That alone tells the real truth. Allied ground commanders hated them as well. The reasons are two fold. 1) They didn't have enough control over where they attacked and often they hit the wrong target or even friendly units. Sound familiar. 2) They couldn't give a lot of credit to the CAS. They had to downplay their part of the actions. Good Hunting. MR

Mobius -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/7/2011 2:56:52 AM)
I saw another set of tests where several passes were made. Each pass 2 rockets were fired at tank targets. No hits were scored by the first pass. The overall score was 5% hits in those tests. In this test the score is ~12% hits + 1 damaging near miss. [image]local://upfiles/21308/C78FE444D42B4C66A7ACC5A495CDC730.jpg[/image]

JJKettunen -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/7/2011 9:44:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mad Russian I don't read any of the studies done by the Allied ground forces about how poorly the Allied Airforces did in ground attack. See what the Germans had to say. Look at the pictures of German vehicles in Normandy covered from top to bottom in camouflage. Read their accounts of fighter bomber attacks knocking out tanks all over France and how their battlefield effectiveness was continually eroded by the Jabos. The Germans HATED Allied fighter bombers. That alone tells the real truth. Allied ground commanders hated them as well. The reasons are two fold. 1) They didn't have enough control over where they attacked and often they hit the wrong target or even friendly units. Sound familiar. 2) They couldn't give a lot of credit to the CAS. They had to downplay their part of the actions. Good Hunting. MR So instead of quality research, the tank killing abilities are based on poor secondary sources? That is pretty unfortunate.

JJKettunen -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/7/2011 10:12:56 AM)
I'd like to add that CMBB had the accuracy of air attacks pretty much spot on. There's a tendency in tactical level games to please the gamers by making air attacks more lethal. This could be seen in SPWAW years ago, while SPWW2 has been more true to realism.

Mad Russian -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/7/2011 1:00:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Keke quote: ORIGINAL: Mad Russian I don't read any of the studies done by the Allied ground forces about how poorly the Allied Airforces did in ground attack. See what the Germans had to say. Look at the pictures of German vehicles in Normandy covered from top to bottom in camouflage. Read their accounts of fighter bomber attacks knocking out tanks all over France and how their battlefield effectiveness was continually eroded by the Jabos. The Germans HATED Allied fighter bombers. That alone tells the real truth. Allied ground commanders hated them as well. The reasons are two fold. 1) They didn't have enough control over where they attacked and often they hit the wrong target or even friendly units. Sound familiar. 2) They couldn't give a lot of credit to the CAS. They had to downplay their part of the actions. Good Hunting. MR So instead of quality research, the tank killing abilities are based on poor secondary sources? That is pretty unfortunate. You think the German archives are poor secondary sources? That's pretty unfortunate. I think you'll find as you play scenarios with CAS in them that it's pretty spot on in PCO as well. I'm not taking anything away from the studies that were done after the fact. They were trying to get answers to the questions of how effective CAS is. But looking at the results from the Allied side is putting a set of answers to a question where they have both the question and their own answers. The ones to answer the question of how effective Allied airpower is/was are the Germans. They are the ones that were effected by it. The studies I've seen are anything but conclusive. You have something 60% knocked out by AT weaponry, 15% knocked out by air weaponry and 25% knocked out to unknown causes. The deduction of the study is that CAS doesn't work. When in fact that 25% for unknown causes could go in the CAS results. In many cases the studies were done by ground forces. They have a vested interest in those studies coming out with an anti-airforce bias. The difference is the Allies have the end result and they think they know what happened. The Germans also have the end result and they know what happened. It's easy to choose which report to believe. If you want to know how well the enemies airforces did ask the guys that were on the receiving end of them. If the IL-2 wasn't effective why did it have the German nickname of the "Butcher Bird"? There has been a big effort by anti-airforce elements to down play the effects of CAS both during and after the war. The reality of the situation is that CAS in WWII was in it's infancy. There were lots of times it wasn't effective. There were equally as many times when it was. Patton refused to allow the 2nd Allied Tactical Airforce to operate in his area for awhile. He called them the 2nd Luftwaffe Tactical Airforce. That's because of the number of mistaken ID attacks on his own forces. There was a British forward attack that was completely stopped by Typhoons. If air attacks were so ineffective why did the Allies worry about friendly attacks from them? Because they weren't ineffective all the time. At times they could be devastating. The problem with CAS is how to make it work for you and not against you. In WWII that was a tough assignment. What we've tried to do in PCO is separate the fact from the fiction. I personally think we've done a pretty good job. CAS can be your best friend or your worst enemy. As in real life, you just never know which is going to show up. In regards to the studies done by the Allies to determine the effect of their airpower they asked the wrong questions. They found that for the most part there were more German tanks killed by means other than airpower. Do you think so? There were thousands of Allied tanks and a few hundred airplanes. I agree German tanks were usually knocked out by something other than an airplane. What they should have done studies on was for each of those air attacks what was the results of those? And only those attacks. Then you'd have gotten a much more objective study. Good Hunting. MR

vonRocko -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/7/2011 1:10:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: junk2drive 2 Just like other games, if you play as Soviets the ILs won't hit anything but your own, play as Germans and they are deadly. [:D] This seems too be true! I play as the Germans, and I have yet to see my stukas hit something, friendly or enemy! I cringe when I see them in my roster, because they are useless. I would much rather have some mortar support.

Mad Russian -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/7/2011 1:16:21 PM)
When the scenario is over would you check to see what experience level they are? As in real life, the experience level of the pilot makes a difference in PCO. Good Hunting. MR

Commanderski -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/7/2011 1:27:05 PM)
There was and is a lot of friendly fire casualties by Air support, from back then to now, especially in close combat situations. I think the game has it modeled pretty good.

vonRocko -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/7/2011 1:46:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mad Russian When the scenario is over would you check to see what experience level they are? As in real life, the experience level of the pilot makes a difference in PCO. Good Hunting. MR Ok I'll do that. My current battle doesn't have any air, but I'll keep this in mind. I keep restarting the 1st panzer long campaign, and I've never made it past 1941, but shouldn't the luftwaffe be most experienced in 41 and decline as the war goes on? It's just a minor thing, and probably just bad luck that I get no hits. I love this game!

junk2drive -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/7/2011 1:53:27 PM)
quote: 8.1. AIR STRIKES Some scenarios may allow you to purchase one or more ground-attack planes for air support. These planes are not under your control, but they’ve been assigned to your section of the battle to support as they can. If purchased, they will arrive over the battlefield at a random turn, weighted towards the beginning. When the air strike will arrive and what the planes will attack is based on a number of factors. The experience of the pilot determines entry phase, accuracy of fire, and how good it is at detecting nearby friendlies, with a chance for friendly fire as follows: Elite = 5%, Veteran = 10%, and Green = 20%. Units in cover or special terrain are shielded from LOS. Pilots attempt to pick clumps of enemies for maximum effect. The target priority for air strikes, in order, is first guns, then tanks, then infantry. Note that in cases where both sides can buy air support, the side with more purchased planes is assumed to have air superiority and thus has a higher chance each turn of an air strike arriving on the battlefield. Check the Specs for each air strike on the scenario purchase screen if you want to know the weaponry and firepower that it can bring to bear, as air units are not under your control and do not show up on your HUD once the battle begins. I'll add to the last paragraph that you can also check the experience level of your own air in the purchase screen.

vonRocko -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/7/2011 2:09:39 PM)
Thanks J2D, So, if I understand this correctly, the aircrew experience is random per battle, and not linked to the date of the war? Also, if you are purchasing units, can you choose to pay extra for experienced crews?

JJKettunen -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/7/2011 2:13:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mad Russian quote: ORIGINAL: Keke quote: ORIGINAL: Mad Russian I don't read any of the studies done by the Allied ground forces about how poorly the Allied Airforces did in ground attack. See what the Germans had to say. Look at the pictures of German vehicles in Normandy covered from top to bottom in camouflage. Read their accounts of fighter bomber attacks knocking out tanks all over France and how their battlefield effectiveness was continually eroded by the Jabos. The Germans HATED Allied fighter bombers. That alone tells the real truth. Allied ground commanders hated them as well. The reasons are two fold. 1) They didn't have enough control over where they attacked and often they hit the wrong target or even friendly units. Sound familiar. 2) They couldn't give a lot of credit to the CAS. They had to downplay their part of the actions. Good Hunting. MR So instead of quality research, the tank killing abilities are based on poor secondary sources? That is pretty unfortunate. You think the German archives are poor secondary sources? That's pretty unfortunate. I think you'll find as you play scenarios with CAS in them that it's pretty spot on in PCO as well. I'm not taking anything away from the studies that were done after the fact. They were trying to get answers to the questions of how effective CAS is. But looking at the results from the Allied side is putting a set of answers to a question where they have both the question and their own answers. The ones to answer the question of how effective Allied airpower is/was are the Germans. They are the ones that were effected by it. The studies I've seen are anything but conclusive. You have something 60% knocked out by AT weaponry, 15% knocked out by air weaponry and 25% knocked out to unknown causes. The deduction of the study is that CAS doesn't work. When in fact that 25% for unknown causes could go in the CAS results. In many cases the studies were done by ground forces. They have a vested interest in those studies coming out with an anti-airforce bias. The difference is the Allies have the end result and they think they know what happened. The Germans also have the end result and they know what happened. It's easy to choose which report to believe. If you want to know how well the enemies airforces did ask the guys that were on the receiving end of them. If the IL-2 wasn't effective why did it have the German nickname of the "Butcher Bird"? There has been a big effort by anti-airforce elements to down play the effects of CAS both during and after the war. The reality of the situation is that CAS in WWII was in it's infancy. There were lots of times it wasn't effective. There were equally as many times when it was. Patton refused to allow the 2nd Allied Tactical Airforce to operate in his area for awhile. He called them the 2nd Luftwaffe Tactical Airforce. That's because of the number of mistaken ID attacks on his own forces. There was a British forward attack that was completely stopped by Typhoons. If air attacks were so ineffective why did the Allies worry about friendly attacks from them? Because they weren't ineffective all the time. At times they could be devastating. The problem with CAS is how to make it work for you and not against you. In WWII that was a tough assignment. What we've tried to do in PCO is separate the fact from the fiction. I personally think we've done a pretty good job. CAS can be your best friend or your worst enemy. As in real life, you just never know which is going to show up. In regards to the studies done by the Allies to determine the effect of their airpower they asked the wrong questions. They found that for the most part there were more German tanks killed by means other than airpower. Do you think so? There were thousands of Allied tanks and a few hundred airplanes. I agree German tanks were usually knocked out by something other than an airplane. What they should have done studies on was for each of those air attacks what was the results of those? And only those attacks. Then you'd have gotten a much more objective study. Good Hunting. MR Well, you just keep on reiterating your prejudice against any studies without actually reading them. Also you keep confusing the overall air effects with their actual tank killing abilities. Also, self serving accounts of the German land forces are not credible source material by any means, nor any Rudel-like fairy tales.

junk2drive -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/7/2011 2:42:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vonRocko Thanks J2D, So, if I understand this correctly, the aircrew experience is random per battle, and not linked to the date of the war? Also, if you are purchasing units, can you choose to pay extra for experienced crews? You can't purchase experience in the Set Battle purchase screen. You can open a scenario in the editor, change the names, increase the points total, and change or add air with experience. In the RBG you can set experience but I think it is for all units on a side.

junk2drive -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/7/2011 2:46:23 PM)
Also aircrew experience is not random. In a random battle they can be random experience quote: EXPERIENCE: Click to cycle between “Green”, ”Veteran” and “Elite” forces. This option can also be individually randomised with a right click if desired. An explanation of the difference between unit experience levels can be found in the main game manual. This option doesn’t 100% ensure all your force will be comprised of units with the selected experience, but rather changes the odds that they will be. This was done so as to better reflect the realty of likely force composition.

vonRocko -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/7/2011 4:06:26 PM)
Thanks for clearing that up for me. [;)]

Erik Rutins -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/7/2011 4:15:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Keke So instead of quality research, the tank killing abilities are based on poor secondary sources? That is pretty unfortunate. MR is expressing his opinion. The air strike system in-game will generally miss or stun vehicles far more often than it destroys them. Note that some of the rolls are already determined, so reloading a save may not always get you different results, but playing a scenario multiple times should. The demo Novy scenario has four IL-2s attacking the Germans, setup so that they will have an easy time spotting the German armor. In most scenarios, airpower has a harder time spotting and hitting armor - ComradeP's AAR should show you that. He's actually had no luck at all with his Stukas so far. We are checking the air targeting for the first update based on ComradeP's report. Historically, it's also arguable whether air should be showing up this close to friendly troops and in the middle of a battle. Did it ever happen? Sure, but it was far more typical for it to operate farther away. We allow the scenario designer to decide, between positioning the arrival point and setting the experience of the air assets, how effective he wants them to be. Regards, - Erik

JJKettunen -> RE: A couple of demo observations (6/7/2011 4:26:55 PM)
Four Sturmoviks? [sm=00000116.gif] I thought it was one plane causing all the havoc. Surely that affects my estimation of the effects. [:D] And yes, on this scale it would make sense if planes operated on the first turn only. Maybe spotting could be enhanced then.

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