Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v smokindave(Sov). 1.05 beta (Full Version)

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Q-Ball -> Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v smokindave(Sov). 1.05 beta (9/10/2011 7:05:19 PM)

My esteemed opponent Tarhunnas is unfortunately unable to pick up another game, so I accepted a challenge from Bletchley Geek, who has been active on the forums and contributed quite a bit.

I am playing the Germans; I actually prefer the Germans, but that Soviet game with Tarhunnas was helpful. I think you know more if you play both sides.

At any rate, here we go.

OPENING MOVES:

My opening moves were pretty standard stuff; the only real difference was in AGS, where I borrowed not one, but TWO Panzer Corps from Pz Gp 2.

With the changes in 1.05, I think the South becomes more important than before; all the Armaments are down there, so getting a move-on eastward is critical. I will likely send alot of Infantry reinforcements towards Leningrad, but anything mobile I am sending south of the Pripet. My main goal is to get to the Donbas cities before Winter, and toast Armaments there.

Armaments are everything now; if I am Soviet, I think I blow-off Heavy Industry and Vehicles, move the minimum on AFVs and planes, and spend everything moving Armaments.

AGS:

Important Question is how to use that extra Panzer Corps.

I needed one Pz Gp 2 corps to clear units north of Tarnopol, and free-up Pz Gp1s Panzers to make a run for the Romanian Border. The other one? I sent it to clear the Stalin line north of Proskurov. The Stalin Line is a string of level-2 forts along the rivers, that can be a bit of a pain IMO on turn 2. I felt clearing them was a good idea, and in the process killed 3 Fort Zones, which is easy POWs. I am curious if others have a different use. Another possibility is a drive on Rovno right away.

Pockets:

I formed pockets in the Baltics, West of Minsk, Bialystok, and the giant Lvov pocket. I also formed the one at Kovel; I like this pocket, because you can do it with only INFANTRY, which seems efficient.

By the time I posted this, I have already opened turn 2; every pocket has held. Of course, the Lvov pocket will take a few turns to liquidate, due to it's size, but also because I am moving alot of 17th Army around it to move Eastward, and leaving the rest to be mopped up by a single Infantry Corps, plus the Slovaks, Hungarians, and Romanians.

[image]local://upfiles/6931/CD780655B6624AA2B083250F93D8A0C7.jpg[/image]



CarnageINC -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/10/2011 7:53:34 PM)

Some day when you have time you really must show people how you do your Riga gambit.  I never seem to be able to pull it off when I practice the opening move.



Q-Ball -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/10/2011 10:08:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

Some day when you have time you really must show people how you do your Riga gambit.  I never seem to be able to pull it off when I practice the opening move.


The objective is to get two Panzer Divisions accross the Daugvina at x58, y35. You can do this by tracing a path that doesn't cross any rivers until the Daugvina, from the two northermost Panzer Divisions of AGN. You need to blast all the Soviet units in that pathway, including a Mech Corps, but those units are very very weak, and Infantry on hasty attack should do it for most of them. There is a tank unit further north that you can use a Mot Div to push, but again, one attack will do. Whatever you do, never attack with the Panzers until you get to Riga; use other units to pave the way.

If you can move those two divisions through the gaps between the rivers, cross at x58 y35, you can approach Riga from the east. By the time you get there, you will have 4 MPs in each division; enough to do 2 attacks in case the first one fails. The 2nd one always takes it.



wpurdom -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/10/2011 10:27:59 PM)

I have a request - that you update your railbuilding choices every so often.



Ketza -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/11/2011 5:19:54 AM)

Nice opening!

How much damage did you do to the Soviet Airforce?




bigbaba -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/11/2011 7:21:12 AM)

One of the best first Turns i saw in this Forum so far.

i count around 70 Soviet Divisions in different pockets.

I realy look forward to test the Riga Assault the Way you did it here and also the concentration in the South makes sense because of the increased Importance of Armament Points after the Patch.

But i dont know if its a good Idea not to destroy the entire Red Air Force (Espacialy the Bomber Units more in the Rear Area) . I always hate this Interdictions on my Panzerdivisions. Sometimes they cost MP and the CAP isnt in Position to prevent them in the first Turns.



ComradeP -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/11/2011 11:45:34 AM)

AGN's opening looks good, but I would've tried to get more units across the Daugava, as it's never as cheap to cross rivers as it is on turn 1 (well, unless they're frozen).

AGC's opening north of Minsk is somewhat risky, a lot would depend on where the routed units displace to.

AGS's opening might cause you some difficulties later on. Why you would want to pull 2 Panzer corps from AGC, yet not use either of them to clear a path for your infantry by moving to Rovno, but instead use them for a risky move to capture a couple of extra hexes(leaving a whole host of un-ZOC'ed hexes behind them that the Soviets can convert)? Sure, the Stalin line can cause some trouble, but not as much as infantry seriously lagging behind. Besides, any forward defence of the Stalin line generally just means another pocket on turn 2.

I'm not really sure why a number of people dislike going for Rovno on turn 1, as not moving closer to it slows your infantry down for at least a turn, and making sure your infantry can move in is generally more important than bagging a handful of extra Soviet divisions (which in this case, you didn't, you just possibly overextended your mobile units as a bit).



Q-Ball -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/11/2011 1:17:45 PM)

Turn 2: 6/25/41

Good feedback on the moves, I appreciate complements and crititicism.

COMRADE P: I don't know how to get more units across the Daugvina; I can get another Mot Div, but that's about it. I try not to use any MPs on attack for the Panzers, though I always find one Armored Division that needs a bump.

That pocket near Minsk I was worried about, but it held. In the South, he pulled out of Rovno anyway. The only thing about a drive on Rovno is that I hate to fight against the swamp, because it's very difficult to pocket troops; there is always an opening into the swamp.

AGN: This area is a problem already.

BG did an excellent job placing a number of units in Latvia, just east of Riga. He must have railed them in, because I think I blew-up NW front pretty good at the frontier. These units held well, and it took several hasty attacks before they routed. As a result, I had no spare MPs by the time I made Pskov.

Maybe the new morale rules helped, not sure (I realize they will hurt the Russkies later, but at the moment, they get a bump)

AGC: Very good forward defenses here as well.

A single Rifle Division withstood 5 retreats, and then got a hold on a Panzer Division. Order of Lenin for those guys! The Paras also proved tough against Hasty attacks.

I was able to reach the Dnepr, but not enough MPs to get across, and units on the other side prevented a ZOC from being exerted.

Next turn, I'll probably be short on fuel, and need to get the Infantry up to cause more damage.

MINSK is a problem; I could only have taken it this turn with Panzers, which I didn't want to do, so I isolated it, and next turn will have Infantry liquidate the 2 units there.



[image]local://upfiles/6931/FA1EB91F103A4F2ABB188CC6DA6076D2.jpg[/image]



Q-Ball -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/11/2011 1:35:51 PM)

Turn 2, South:

I am more happy with the progress here.

BG pulled back from Rovno, but his heaviest line was just east of Rovno, along the River. I instead went east from Proskurov, smashing the checkerboard. I managed to push enough units here and there to form 2 pockets totalling 10 Divisions. Most of the divisions are higher-quality, and most are mobile, so he'll lose alot of vehicles. Every little bit helps!

We were able to clear Vinnitsa, which unhinges his positions east of Rovno. He'll have to pull out of there, or risk being pinned against the Pripet. As the Russians, I know you have to be careful to not get Mobile units pinned against the Marsh with no RR access, because that is effectively a death sentence; they'll never be able to retreat through the marshes on foot (or "on truck" I guess).

There is not much visible east of my spearheads, so he'll likely pull back from the flanks, and rail/move stuff to the spearhead. He might think about a pullback to the Dnepr now, since I have rolled the Stalin line, and his best units.

The LVOV pocket will take a few turns to liquidate. The Romanian Mountain Corps are helping from the South, and the Hungarians and Slovaks should activate soon and be able to contribute.

Soviet Production: I will be posting updates on destroyed production. Minsk is toast of course, and Mogilev likely will be.

The first two turns the Soviet population does not migrate at all, so any cities you clear are "Free"; they do nothing for the Reds. From here on out, anytime I take something, it will send population eastward. This is part of the reason I was happy to clear Vinnitsa and Rovno.

HIWIS:

I am already seeing Hiwis accumulating in the pool. This adds extra interest to capturing POWs, because 8% of them become my guys. We alredy have 450,000 POWs, with another 20 or so divisions isolated, so I figure to have at least 40,000 pretty shortly.

We will add their uniqueness to our own

[image]local://upfiles/6931/64EC3C42D8BE450998A8302C19A3E95F.jpg[/image]



ComradeP -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/11/2011 4:19:02 PM)

I prefer to get units across the Daugava near the bend in the river, where the Airborne corps is. That way, you're both closer to the Pskov river (that is: the part where your chance of crossing is highest, namely north of the swamp hexes) as well as making sure you don't have a flank full of Soviet units that might cut your spearhead off, which might very well happen to you this turn. You can get a Panzer corps across the Daugava in that area on turn 1.

You're making some very, very risky moves in terms of the chance of your mobile units being cut off.

As stated, AGN's spearhead can be cut off fairly easily, depending on the MP's of Bletchley Geek's units, but 9 out of 10 times it should be possible.

Supply to Minsk could be restored from the north or south, if you're unlucky he might do both and cut off all AGC's mobile units aside from the Lehr brigade.

Restoring supply to Proskurov might also be possible for him, and he can just march back into Rovno. If there's a cavalry unit near Vinnitsa, AGS's spearhead in that area might also be cut off.

Given that turn 3 is the turn where your initial fuel reserves run dry, mobile units being cut off spells disaster. If both AGN's and AGC's spearhead would be cut off, which would in most cases be a realistic possibility given your dispositions, that would really mess with your timetable.

In short: you need better flank protection.



Flaviusx -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/11/2011 5:06:46 PM)

Southwestern Front is in real trouble here. Sov is going to have to heavily reinforce it. I'm doubting that an unreinforced AGN has the chops to take Leningrad in this game, but Qball is plainly going all in for industry in the south, so Leningrad is necessarily a sideshow given that strategy.

I do see a number of tasty counterattacking spots for the Soviets here. But not every Soviet player is as fanatical about hurling themselves against panzers as me...




jzardos -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/11/2011 5:41:25 PM)

How has the airbase supply in v1.05 worked out for the Soviets?  Has your opponent been trying to fly supplies to some of the pockets with airbases?  Like the one west of Minsk or in the south?



Flaviusx -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/11/2011 5:56:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jzardos

How has the airbase supply in v1.05 worked out for the Soviets?  Has your opponent been trying to fly supplies to some of the pockets with airbases?  Like the one west of Minsk or in the south?


Can't do this on the first two turns. Some of the testers did fool around with it before the code got changed. Costs a ton of bombers to pull off, literally hundreds per turn, and isn't sustainable. I myself strongly prefer to save those bombers for other missions, since they are usually all that is left for ground support and interdiction duty after the surprise attack -- the Sovs don't start with much tactical aviation, and most of it gets creamed on turn 1.



Q-Ball -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/12/2011 9:47:19 PM)

Turn 3

This turn gave me a headache, much of my own making. I really pushed my spearheads forward, and paid for it a bit. BG cut-off many of my spearheads; in the Center, this really helped him, but maybe not in the South.

SOUTH:

I'm doing this one first. When I opened the turn, it was chaotic; BG had successfully freed the pocket around Proskurov, but only by committing more reserves it seems.

This slowed my down, though all my Panzers that were NOT cut-off had very high MPs; most in the 45-50 range. This area is still close to Romania and Poland, and fuel supply is easy at this point. This helped me greatly, as we were able to turn a bad situation into a very good one.

20 Divisions were pocketed, and I think this time it will all hold. There are still at least 10 in the Lvov pocket; I keep moving infantry eastward rather than taking time to reduce; I figure they aren't going anywhere. The Slovaks and Hungarians are almost in play, and should finish those guys off.

Otherwise, you can see the map of progress this turn. The best elements of SW Front are surrounded, so I think we are off to a good start down here.

The other areas are not as rosy.....

Fighting Forward: I think fighting forward for the Soviets is a good idea, but I wonder if you shouldn't do it where the Germans will have plenty of MPs.

You will see that in AGN and AGC, fighting forward is helping B-G, but the difference is there I DON'T have high MPs, as I am operating at the limit of my fuel. That prevents me from doing much.

I wonder if the SW Front is better served pulling back to the Dnepr/Krivoi Rog, and fighting THERE. Allow the Germans to quickly gobble up space, but also reach the end of their logistical tether, and THEN fight.

[image]local://upfiles/6931/2A8CCE1DE7CE4C79970C24AA5E43121E.jpg[/image]



Flaviusx -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/12/2011 10:01:24 PM)

I'm getting thoroughly irritated by this whole Lvov pocket business and think it's time to make some changes here. It's just way too easy to pummel SW Front.






Q-Ball -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/12/2011 10:06:09 PM)

Turn 3: AGN and AGC:

..And now the Ugly. Here is where fighting forward seems to help.

LUFTWAFFE: I really have a problem with the Luftwaffe. I am not very good at managing Airpower; somehow, the Luftwaffe is in seriously bad shape, with many damaged aircraft. My transports are in terrible shape, and most units are under 50% capable. I also wonder if moving them forward has really hurt under the new rules. Is anyone else experiencing a big spike in Luftwaffe problems?

It's so bad, I turned Ground Support OFF for most of the turn, hoping my aircrews could focus on repairs.

This is really not helping my supply problems; in order to fly ANY transport missions, I had to reduce % to fly.

AGN: We managed to cross that river south of Pskov, but that's about it. There are alot of units there, more than the Soviets can generally pull together I think turn 3 without using alot of rail capacity.

So far, it appears B-G is making a real commitment to hold Leningrad. I may ditch it then as an objective, and instead find a good defense line close to Leningrad, and in the Valdai Hills. We'll see.

AGC: Der Fuhrer is not happy with this area. We are seriously behind, and part of it is thanks to me; I pushed my Panzers too far forward, and B-G cut them off. My bad.

I reestablished contact and knocked some units back, but accomplished very little this turn, other than moving Infantry closer.

I am doing poorly up here. I am sure reducing Pz Gp 2 to one corps doesn't help, but my generalship has been wanting.

Bad KIA: Alexander Loehr was KIA'ed; he is a good air commander, so that's bad enough, but the AI replaced him with Job Odebrecht, who has an air rating of 2. He must be Hitler's cousin or something, because he has a political rating of 9. That will cost 26 APs to replace, which with the new rules I really need for Fort construction prior to winter.

I remember this guy Odebrecht haunting me in another game. I hate him.

[image]local://upfiles/6931/26095D0A6A4040AE989078DA39EB220F.jpg[/image]



Encircled -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/12/2011 10:06:13 PM)

Just finished my first turn as Soviet, and bearing in mind the AAR's that all pretty much without fail show that counter attacking with SW Front is suicide in the first couple of turns.

Its going to be hard finding the very fine balance between forward defence and guaranteed destruction



Flaviusx -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/12/2011 10:10:59 PM)

It's suicidal if the pocket is made, yes. My problem is I think the pocket is too easily accomplished. That's why everybody does it.






Klydon -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/12/2011 10:12:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I'm getting thoroughly irritated by this whole Lvov pocket business and think it's time to make some changes here. It's just way too easy to pummel SW Front.


Are you talking specifically of the "dash to the border" manuver or something else? Dash to the border I agree with you if that is the case as it is one of the big issues with a IGOUGO system. There is simply no way the Germans could have done this manuver in the real campaign and it is causing issues.

Being able to form a smaller pocket (as in no dash to the border) I have no issues with.

I wonder if knocking 5-10 MP's off the at start panzer forces in PG1 would get the job done. I don't think any PG2 forces have the reach where they set up now.

Good response in general Q-Ball. Your main effort in the south is going to pay some good dividends, although I am wondering if you will stall out before he gets a chance to get that river line fortified. If you can get across soon, he is going to be in really serious trouble in the south.



Encircled -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/12/2011 10:15:04 PM)

 My post was more at the situation on Soviet T2, you move up the decent mech/tank units so you can hit exhausted German Panzer units, but if you do that, the decent units are then encircled far too easily.

If you can't risk your units, then you can't knock the German morale down, and with the changes to the rules, you are going to be in big trouble when the Panzers break through



Flaviusx -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/12/2011 10:18:07 PM)

It is directly related to the IGOUGO nature of the system, yes.

Nowadays I'm favoring lifting the surprise turn penalties on SW Front. It's just a test dummy with the existing rules. I don't think this is right. The German can race down to Romania secure in the fact that the Soviet cannot move or fight on turn 1 due to the suprise attack turn penalties. The movement penalty especially is crippling: you're not going to get anything done with 12 MP mobile units and 6 MP infantry. By turn 2 when this goes away it is far too late.

The German is in a position to massively leverage these penalties on turn 1 for going all in in the south, while at the same time having more than enough to accomplish historical pockets further north. It's a no brainer. And that's why it's being done in each and every single game.

If the German had to contend with an alerted SW Front, then things get more interesting. Right now we are treating is as the same kind of zombie that NW and Western front are, and this seems wrong to me.



Encircled -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/12/2011 10:20:30 PM)

We are in danger of clogging up this AAR here

Maybe it should be moved to the War Room?



glvaca -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/12/2011 11:33:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Turn 3

I wonder if the SW Front is better served pulling back to the Dnepr/Krivoi Rog, and fighting THERE. Allow the Germans to quickly gobble up space, but also reach the end of their logistical tether, and THEN fight.



100% with you on this one. When the Sovs fight forward in the South, as an Axis player, it's yummie time!



glvaca -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/12/2011 11:34:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I'm getting thoroughly irritated by this whole Lvov pocket business and think it's time to make some changes here. It's just way too easy to pummel SW Front.






Correction, if Soviet players resist the temptation to fight forward, it ain't that easy. Well, that's IMHO off course!



glvaca -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/12/2011 11:38:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

It is directly related to the IGOUGO nature of the system, yes.

Nowadays I'm favoring lifting the surprise turn penalties on SW Front. It's just a test dummy with the existing rules. I don't think this is right. The German can race down to Romania secure in the fact that the Soviet cannot move or fight on turn 1 due to the suprise attack turn penalties. The movement penalty especially is crippling: you're not going to get anything done with 12 MP mobile units and 6 MP infantry. By turn 2 when this goes away it is far too late.

The German is in a position to massively leverage these penalties on turn 1 for going all in in the south, while at the same time having more than enough to accomplish historical pockets further north. It's a no brainer. And that's why it's being done in each and every single game.

If the German had to contend with an alerted SW Front, then things get more interesting. Right now we are treating is as the same kind of zombie that NW and Western front are, and this seems wrong to me.


Maybe we should look at it in the light of that it is far too difficult to achieve other historical pockets further down the road against a good Russian player?
And again, as the Russian, just resist the tempation to throw in more, because if you do, you're going to lose more.



glvaca -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/12/2011 11:38:59 PM)

q-ball, I'd be very interested to see a commanders report filtered on the panzers. You've had quite a few helds, I'm wondering how their morale is at this point.

Thanks!



M60A3TTS -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/13/2011 12:11:51 AM)

Now you tell me! [:(]
(I'm getting hammered in our PBEM because of that)

The Lvov pocket thing really should be addressed at some point. Everyone talks relative to history how easy it is to get Leningrad but forgets about Kiev. It took Guderian's PanzerGruppe link up with Von Kleist in September before the Soviet armies there were surrounded and destroyed. In this game as the Axis if you haven't stormed into Kiev by early August with AGS alone, there's something wrong with you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I'm getting thoroughly irritated by this whole Lvov pocket business and think it's time to make some changes here. It's just way too easy to pummel SW Front.






Correction, if Soviet players resist the temptation to fight forward, it ain't that easy. Well, that's IMHO off course!




Q-Ball -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/13/2011 10:41:09 PM)

By the Numbers:

A few questions asked on numbers; here you go.

[image]local://upfiles/6931/913A7B1FBAEC47CF81B1C3267B83E072.jpg[/image]



timmyab -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/14/2011 11:33:19 AM)

A clear case of overcommitment in the south from BG.He only needed to commit a couple of mobile divisions to achieve 90% of what he actually did achieve.That is to cut off the panzer spearheads and re-establish supply to the Proskurov pocket for one turn at least,(the units in this pocket are dead).A nine or ten division pocket is acceptable every so often, twenty divisions not so much, especially when they're some of your strongest.
The thing about the forward defence is that it must be very solid with plenty of depth.As soon as you can no longer guarantee that solidity, then it's time to withdraw, even if it means leaving behind pocketed units.



Tarhunnas -> RE: Death Ride to Russia: Q-Ball (Axis) v Bletchley Geek (Sov). 1.05 beta (9/14/2011 11:56:04 AM)

quote:

Job Odebrecht


Odd Job? [;)] (If anyone remembers the guy in that old James Bond movie).



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