RE: Midway

RE: Midway (Full Version)

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darbycmcd -> RE: Midway (8/25/2011 7:23:27 PM)
Harry, I think you are sort of looking at this the wrong way. Would the game exactly recreate the EVENTS of Midway, no. Would it create the OUTCOME of Midway, given an operationally accurate setup I would expect it would. What you would have is two carrier forces, undetected, approaching Midway. The Japanese air would be set to 'naval' with secondary 'airbase'. Your first assumption, that Midway would not detect the Japanese, is wrong from my experience. Even relatively poorly trained B17 pilots would detect KB I believe, at least by being shot at! They are set to 'naval attack' with a search 30 in the approach arc. Now it is just a matter if Japanese search (only float planes from CA) would detect the American TF in the AM phase. maybe yes, maybe no. But it is not at all a given they would. Lets assume no, off goes the Japanese strike to Midway, runs into some CAP, a bit of AA turbulence, back home a bit worse for wear, some planes damaged, some shot down. Now Midway launches some strikes at KB, including B17s, just a few. They don't do much but they do wear down CAP quite a bit (which is set low for Japanese by the way). So now come the uncoordinated American carrier attacks. They dribble and drabble in but CAP is worn down already. A couple carriers take a couple hits. Crap, they can't run ops now! So the PM phase happens and the more typical exchange of strikes goes on, the IJN does manage to get off a small strike and because they are generally pretty fair pilots, they put a couple torps into an American carrier which is finished off by a sub on its way home. The USN scrapes up what is left and manages to badly hit the remaining undamaged carrier. It just remains to finish them off the next day. I would say that is a totally plausible outcome in the game. It is not exactly Midway, but it is close enough. You just seem to be unhappy with the performance of LBA vs carriers, that is why you are so focused on 'Midway equals a carrier'

Kull -> RE: Midway (8/27/2011 9:51:50 PM)
About the only way to set up a "Midway Simulator" would be to have all the forces in the historical positions on the morning of June 4th, with Japanese carrier air all set to land attack first, with at least half having a secondary attack of airfield or somesuch (to reflect the fact that most were preparing for a second strike on Midway). And only the CAs set to perform the historical Naval Search pattern. Meanwhile the US CVs are all set for Naval attack (and they probably should know where KB is and be invisible themselves). Not sure this would be much fun to play, but that's the only way you're going to mimic the real life result that the Americans were expecting the Japanese CVs, but not the other way around. And as an aside, one of my big takeaways from Shattered Sword was a new-found appreciation of the role played by the land based attackers from Midway. Yes, the 5 different attacks were ineffectual from a "causing damage" perspective, but they kept the Japanese CVs busy with CAP exercises during the crucial early morning period from 7:10 to 7:30 and again from 7:50 to 8:30. It was impossible for the Japanese to service the CAP (by launching new aircraft and retrieving and rearming those in the air) AND bring a new strike package onto the deck (a 45 minute task, at best). By the time the last of the land-based American attacks had finished, the Japanese Midway strike force was back, and it took another 45 minutes to land the aircraft and stow them below. And almost immediately thereafter, at 9:17, the first of the US carrier based attacks had begun (Hornet's ill-fated TBDs), followed right away by the Enterprise torp squadron. Together, these two attacks kept the decks busy servicing CAP until 9:50, and by then it was far too late for anything other than dying. Nagumo should have sent off a 64 plane strike as soon as the American fleet was first spotted at 7:40, but the need to fend off a continuous series of American land-based air attacks kept him (and the carrier decks) otherwise occupied, and thus the only real Japanese opportunity for a significant counterstrike was never really an option. Pull the land based attackers out of this equation, and the Midway results would probably have been different (albeit a catastrophic ending for the Japanese was still the most likely outcome)

herwin -> RE: Midway (8/27/2011 11:15:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kull About the only way to set up a "Midway Simulator" would be to have all the forces in the historical positions on the morning of June 4th, with Japanese carrier air all set to land attack first, with at least half having a secondary attack of airfield or somesuch (to reflect the fact that most were preparing for a second strike on Midway). And only the CAs set to perform the historical Naval Search pattern. Meanwhile the US CVs are all set for Naval attack (and they probably should know where KB is and be invisible themselves). Not sure this would be much fun to play, but that's the only way you're going to mimic the real life result that the Americans were expecting the Japanese CVs, but not the other way around. And as an aside, one of my big takeaways from Shattered Sword was a new-found appreciation of the role played by the land based attackers from Midway. Yes, the 5 different attacks were ineffectual from a "causing damage" perspective, but they kept the Japanese CVs busy with CAP exercises during the crucial early morning period from 7:10 to 7:30 and again from 7:50 to 8:30. It was impossible for the Japanese to service the CAP (by launching new aircraft and retrieving and rearming those in the air) AND bring a new strike package onto the deck (a 45 minute task, at best). By the time the last of the land-based American attacks had finished, the Japanese Midway strike force was back, and it took another 45 minutes to land the aircraft and stow them below. And almost immediately thereafter, at 9:17, the first of the US carrier based attacks had begun (Hornet's ill-fated TBDs), followed right away by the Enterprise torp squadron. Together, these two attacks kept the decks busy servicing CAP until 9:50, and by then it was far too late for anything other than dying. Nagumo should have sent off a 64 plane strike as soon as the American fleet was first spotted at 7:40, but the need to fend off a continuous series of American land-based air attacks kept him (and the carrier decks) otherwise occupied, and thus the only real Japanese opportunity for a significant counterstrike was never really an option. Pull the land based attackers out of this equation, and the Midway results would probably have been different (albeit a catastrophic ending for the Japanese was still the most likely outcome) I suspect that's the real role of Midway Island.

mdiehl -> RE: Midway (8/28/2011 1:00:59 AM)
I was impressed by the Appendix in Shattered Sword that showed how hopelessly hosed the Japanese landing force was, and how they'd have to wade through waist deep water from the edge of the coral reef through a lagoon to get to shore. It'd have made Pickett's charge and Burnside's bridge seem like reasonable efforts. I always knew that Midway Island had functioned sort of like a rope-a-dope against the Japanese. It drew their attention and their efforts. Or as Patton had a habit of saying it held them by the nose so they could be kicked in the rear end. The thing that was really revealing to me about Shattered Sword was how utterly clugey Japanese plane handling and deck ops were. I had long wondered how they could be so good at attacking fixed positions and so horrid at "fluid" battles. Now I know.

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