RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (Full Version)

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JJKettunen -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/25/2011 12:01:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chliperic

I wonder if a bonus of 35 VP is right or too high or too low. Let me know your VP results for those achieving a FY game. That's the best way to fine tune FY on this point.



My latest save attached. It might help a bit.

I'm still of the opinion that the Greens are a bit too active. Just look at the Green monster state NE of Moscow! [X(]




JJKettunen -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/25/2011 11:37:30 AM)

Damn, the Reds are not going down without a fight! Counterattacks at Tula simply crushed Denikin's forces and another one caused a defeat to Cossacks at Tambov, effectively halting my summer offensive! [:@]

Gotta love this game. [8D]




Chilperic -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/25/2011 12:06:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chliperic

I wonder if a bonus of 35 VP is right or too high or too low. Let me know your VP results for those achieving a FY game. That's the best way to fine tune FY on this point.



My latest save attached. It might help a bit.

I'm still of the opinion that the Greens are a bit too active. Just look at the Green monster state NE of Moscow! [X(]



I'm looking at, but I will not be able to draw some conclusions before tonight, because I've some other business to do in RL . I'm inclined to believe you're right, but I want to think deeper about too




Chilperic -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/25/2011 12:19:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

Damn, the Reds are not going down without a fight! Counterattacks at Tula simply crushed Denikin's forces and another one caused a defeat to Cossacks at Tambov, effectively halting my summer offensive! [:@]

Gotta love this game. [8D]


Me too. That's my motive to work on. Never think the AI is off. Red AI may remain dangerous until the end, because of the sheer number of Red units and the AI ability to concentrate them on a crucial point. This one is due on the generic AI, when and only when you have taught the AI about the map key points of a AGE game. Germany isn't Russia and Germany in 1756 isn't Germany in 1741. My intervention is limited to this. It's not mcuh, but it's just essential too. [:)]




Chilperic -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/25/2011 5:09:14 PM)

Why Regional decisions aren’t available on the first turn in FY?

As the question has been raised in another forum I will not use anymore ( except for reading because of patches and bugs reports), I will reply here. He would have been much simpler to ask directly to me or on a forum where I may reply, but there are so much things bizarre in life :-)

First, for the Southern Whites, the question is irrelevant as they don't control anyone of the key regions for implementing conscriptions or requisitions at the start off the GC.

Then , Siberians: as I've explained, they begin the game with huge new units coming by events into play in the first turns of the game. These units aren't equipped, armed and fed from nothing. So, to balance the game, with overpowered Siberian, I decided to allow RGDs for this faction from the 4th tuern.

Last, Reds. Bosheviks were convinced to have won the Civil war in May 18. They were struck by surprise with the Czech Legion incident, Komuch appearance, and unexpected offensive in the Kuban with the tiny Denikin's force. As Rgds represent abstractly an eexceptional effort to support larger war operations, it wasn't right to allow Bolsheviks to undertake them before the danger erupted, ie at the beginning of the second turn.

This change hasn't a relation to AI behaviour. One point some are missing is FY isn't an AI mod. It's a mod whose first objective belongs to enhancing my gaming experience. Yes, mine. A good mod or a good game is always one his creator/dev/modder plays and like playing. If not, it becomes either a pure engine development, and a great engine isn't producing by itself great games, or a simple way to earn money. AACW or BOA were very enjoyable game because the GC were great scenarios. Hannibal is a game which has obviously been played by his dev.

SO where is my pleasure? First by having something close too reality. Mileage may vary of course on the exact level of realism. Let's say I'm convinced a great game isn't the most detailed but the one seizing even by abstract ways, the flavour of the period.

Let me take one example: the official RUS version limits requisitions and conscriptions to areas where loyalty is 51% at worst for you...Game killer for me. Why requisitions, which are just stealing goods, can't be done in conquered regions? Realism is for me dead here, and I wouldn't play it, as I will never play a Paradox game, not because they are poor games but because they have turned down for long any real care for the minimal realism concern I expect.

Then, and only then, I enjoy games when the opposition is strong. Playing ROP 1.1 or NCP, I just felt I had won against AI after the first 15 turns, the glossy errors of my computer opponent being not only fatal for it, but just incredible, the worst general in the history having never actedas poorly.

A good AI is for me the condition to have a credible simulation of the reality of the war. When boardgame values belongs only in the rules, the computer wargame has to deal with AI behaviour to create this feeling of simulation of RL I'm looking for.

I know how to reach partially the second point. If not, I would play other games.

I could add many things: the King AAR is vbased on the idea it's gamey to provoke Green revolts by gds on regions about to be conquered by another faction. I just think this idea is historically wrong; most of the requisitions and conscriptions were done immediatly in the vicinity of the fronts and both sides used agitators and propaganda to raise peasants revolts without having on them a crisp political and military control. Often, the armed bands would reveal themselves a future annoyance for those having helped to create them... And a green revolt was sometimes just the result of a Bolshevik subversion effort undertaken under a fake ideological identity, when communism wasn't popular. Politics are complex, and I've learnt how Russians are gidted in politics, shadow hands and all this stuff...

So the practice is just gamey in his mind. On gameplay purpose, it's of course a player's rational decision when the reality was just a blend of necessity, bad luck, wrong appreciation of reality, or unexpected defeat. In any case, it reinforces the realism of FY. Talk to Denikin of the Green bands on the rear of his advancing forces in October 19, or to trotski about the armed bands of Siberia, who plagued the country with rampant banditism until 1924-1925. The Makhno history, once you have debunked myth, is just that: a band of peasants Reds tried to use because of necessity but who had their own agenda. the only difference with some Green movements was the Anarchist ideology they adopted. Other Green movements were used by Reds, or Whites. That's all.That's much about the differences between FY and the regular RUS.




Chilperic -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/25/2011 7:48:21 PM)

For those having tried Fatal Years


There are 2 polls on this blog, one for those having liked it, the second for those having disliked.





I don’t search huge audience, and I’ve no intention to use these anonymous polls in other way than my own interest. It’s not a plebiscite about , or even something I will use as an ad. I’ve reached what I was looking for.



But after all, this mod is public and there is always to learn from feedback from those having tried. I’m not scared if a vast majority is saying FY isn’t good. I’m enjoying what I’ve done and I will just have confirmation what I like isn’t shared by a majority of you. On the contrary, I will not believe I’m Sid Meier or the greatest modder of all times. In both case, I will do and release SVF 2.0.

However, some of your reply may help me to discover new ideas or other ways to create events in SVF, if I like them.



So the polls are here:

http://moddercorner.com/2011/08/04/why-are-you-not-playing-fatal-years/

http://moddercorner.com/2011/08/04/why-are-you-playing-fatal-years/




Chilperic -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/26/2011 7:42:04 AM)

New version tonight or tomorrow: depends of RL business [;)]




JJKettunen -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/26/2011 11:21:07 AM)

Yay!




Chilperic -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/26/2011 12:22:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

Yay!


And Tula? [:)] Yet a Red fortress? I will add something for Tua, as it was the foirst armement center for REd during RCW, BTW.




JJKettunen -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/26/2011 2:26:31 PM)

Haven't been able to continue today yet, but yes, Tula is heavily fortified, and I managed to breach it before my troops were kicked out of there.

[sm=comp16.gif]




JJKettunen -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/26/2011 4:13:14 PM)

Can't say I agree with below statement. [;)]

[image]local://upfiles/5859/71BB4576F53D4309B88F4F3F950A0726.jpg[/image]




JJKettunen -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/26/2011 4:16:04 PM)

Scores and objectives:

[image]local://upfiles/5859/8AAE300FA38B4E638FBBDDDBD0CEFDB6.jpg[/image]




JJKettunen -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/26/2011 4:20:06 PM)

And the last turn for Clovis to check:




JJKettunen -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/26/2011 4:35:20 PM)

Some observartions:

I made a somewhat gamey last turn all-out assault on Petrograd which caused a lot of casualties for me, but I had to give it a try because the city was struggling with supplies when nearby regions were enemy controlled, including Kronstadt.

In the end I had dozens of surplus supply units (allied aid) for which I didn't have any use. I could have build a depot to every city, or perhaps even every region easily, but it wasn't worth the bother.

SW side doesn't ever have to use conscription-options because there's enough coming from regions and prisoners. Money is the only bottleneck.

While I'm not an expert of RCW, I have hard time believing that the Greens could militarily control such large areas as in the game. My idea would be one big Tambov-like revolt (with proper leaders), and then numerous small detachments all over the place harassing the other factions - not division sized detachments as of now. But it is just my idee fixe, and I trust Clovis on this matter. [:)]

I think I'll restart the campaign later with Siberians before moving on to DNO. [8D]




Juhahal -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/26/2011 5:18:20 PM)

Hi

I am long time fan of ageod games and quite new fan of the fatal years(i hope that you continue tweaking your mods) .  I play mostly red side and i have must say that  I agree keke about greens. those bastards are some what game breaker even if i try to play mr nice guy and do all reforms and keep loyalty over 60-65 percent. Usually i have to dispatch full army(1000-1500) to control middle russia .  This wouldn't be huge problem but soon or later generals will be start to dying like flies and game isn't fun any more. I have not problem over powered whites, siberians  or polish but those green's are just pain in ass when appearing in near moscow in 20000 stacks.

Vive la revolution! vive la fatal years![&o]






Chilperic -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/26/2011 5:20:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

Some observartions:

I made a somewhat gamey last turn all-out assault on Petrograd which caused a lot of casualties for me, but I had to give it a try because the city was struggling with supplies when nearby regions were enemy controlled, including Kronstadt.

In the end I had dozens of surplus supply units (allied aid) for which I didn't have any use. I could have build a depot to every city, or perhaps even every region easily, but it wasn't worth the bother.

SW side doesn't ever have to use conscription-options because there's enough coming from regions and prisoners. Money is the only bottleneck.

While I'm not an expert of RCW, I have hard time believing that the Greens could militarily control such large areas as in the game. My idea would be one big Tambov-like revolt (with proper leaders), and then numerous small detachments all over the place harassing the other factions - not division sized detachments as of now. But it is just my idee fixe, and I trust Clovis on this matter. [:)]

I think I'll restart the campaign later with Siberians before moving on to DNO. [8D]

quote:

oesn't ever have to use conscription-options because there's enough coming from regions and prisoners. Money is the only bottle


Very interesting remarks for balance. [:)] Some work is needed. Thanks[:)]

You haven't "idee fixe" but a point maybe important. What is more important: you try to prove your point, not only be general declarations but by currently playing the game. That's just what defines a betatester in the normal world, the one where bugs are searched before release and balance considerations addressed partially too before the 1.0 version. I'm not always right ( I' even often wrong, if not FY would have been perfect from my first try [:D] ). But I'm as any touchy looney [;)], i need much to be convinced.




Chilperic -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/26/2011 5:22:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jussuf

Hi

I am long time fan of ageod games and quite new fan of the fatal years(i hope that you continue tweaking your mods) .  I play mostly red side and i have must say that  I agree keke about greens. those bastards are some what game breaker even if i try to play mr nice guy and do all reforms and keep loyalty over 60-65 percent. Usually i have to dispatch full army(1000-1500) to control middle russia .  This wouldn't be huge problem but soon or later generals will be start to dying like flies and game isn't fun any more. I have not problem over powered whites, siberians  or polish but those green's are just pain in ass when appearing in near moscow in 20000 stacks.

Vive la revolution! vive la fatal years![&o]






At least, I will lower probabilities of Green revolts and/or limiting size of Green armies at start. I'm going to think yet a bit about, but from what I've seen from Keke's save, there are indeed some Green aspects to iron out.

Thanks for the input [:)]




Chilperic -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/26/2011 7:58:29 PM)

I've found a bug. [:D]

Indeed, I've forgotten to substract prisoner number from the prisoner pools for events belonging to prisoner empressment in Faction ranks...That's why Keke didn't have use of conscriptions.

Sorry for this. Next version soon.




Chilperic -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/26/2011 9:43:54 PM)

New version uploaded on my blog ( see my sig)

What's new?

- 2 new portraits from Nikel. Thanks for him[:)]

- fixed a bug in the events regulating prisoner impressment in faction ranks.

- lowered probability of Green revolts, and size of the initial Green Forces when a rebellion occurs. Beware: The reduction isn't maybe yet sufficient. If necessary, I'm ready to go lower according to your reports. This is a first step

- Both Whites factions will receive less supply wagons from Foreign help events. On the contrary, events giving foreign help in money and WSU will keep the same rate, and money is now 80 rather than 40, for balance purpose.

Thanks again to the reports [:)]




JJKettunen -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/26/2011 10:30:54 PM)

Cheers!




Chilperic -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/26/2011 11:01:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

Can't say I agree with below statement. [;)]

[image]local://upfiles/5859/71BB4576F53D4309B88F4F3F950A0726.jpg[/image]


Oups. I forgot to see this bug. I've not checked, but it's certainly a bug of the official version...We'll have to wait hopefully the 1.04 offcial version to get this screen fixed.It feels like the pON system implemented in the different RUS engine. Why your score is compared to Poland one is just beyond any mod glitch IMHO.

So you're largely victorious, considering the NM difference.. Felicitations [:)] Now, with the correction of the prisoner bug you will have had maybe some more difficulties. I agree Green rampaging is beyond reasonable expectations. To be toned down indeed. For balance purpose, Greens must remain a real but secondary menace for any faction.

On the contrary, I think Greens must be able to seize some regional capitals. Unhistorical but it fits with the regional decisions system of RUS, these decisions being enforcable in areas where a faction owns the primary city. By taking this region, Greens may block regional decisions.

Any prospective to change this rule would reveal too cumbersome. It's possible, as RGDs in RUS are just the same than Colonization decisions in PON, and they have many much features than currently used in RUS. However, there is no way to resume in a in game sheet the areas where the average military control would allow implementation of a requisition or conscription. So the GUI being lacking here, it would be for players a nightmare to compute where they have this possibility...




Chilperic -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/27/2011 2:17:31 PM)

This is going to be added to the FY rules document.

AI Settings



Recommended:

[image]http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/3339/aisettings.jpg[/image]

Don’t forget too the Activation rule in the Game tab: the middle box is the best setting (large movement an d combat penalties for unactivated leaders). BTW, the setting hindering any move for unactivated leaders doesn’t fit well with the RCW, contrary to the XVIIIth and XIXth Centuries.



Why a +2 bonus to FOW for AI? Cheating? If you want have the same vision of the map the AI has, go under the desk and pop up your head through a region to look the map, and repeat this will all regions… The AI doesn’t think, read, believe or predict. The AI computes values and chooses among valued options summarizing these different values. In the end, it will give you sometimes the illusion to fight aagainst a brain, when you will be faced by several equations.

To feed the equations, the data must be more detailed, hence this bonus.



Changing AI setting values:



You’re enticed to think FOW bonus is a cheat and to give no bonus to the AI. Its performance should be slighty lower, but very acceptable.

For those having in their first games difficulties against AI ( Southern Whites at start are really fragile), don’t forget you may use the Private rank in AI ranking settings, giving to AI penalties for movement and battle.





About AI in Fatal Years: what you can expect

Fatal Years isn’t only an AI mod. He tries too, rightly or wrongly, to be more accurate, more historical.

Only great designs, like Hannibal, may succeed in being both historical and AI strong. I’ve not this gift.

I’ve chosen to have as first priority to introduce what I felt like needed historical facts. The second is to have the AI playing with the same rules than an human player.

To take one example, FY has solved the overpowered Siberian Whites unbalance described by some in the official game. The Siberian AI suffers the same penalties for the essential.

So, as I can’t create an AI better than a human player , the AI performance must be assessed mainly against historical performance. In this sense, White AIs must be defeated by a Red player before the end of 1920. I can’t even imagine a White AI able to win against a Red player. On the contrary, a White player surviving until 1922 has at least done better than in history.

I will never curb the reality or introduce cheating for AI to balance a game. To balance, it’s better for the player to choose to give bonus to AI( possible in the option settings) beyond the recommended +2 bonus for Fog of War .

On my own, I will certainly introduce, when I will have more data about real outcomes of game, a VP bonus for a side after the historical game. By example, it could be a bonus to Whites AI or in PBEM after 1920 in VP each turn. This would balance the game against AI without altering the historical settings. Many boardgames are using this sort of balance. They don’t reduce the size of the Red Army in 1945 and reinforce German one to create a balanced scenario about the Balltle of Berlin. They alter Victory conditions. Computer wargames should be more inspired by boardgame design lessons.

So for FY:

Southern Whites will get 35 VP s by turn after August 1920,

Siberian Whites will get 35 VPs after March 1920,

To the condition for each to have a NM superior to 60.




Chilperic -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/27/2011 5:16:39 PM)

New version of Fatal Years available...

Yes, available on my blog ( see my sig)

I’ve forgotten to add an event file into the last version.An ai events file, so upgrade is mandatory.

Compatible with ongoing games.

Sorry.




Chilperic -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/27/2011 6:05:45 PM)

I Play Reds, July 18.

I’m moving back my forces to Ekaterinodar and Stavropol. I have forgotten to protect Novorossiysk on the coast…

Southern Whites Skhuro ‘s White Wolves has captured the harbour in my back….

I wasn’t expecting this flanking move. That’s one I try when I play the Southern Whites however :-)


[image]http://struggleformodding.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/southern-attack.jpg[/image]




gamer78 -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/27/2011 7:03:20 PM)

As playing Reds I think Polikov force knows where Caucasus army will retreat after the battle in the first turn (Maloorlovsky 99 % chance)[;)] That is poor evil ! [:D]

Simbirsk division appeared in the first turn has discipline rating 3 including concript types and veterans. Edit: Now they have 4-5 cacassuans have 3 . I will figure it out how. [:)]

There 2 "cossacks recruit option in tzaritzin" for Reds.






Chilperic -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/27/2011 7:46:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baris



There 2 "cossacks recruit option in tzaritzin" for Reds.





I don't understand: have you really twice the same option? I checked my own REd test game: I've only one...Have you used it before? [&:]




gamer78 -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/27/2011 7:53:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chliperic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baris



There 2 "cossacks recruit option in tzaritzin" for Reds.





I don't understand: have you really twice the same option? I checked my own REd test game: I've only one...Have you used it before? [&:]



Oh Im sorry , There is only 1 option 4/7 [sm=Crazy-1271.gif] and this forum has interesting smileys . [:D]




Chilperic -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/27/2011 7:57:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baris

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chliperic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baris



There 2 "cossacks recruit option in tzaritzin" for Reds.





I don't understand: have you really twice the same option? I checked my own REd test game: I've only one...Have you used it before? [&:]



Oh Im sorry , There is only 1 option 4/7 [sm=Crazy-1271.gif] and this forum has interesting smileys . [:D]




Indeed

[sm=character0272.gif]

But I've found no baboons.

[sm=comp16.gif]




gamer78 -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/27/2011 8:20:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chliperic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baris

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chliperic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baris



There 2 "cossacks recruit option in tzaritzin" for Reds.





I don't understand: have you really twice the same option? I checked my own REd test game: I've only one...Have you used it before? [&:]



Oh Im sorry , There is only 1 option 4/7 [sm=Crazy-1271.gif] and this forum has interesting smileys . [:D]




Indeed

[sm=character0272.gif]

But I've found no baboons.

[sm=comp16.gif]


According to the scores I m number 1 in diplomatic rank in turn 6 as Reds. But there are some green revolts that I will take care of them diplomatically [sm=00000289.gif]




Chilperic -> RE: Fatal Years for 1.03 (8/27/2011 8:26:47 PM)



If you're referring to prst points, obviously a PON feature lost in RUS [:D], until you have chosen Military reform options, you will get VPs each turn. But the cohesion of your units will remain very low, only the choice of this option helping to raise cohesion little by little.




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