RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (Full Version)

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MateDow -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/12/2011 5:48:10 PM)

Some comments on the "Big 5" refits...

The reboilering of the ships would not have added speed to these ships.  Basically, the reduced weight of the boilers would be used to offset the increased weight of fire control equipment, increased dual-purpose and AAA batteries, and other improvements.  As a guide, look at the overhauls of the Pennsylvania or New Mexico class battleships.

If we are looking for a way to get them in the game without unbalancing the scenario, pull two of them out of service for the long, two year long rebuild.  Add them like you would ships transferring in from the Atlantic.  With the New Mexico, Mississippi and Idaho in place, there would not have been too much weakening of the Battle Force.  Use the refits done as a result of the Pearl Harbor damage as the template.  The third ship can receive refit as normal during the course of the game.

Remilitarize the Wyoming (Similar to Hiei) and leave her in the Atlantic until 1944.  No new artwork or models needed.  If you are looking for another extant ship, you have the former battleship Utah, but that would require artwork, and I doubt that the US would have expended the effort on that ship, but she might have been used as an AV or AS in the same method that the monitors were used during WW1, if the use a target ship would have not been militarily justified.

Instead of adding 1,500 ton destroyers to the Asiatic fleet, add additional 1,000 tonners (Clemson-class).  This will keep common spares and ammunition for the destroyers deployed to the Philippines.  Take them from the destroyers based at PH or from the pool of reserve destroyers.  It also adds the question of the status of the 50 destroyers traded to the UK for basing rights, and how would that figure into this alternative reality.  It would provide a source for additional DM, DMS or APD if desired.

Add the Pensacola to the Asiatic Fleet with the Boise.  Advance the progress of her convoy to have her in place on 7 December.  Give the Houston her radar set that was sitting on the dock in Cavite when the war started.

Those are my thoughts on some of the US naval aspect.



John 3rd -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/12/2011 8:06:29 PM)

Those are limited, NICE ideas. I like switching out a pair of the Big Five for refit and replacing them with the 3 New Mexico's.

The DD similarity for the Philippines makes excellent sense. We could also add the Convoy that Pensacola was escorting into Manila plus the LCUs. Makes a bunch of good, sound sense to me.



DOCUP -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/12/2011 10:15:47 PM)

Nice to see some action in this thread again.  I'd still like to see some speed to the old ladies.  Everyone likes fast ladies[:D].

doc



oldman45 -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/12/2011 11:27:02 PM)

I don't think that's where Pensacola was headed was it? I thought it was taking equipment to the south pacific. There was another convoy that was originating out of SF that was recalled. I thought that was the one that was supposed to go to the PI.



MateDow -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/13/2011 12:34:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

I don't think that's where Pensacola was headed was it? I thought it was taking equipment to the south pacific. There was another convoy that was originating out of SF that was recalled. I thought that was the one that was supposed to go to the PI.


That convoy was loaded with equipment for the PI and was diverted to Australia when the war broke out. Convoy 4002 departed PH on November 29 with the intent of transiting the Torres Strait enroute to Manila. On 8 December (Hawaii Time) this convoy was given orders to proceed to Sydney, then ordered back to Hawaii, then back south, finally receiving orders to Brisbane.

This convoy was loaded (is loaded in game?) with P-40s and A-24s for the Far Eastern Air Force, so this could provide an "excuse" to have more aircraft in the PI. It also had two regiments of artillery (147th & 148th), HQ for the 26th Artillery Brigade, 7th BG HQ, 88th Recon Sq (H), 38th Recon Sq (H), 453 Aviation Ord. Co, 340 Vehicles, 20 75mm guns, 6 37mm AT guns, plus supplies, ammunition and avgas.

Basically, this one convoy would give a boost to the Philippine Division, but probably not enough to significantly effect the Japanese schedule.



John 3rd -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/13/2011 5:28:14 AM)

MateDow: Thanks for the clarification. I could look but I imagine you have the exact ships in the convoy? This TF does provide the excuse for more P-40s, we'll add a Squadron of B-25, and a Squadron of A-24. Be a nice bump for the Allied player. Will have to figure out what to do with the LCUs but you are correct in that they would surely help the defense some.

DOCUP and Oldman: We're OK. You are correct that things have slowed down but FatR is getting work done. Figure we'll send the turn off for the French and Thai to added by Skyland and then decide what comes next. I think we're in pretty good shape at the moment.



AdmNelson -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/13/2011 5:41:58 AM)

How far are you out on finishing? French additions sound out cool.



MateDow -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/13/2011 6:50:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

MateDow: Thanks for the clarification. I could look but I imagine you have the exact ships in the convoy? This TF does provide the excuse for more P-40s, we'll add a Squadron of B-25, and a Squadron of A-24. Be a nice bump for the Allied player. Will have to figure out what to do with the LCUs but you are correct in that they would surely help the defense some.



Yes I do.

From the book Racing the Sunrise...

Pensacola - Escort
USS Republic
USS Chaumont
USS Niagra
USAT Willard A. Holbrook
USAT Meigs
SS Admiral Halstad
SS Coast Farmer
MV Bloemfontein

Units and Major Cargo Items
147th Field Artillery Regiment
148th Field Artillery Regiment (-2nd Battalion)
2nd Battalion of 131st Field Artillery Regiment
HQ & HQ Battery 26th Field Artillery Brigade
7th Bomb Group HQ & HQ Squadron
88th Recon Squadron (H)
38th Recon Squadron (H)
8th Material Squadron
36th Signal Platoon, AB
Company A, 91st QM Battalion (LM)
453rd Ordnance Company (Avn)(B)
Pilot Officers 21st & 34th Pursuit Squadrons (of 35th Group)

340 Vehicles
20 75-mm guns
6 37mm AT guns
Small Arms
52 A-24 Dive Bombers
18 P-40E Fighters
48 Model 1917 ("British") 75mm
123 0.30-cal mg
680,000 rounds 0.50-cal ammunition
3,000,000 rounds 0.30-cal ammunition
9,600 rounds 37mm AA ammunition
460 rounds 75mm shrapnel ammunition
5,245 bombs
6,000 drums of aviation oil
2,953 drums of aviation gas
Other supplies





John 3rd -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/13/2011 6:59:29 AM)

GREAT! Sounds like a pretty good resource. What is the full info on that book? Can always look for something to add to the library.



MateDow -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/13/2011 5:44:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

GREAT! Sounds like a pretty good resource. What is the full info on that book? Can always look for something to add to the library.



Racing the Sunrise: Reinforcing America's Pacific Outposts, 1941-1942
Glen Williford
Naval Institute Press



oldman45 -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/13/2011 5:48:41 PM)

No, the P40's and A24's are accounted for in the game. They are the provincial squadrons that form in Australia early in 42.



John 3rd -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/13/2011 6:20:10 PM)

Thanks OldMan. We'll have to figure this out. I like letting that reinforcement convoy make it to the Philippines. Certainly would help a bit. Will go through things and do a serious check on what can go where with it.

MateDow: I'll see about grabbing that book to add to the reference side of the library.



oldman45 -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/13/2011 10:59:28 PM)

The good news is, there are some B-17's sitting in PI with out a home. I will have to recheck my reference but I found it a few months ago. Added it to my mod as reserve planes attached to the HQ there.



DOCUP -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/14/2011 2:27:41 AM)

John and FatR, I didn't meaning anything by my last comment.  I also know  you guys are busy with the mod, PBEMs, and your real lives.

My appologies if I offended you all
doc



MateDow -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/14/2011 3:46:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

No, the P40's and A24's are accounted for in the game. They are the provincial squadrons that form in Australia early in 42.


I think it could be more interesting to have those in the PI at the beginning, and then figure out a source for Australia early in 1942. That is definitely an easier story to tell. I think that the units had different names, so you could add a new unit to the PI, and then have the unit for Australia arrive in SF for movement to a place where they are needed. It would give the Allied player flexibility in deployment, but the loss of that unit would greatly affect the defense of PM or other Australian territory until those units could be shipped in.

Fairly balanced solution (IMO), that gives the Allied player some advantage for increased tension, but still not over balancing their defense early.



oldman45 -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/14/2011 4:14:43 AM)

You can make the case to have the air-frames sent to the PI, the pilots were already there waiting. I forget if it was one or 2 squadrons worth of pilots.



MateDow -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/14/2011 5:39:26 AM)

I just found information on the proposed refits for the Big 5 battleships.

Here is the original plans from 1932...

Add 2" (50mm) of STS deck armor
Thicker turret tops
Improved Ammunition hoists (capable of using super-heavy shells?)
Modernized Fire Controls
2 Quad 1.1" AA Guns
Machinery Replaced to Maintain Speed (21 kts)
Blisters to Maintain draft (draught for those who spell in English)

Cost: 15 mil. including ordnance
Displacement: 35,600 tons

They would have received the same tower structure as the New Mexico-class battleships. Much less extensive refits than I suggested earlier, and they would have been started in 1933. The Depression meant that SecNav didn't even request the money.

In 1940, the King Board recommended the installation of twin 5"/38 DP guns with the increase in horizontal armor. Blisters would have been installed to maintain draft. This was delayed because of the world situation. This would be closer to the modernization that was suggested above.




Skyland -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/16/2011 6:42:19 PM)

I was thinking about the french BBs.

If no armistice, it makes 9 BBs available in summer 1940 :
A - 2 old semi-modernized : Courbet class (12x305 mm guns)
B - 3 old modernized : Bretagne class (10x340mm)
C - 2 modern BC : Strasbourg class (8x330mm)
D - 2 recent : Jean-Bart (not completed - second 380mm turret missing among other things) and Richelieu (8x380mm)

Don’t want to unbalance too much the game but i think we could consider that :
- Some (2?) A or B class ships could arrive end 1945 ?
and /or
- Richelieu is arriving in 1942 vs 1944 ?

Bonus : Jean Bart completed as BBAA or CV (40-45 planes) and arriving in 1943 ?



John 3rd -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/18/2011 12:16:25 AM)

MateDow: I like you ideas and think we'll incorporate them into things.

Skyland: You have the Files--Right? If you are to ring more French to the late-war Party, how about the Strasbourg's? Nice, fast ships... How about bring Richelieu in during early-43? Say Feb--March? Don't the Brits get a CV sometime around them? She could be added at that point? Update as you think about this...



Terminus -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/18/2011 1:36:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyland

I was thinking about the french BBs.

If no armistice, it makes 9 BBs available in summer 1940 :
A - 2 old semi-modernized : Courbet class (12x305 mm guns)
B - 3 old modernized : Bretagne class (10x340mm)
C - 2 modern BC : Strasbourg class (8x330mm)
D - 2 recent : Jean-Bart (not completed - second 380mm turret missing among other things) and Richelieu (8x380mm)

Don’t want to unbalance too much the game but i think we could consider that :
- Some (2?) A or B class ships could arrive end 1945 ?
and /or
- Richelieu is arriving in 1942 vs 1944 ?

Bonus : Jean Bart completed as BBAA or CV (40-45 planes) and arriving in 1943 ?


1944 at the earliest. She could only have been completed in the US and there were plenty of things to keep the American shipyards occupied.

If there's interest, I've attached a zip file with ship art for a Jean Bart CV.



John 3rd -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/18/2011 4:31:29 AM)

OK. Terminus has a point. Skyland--If you want please use the Art Terminus supplied unless you have something already done.

Could you also Post here when your work is done as well as your choices of what goes where and when? Thanks for the volunteer work!

Stanislav and I exchanged emails and he likes the work done over here. He will continue the work on the Japanese side and then I'll corrdinate and handle the Allied perspective.



John 3rd -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/18/2011 4:38:54 AM)

Just reading the On-Site Production Ideas and I come back to a couple of simple thoughts:

1. How about we simply allow a slight increase in production with some of the models? Bump F4F, SBD, Devastator, PBY, Buffalo, P-40, and Hurricanes a little?

2. Add some more to the pools--particularly for the older, near obsolete models starting Dec 7th?

3. See if we can do something with the convoys bringing in a supply and reinforcement LCUs and add airframes. Not sure how possible that is...

Correspondingly--JUST LIKE WHAT WE DO IN RA--we should drop Allied starting Supply and Fuel to compensate.





Skyland -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/18/2011 4:11:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

OK. Terminus has a point. Skyland--If you want please use the Art Terminus supplied unless you have something already done.

Could you also Post here when your work is done as well as your choices of what goes where and when? Thanks for the volunteer work!

Stanislav and I exchanged emails and he likes the work done over here. He will continue the work on the Japanese side and then I'll corrdinate and handle the Allied perspective.



Ok i will.
Target is to send back the database before Thursday. About 60% done now.



DOCUP -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/18/2011 4:41:00 PM)

John
I thought we were going to wait for the Japanese AC to be ironed out before starting on the Allied?

You gave on-site production a good try. Your Ideas sound good.

doc

edit: What about some more A24s[:)] Please



oldman45 -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/18/2011 5:59:49 PM)

I have side and shill for the Jean Bart AAA version. Its a killer over 4k AAA value [X(]



John 3rd -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/18/2011 8:07:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

John
I thought we were going to wait for the Japanese AC to be ironed out before starting on the Allied?

You gave on-site production a good try. Your Ideas sound good.

doc

edit: What about some more A24s[:)] Please


We are for the most part. Since Skyland had already Posted his stuff on both sides of tHE Threads I thought we could get him to have it added while we work in other areas. REALLY appreciate his willingness to jump in with both Thai and French!

On-Site continues to roll around. The convoys might be the easiest solution as well as bumping a few of the airframes mentioned above. Would PREFER more but I don't know what is feasible...

Lots of PMs and contributions here. Thanks everyone and PLEASE keep the ideas flowing.

Question I have is there someone out there who might be willing to take a crack at the on-map production by building new sites on the board? Am simply trying to see what our options are at the moment...



kfsgo -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/18/2011 9:57:56 PM)

Here's one possible framework for you:

[img]http://i.imgur.com/Bp19V.jpg[/img]

Scen

It's using the special 'on-map' aircraft I posted in the other thread. There's no reason it needs to, particularly, just be aware that most standard aircraft don't have upgrade paths, so you'd have to change that if you wanted factories to produce more than one model as the game progresses - also, this way the CW production can flow to UK, Aus, NZ etc; if you're using stock aircraft you would have to set these up separately.

There is no possibility of drawing any external supply (the numbers are supply cost - I think it's under 30 that supply won't move, but since it peters out completely before reaching any other bases...), so no need for house rules etc - production is limited by design. No innate supply production - what you start out with is what you get. In theory you could fly a tiny amount in, I suppose, if you were willing to make an engineer unit walk all the way up there on air supply and then keep it working on air supply. Waste of time, though. Left alone with no interaction from the user it will repair a couple of factories per day, picked at random; you'll end up with 2-3 ac/month on each of the types. Bit pointless, really. If you choose to specialise, you get more of specific aircraft.

That setup (30,000 supplies) allows you to bring 2 out of the 11 production lines up to full speed. You can provide more supply, or less; or more factories, or less; just remember to increase the "port" size so any supplies over the appropriate cap don't spoil.

I tried to set up production across different bases such that it'd cost more to activate certain factories, but supply wastage doesn't work the way I thought it did so it didn't work out.



John 3rd -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/19/2011 3:08:38 PM)

kfsgo: Do you want a job? [8D]

Is there a place on the map for Commonwealth production similar to what you show above for the Americans?



kfsgo -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/19/2011 3:54:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

kfsgo: Do you want a job? [8D]

Is there a place on the map for Commonwealth production similar to what you show above for the Americans?



You can put factories anywhere - the Kittyhawk IA, Hurri II and DB-7B are CW aircraft in the example. (I put everything in one base for simplicity's sake). You could segregate by nationality with different bases, of course - if the intent is to separate production you'd probably want to create the new base somewhere where it can't draw supply from the US one; fortunately the map has lots of wasteland. Hell, you could put it in the Himalayas...



John 3rd -> RE: Tentative Allied Summary of Ideas (9/19/2011 6:01:06 PM)

OK. I'd like them separate. See if you can find a suitable location for the Commonwealth.

Like the numbers you picked for the repairs. Think we should pick the top 10 American needs and then, say, 5-8 Commonwealth.



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