RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (Full Version)

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crsutton -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/16/2011 10:44:45 PM)

The point is I think pretty clear. In July of 42, if KB is intact then you pretty much don't have too many options. You need to be patient and find opportunties to whittle down the Japanese navy. I personally don't think the Allied carriers fleet is a match for the Japanese in 7/42 so my only clear goal at that stage of a game is to not fight them on equal terms. Which most of the time means not fight them at all. If he is conducting an operation with massed Japanese fleet in mid 42 then the odds are he will win. Your choice is to keep you fleet intact and keep him on his toes by hitting places where he is not. That way he will be limited to one major offensive at at time. Sounds counter productive but the odds are that you will get creamed in a major fight so why put yourself in that position.

Time is your friend and as time passes you strength grows and his offensive power can be ground down. As an Allied player, it has always been my firm rule never to risk my carriers in 1942 unless I am close to certain that I can't lose. Because if you lose then you are out of carriers till mid 1943 and you will suffer a whole lot more for it. My preference is to give up territory rather than lose divisions or carriers. I don't mean Sir Robin. I fight for every bit of ground, but not to the point where he can pull off a major coup.

Too many AFBs are looking for that "miracle at Midway" in 1942. A good JBF will exploit this every time.



DivePac88 -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/17/2011 2:30:32 AM)

Well I can see 2x main points here;

1# Is that to defeat The Main Japanese Carrier force, you have to create a tactical situation as the American did in RL, though mainly luck and some good management to your advantage.

2# Is that also to defeat the Main Japanese Carrier Force, they would have to operate as they did in RL, with Their Carrier Force dispersed.



ChezDaJez -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/17/2011 3:26:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

All you need for that is a couple of P38 squadrons. [;)]


In reply to Brad:

Ha ha... very funny! [:@]

To all others:

Don't ask. [:-]

Chez



ChezDaJez -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/17/2011 3:30:18 AM)

One squadron of B-17s should be able to decimate his CAP... grumble, grumble, grumble!

Chez



topeverest -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/17/2011 3:45:13 AM)

Interesting philosophy Inquisitor. I certainly agree about exerting allied dominance with LBA. I tend to subscribe to the situational theory of early allied invaions. What and where you do is contingent on what naval assets the enemy has in place and how he or she is using them. Amphibious deception and small hop invasions are critical elements in games where the enemy subscribes to the decisive battle theory.



bradfordkay -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/17/2011 5:42:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

One squadron of B-17s should be able to decimate his CAP... grumble, grumble, grumble!

Chez



They aren't decimating your CAP... they're just sending the scared little puppies home with their tails tucked between their legs! [;)]



herwin -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/17/2011 7:01:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

Well I can see 2x main points here;

1# Is that to defeat The Main Japanese Carrier force, you have to create a tactical situation as the American did in RL, though mainly luck and some good management to your advantage.

2# Is that also to defeat the Main Japanese Carrier Force, they would have to operate as they did in RL, with Their Carrier Force dispersed.


What's the downside of operating eight carriers in a single TF? I don't think the coordination penalty matters much at that point. Is it vulnerable to SAGs? Resupply? That you can track it continuously from across the ocean?



CV 2 -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/17/2011 9:20:03 AM)

Well the downside is half your planes arent going to fly. Or is it a quarter?



FatR -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/17/2011 10:49:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor

Well, in late 1943, you would consider yourself terribly unlucky, if you have ONLY 300 HELLCATs on CAP [:D]

Allies are actually all about land-based heavy bombers. You close airfields, and destroy planes there. CVs are only mostly support, until 1944.

I agree. There is not a lot that Japanese can do to a large, properly protected, Allied base from autumn of 1942 and later. At least without squandering disproportionate amounts of assets. Massed 4Es and base hopping are the keys for steady advance to victory.

That said, once all 6 USN 1942 carriers arrive and get flak upgrades, an all-out carrier clash on neutral terms is, IMO, already a good proposition for Allies. The battle (assuming RN carriers also are sailing with the Allied fleet) will be quite even and depending on how the dice will roll. But consequences of a defeat are much less severe for Allies at this stage, and bloody draw suits them just fine. The exception is a situation where Allies just have invaded beyond the range of their LBA and will likely lose the invasion force unless the fleet continues to support it. That's why such invasions need to be considered carefully in 1942.



Bliztk -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/17/2011 12:46:38 PM)

Interesting discussion [:)]

As the evil Japanese viewpoint:

I have KB split in two forces.
Akagi, Hiryu, Soryu, Shokaku and Zuikaku with 2xKongos 3xCA, 2xCS 6xDDs
Kaga, Junyo, Hiyo, Zuiho, Ryuho and Shoho, 2xKongos 3xCAs 2xCs 6xDDs

Yamato, Nagato & Mutsu herald the KB,
then following the SAG KB Slow,
Followed by Fuso Ise Hyuga,
Followed by 4xDD ASW TF
Followed by KB Fast,
followed by ASWTF
followed by CA SAG
followed by ASWTF

Reaction 0 = Yamato, KBI KB II
Reaction 1= CA and Fuso SAG
Reaction 2 = ASW TFs

I have 10 Jakes searching at night.

The idea is to move first Yamato, clean the hex, then KB arrives. The ASW Tfs should react to any submarine and move ahead.

And unlike Yamamoto, I will not fight in neutral territory. We are fighting for PM, which is the last perimeter base I want to take, backed by a level 8 airfield at Rabaul with 72 A6M2 and 90 Netties.

Basically I duck out from Rabaul air umbrella for 1-2 days, conduct my operations, and then run away under air cover.



Smeulders -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/17/2011 1:50:18 PM)

Will the ASW force actually react ? Or will the order to follow another TF be more important ?



Bliztk -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/17/2011 2:39:14 PM)

I have seem them drop out of the formation. I guess that it depends of TF commander aggresiveness



herwin -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/17/2011 3:12:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

Will the ASW force actually react ? Or will the order to follow another TF be more important ?


Reaction seems to trump following. That was the problem in the Coral Sea Turkey Shoot.

It looks like an elephant train!

I have this image of my raptor pack trying to take down individuals from this herd of brontosaurs in a defensive huddle. No wonder it doesn't work!



FatR -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/17/2011 4:16:24 PM)

I prefer to use follow orders as little as possible, since I observed following TFs falling behind and causing slowdowns. Certainly, in any critical operations I'll direct every TF separately now.



Icedawg -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/17/2011 5:54:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Without revealing any trade secrets, here are few things to try.

1. - dont fight it...pretty simple, but run your behind away at maximum speed...set ambushes with your CV's and only spring if the enemy is broken up.
2. - manage pilots so only 70+ skill pilots are aboard.
3. - if you expect to be outnumbered, change the game so that the odds improve in your favor. This inlcudes adding fighter ssquadrons, swapping out bomber for fighter squadrons, and even the extreme of putting only fighters on the carriers (and moving your bombers to a nearby land base.
4. - only fight in range of a good airbase with many fighters that can supplement CAP and provide incremental bomber support
5. - know how many fighters you need to withstand enemy onslaughts. 2 to 1 minimum needed to deflect most of an enemy attack. Three or 4 to one desirable.
6. - search heavily and at maximum distance when naval or carrier combat is a possibility. Dont engage if you are that outnumbered!
7. - use picket TF's of a DD / pg, AK, PT, etc or two out a dozen or more hexes. They will encounter the enemy first and provide critical warning
8. - put BB's in your CV TF's. they will take many of the hits
9. - be patient. Once you've established a decisive battle enemy strategy, you should utilize deception to draw away the enemy away from your intended target. Also use smaller jumps rather than long leap invasions.
10 - mass a dozen or more subs. In 42, mainly spotters, in 43, they will take their toll
Hope this helps.


Regarding #7 - isn't this a bit gamey when one considers how the game engine works?

I know in real life, the allies used picket DDs as a way of providing early detection of incoming raids directed at carriers, but the way it works in the game is completely different. When one side uses these picket TFs, the other side's airstrikes concentrate on the pickets and fail to attack the juicy targets behind the pickets. How many of us have seen the ridiculous results where a strike of 100+ bombers hits a single picket xAKL and fails to attack the intended target?

If there are no house rules, then by all means try #7. But I would think any reasonable opponent would demand a house rule against single-ship bait/picket TFs.



inqistor -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/17/2011 6:05:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin
What's the downside of operating eight carriers in a single TF? I don't think the coordination penalty matters much at that point. Is it vulnerable to SAGs? Resupply? That you can track it continuously from across the ocean?


If it have more than 15 ships, it gets penalty in surface, and air fight.
And coordination will kick in during attacks. It will have trouble sending any large strike, so there will be probably lots of small packets, unable to get through CAP.

But yeah, in defensive CAP it rulez



herwin -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/17/2011 6:26:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin
What's the downside of operating eight carriers in a single TF? I don't think the coordination penalty matters much at that point. Is it vulnerable to SAGs? Resupply? That you can track it continuously from across the ocean?


If it have more than 15 ships, it gets penalty in surface, and air fight.
And coordination will kick in during attacks. It will have trouble sending any large strike, so there will be probably lots of small packets, unable to get through CAP.

But yeah, in defensive CAP it rulez


Yep.

My opponent quickly realised I was trying to slip SAGs past his screen, and what he describes is his solution. Now I need to figure out how to bypass his leading SAG...



darbycmcd -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/17/2011 10:16:29 PM)

Why are you fixated on getting his carriers at this point? At this point in the game, YOU WILL NOT WIN THAT BATTLE. It is really that simple. You are making the classic mistake of fixating on the point of his strength, and missing the vastness of his weakness. The downside of concentration for him is that every other point on the map is not threatened by KB. Don't wring your hands in frustration, lick you chops at the opportunity!



Mistmatz -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/18/2011 1:54:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin
...

July 14 1942. The force that got stonked had six CVs. I lost two early trying to knock out the KB in narrow seas off Borneo. That was before he learned to run a heavy SAG ahead.

I have been pushing elsewhere.



That seems to answer the original question. Too little, too early.

Maybe bad dice on top of it, but it appears you were too confident and/or too aggressive without being willing to accept potentially disastrous consequences.

Trying this stunt twice doesn't help either. [;)]

If there is any advice I would give to a PBEM player it would be to play as if you really were the commander in chief, with all the consequences, and no replays. That will take some of the grand (unrealistic?) moments of the game away, but it will be a lot more immersive.






topeverest -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/18/2011 3:03:55 AM)

Icedawg,

I didnt advocate 20 seperate picket TF's. That's probably gamey in the sense that the combat routine will divert more air assets to attack the pickets than most humans would ever order. I suggest a handful at most to cover the various forward approaches outside search range. This is especially useful for the allies, as they dont have Jake loaded AV's to search. It also applies to empire when you are traversing an expanse with limited or no LBA coverage.

Such tactics come at a cost of likely losses if you encounter enemy forces, so there is no free lunch in this tactic. You need ships that can match the Full speed of the TF, as a result it usually is DD's that take on the role...and take attritional losses.

Far more gamey is sending a small SCTF with at least one cruiser ahead of the carriers in the turn you expect combat for the sole purpose of absorbing air hits. That will divert many enemy air assets away from your carriers and can tip major battles if your enemy doesnt do the same thing. That in my mind is a no-no.



Icedawg -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/20/2011 4:58:54 PM)

This sounds reasonable. I thought you were talking about sending a screen of single ship TFs one or two hexes in front of your CV TF and using them to absorb the air attacks. By sailing a solid 5 or 6 hexes ahead of your carriers, you are making it impossible for your carriers to hit the enemy on the same turn your pickets get pummeled.



Shark7 -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/20/2011 5:42:12 PM)

I've often found that the best way to win carrier combat is to avoid carrier combat. Try to lure the enemy into a place where you have LB air superiority and let the LB fighters and bombers wear it down. After a couple of rounds of that, you might just be able to get in a decent carrier based strike. You just have to make the bait enticing enough.

The key is knowing when to fight, and knowing when to 'Shoot and Scoot'. That is, raid somewhere to make your opponent respond to you...a diversion if you will.



herwin -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/20/2011 7:16:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

I've often found that the best way to win carrier combat is to avoid carrier combat. Try to lure the enemy into a place where you have LB air superiority and let the LB fighters and bombers wear it down. After a couple of rounds of that, you might just be able to get in a decent carrier based strike. You just have to make the bait enticing enough.

The key is knowing when to fight, and knowing when to 'Shoot and Scoot'. That is, raid somewhere to make your opponent respond to you...a diversion if you will.


I've been trying that. He doesn't lure. Too many mousetrappings have made him careful.



pmath -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/20/2011 9:22:13 PM)

Concentration of the Jap carriers has been referred to as the death star approach. You do not go near the death star in the first 18 mos of the war. You can look for opptys to attrit his planes and pilots with LBA, but in general leave the field to the death star except judicious LBA opportunities. Concentrating his carriers involves advantages for the savvy Allied leader. 1st its hard to hide a death star, particularly if it travels with slower CVLs so as mentioned above pick a spot far from the DS and bring your forces to bear. Just don't burrow in. 2 The Japs have a delicate time table,look for opptys to disrupt it.



topeverest -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/22/2011 12:12:14 AM)

Massed KB is a bit of a challenge. As several have said, you dont fight it unless you can significantly augment with LBA. You also dont invade when the KB whereabouts are unkown or known to be nearby. You need to use deception and make the enemy choose between two invasions far apart. This means that you need to think through your LBA and base force strategy thoroughly and well in advance.

Also, a massed KB probably means athe dreaded super defensive amphibious pulse too. So when you invade, you need to be ready for the KB to show up, cause it prpobably will. This means short jump tactics and massed LBA with high naval attack skills.

Said another way, have patience and discipline.



spence -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/22/2011 12:59:18 AM)

quote:

I can do this. The problem with the massive KB is that it can put 135-150 Zeros into the air without breathing hard.


IRL though no one was in charge of this massive CAP. 12 different officers on 12 different ships are launching and recovering CAP whenever they feel like it without reference to the Fleet Commander's priorities. As is amply illustrated in "Shattered Sword" that more than any other single factor kept the KB from spotting and launching an anti-ship strike in time to prevent the loss of the initial 3 carriers at Midway.

Furthermore, with no one in control of the 135-150 CAP or even within the squadron themselves it would be likely to engage any target that got spotted with absolutely nothing held in reserve (again as in Midway). And again (as in Midway) the CAP ignored the Yorktown SBDs and concentrated entirely against the Yorktown TBDs (and escort). The CAP at the time the SBDs arrived on the scene was the largest of the entire morning.

The Japanese Navy never developed a better system for handling their CAP than trusting to the "warrior spirit". The KB (and maybe Ryujo but surely none of the other CVLs/CVEs) was a fine instrument for applying massed firepower. But it lacked any development of a defensive doctrine whatsoever throughout the entire war. It's defensive prowess is purely (and wrongly) a function of the game system.

Although the KB could claim two Pyrrhic victories in the early going (Coral Sea and Santa Cruz) its RL overall performance hardly justifies the game performance accorded it. It never walked away from any battle with its air groups worthy of another fight...it never provided Japan with a decent enough victory in CV combat to allow exploitation of its so-called victory.



Panjack -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/23/2011 2:46:23 PM)

What is this "SAG" many speak of?

(I have searched the forum and got many hits for "SAG," but none explained the term nor the use of said SAG.)



Roger Neilson II -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/23/2011 2:50:47 PM)

Surface Action Group - slightly more modern term I think but used a lot here.

Roger



derhexer -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/26/2011 4:00:43 AM)

"He may be pounding your bases one at a time, but he's not sinking a single one of them. He's burning gobs and gobs of fuel, so try to keep him moving, either by carrot or stick. You don't defeat the massed KB by CV air until you have fully upgraded all of your CVW's with next generation planes, Hellcats, etc. Until then, you try to pick away at the massed KB with LBA if he strays close enough, and with SS's. As frustrating as it is to watch dud after dud dent the side of enemy ships, it's just as scary for your opponent to see it, if the ships in question are his precious CV's. Remember, you will get many more, he will not. "

Get your subs in there. Try to put in packs of 2-3. I've seen Jap CVTFs break off an attack because subs were in the area. I've also managed to pick off a Jap carrier or two with submarines.




herwin -> RE: How the hell do you take down the Japanese carriers if they stay concentrated? (6/26/2011 7:27:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: derhexer

"He may be pounding your bases one at a time, but he's not sinking a single one of them. He's burning gobs and gobs of fuel, so try to keep him moving, either by carrot or stick. You don't defeat the massed KB by CV air until you have fully upgraded all of your CVW's with next generation planes, Hellcats, etc. Until then, you try to pick away at the massed KB with LBA if he strays close enough, and with SS's. As frustrating as it is to watch dud after dud dent the side of enemy ships, it's just as scary for your opponent to see it, if the ships in question are his precious CV's. Remember, you will get many more, he will not. "

Get your subs in there. Try to put in packs of 2-3. I've seen Jap CVTFs break off an attack because subs were in the area. I've also managed to pick off a Jap carrier or two with submarines.




Working on it.



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