RE: Fall Turkis (Full Version)

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Peltonx -> RE: Fall Turkis (2/22/2012 9:00:15 AM)

quote:

I need that, because the Wehrmacht is a bit burnt out. In my other game, Baelfiin has over 4 mil men in Wehrmacht in late 1942, and here I have just over 3.5 mil. That's alot of dead guys. My tank losses are also high.


Baelfin stopped attacking to early as I did vs Kamil. Sure he has high#'s but its about morale. As I found out the hard way vs Kamil.

Tank losses are over rated, by late 43 you have 5000 tanks, but they will be almost usless vs stacks of full toe rifle corps.

Keep attacking while you can with mech units and hold the bulge as long as you can. Track the OOB, once you stop attacking it will grow quickly. Punch away with mech units until you can't find a weak spot.

Even if he buys 30-40 rifle corp in early 43 it will take a good while to fill them out because of lower manpower numbers so you should still be able to find weak spots in 43 to cut off.



Q-Ball -> Fall Turkis Re-Cap (2/24/2012 4:13:34 PM)

10/1/42

We bagged 5 more divisions near Boguchar, running this summer's POW total up over 800,000, and division count close to 100.

That will be it, though, for Fall Turkis, or "Case Turquoise", our Summer Offensive. What did we accomplish?

The Good:

The Red Army is at 5.7 mil, which I think is pretty low at this stage. This was my major objective this summer, to keep these guys down, and I think we did that. We destroyed alot of divisions; some of those are probably excess, but some will require APs to replace.

I suspect that smokindave has excess Manpower in the pool, but is probably short on Rifle units. I haven't seen any Artillery. He probably has alot of APs to spend, and may be a bit behind in terms of building the Red Army.

We also cleared several Manpower centers, including Rostov, Voronezh, Tambov, Lipetsk, Ryazan, and Tula. Hopefully that takes a bite out of Red Army recruitment.

Concerns:

My front is awfully long. While attacking this is a good thing, and stretches the Reds out, but once the Soviets get serious, I will need to consolidate my lines. This almost certainly means pulling out of the Tambov bulge.

I think the Red Army is sufficiently weakened that I won't see alot of activity this winter. He probably needs the extra months to build Corps and SUs and train everybody. I anticipate some attacks but nothing huge.

From what I can tell of smokindave, he understands how to build the Red Army, so I expect him to build Corps and Artillery and use them properly.

Plans:

Given where I think the Red Army is, we are going to be active this winter. I am not pulling out of the Tambov bulge, and I would like to plan a winter offensive at some point. Maybe more of an attack than an offensive.

The reason primarily is that I want smokindave to be in a defensive posture, even as he is attacking me. I want him to have to protect his flanks when he is stacking Corps up to attack. Only way to do that is to convince him I can, and will, attempt to pocket units in winter.

So, I will pick a spot and pocket a couple units, for the sole purpose really of sending a message: We can still bite.

That is my hope, anyway.

[image]local://upfiles/6931/BE359800EE374DA7ACBB516EB5B095E5.jpg[/image]



Q-Ball -> RE: Fall Turkis Re-Cap (2/25/2012 3:23:33 PM)

10/22/42

Quick post, not much happening with Mud season obviously.

I am starting to re-configure the Wehrmacht for mostly defensive operations. I still plan some sort of attack in Winter, and I will hold at least 2 Panzer Armies in reserve for this purpose. I am concentrating the best Panzer units in these formations, and deploying the lesser divisions as reserves (usually ones which don't have enough Panzers)

I am doing a major re-distribution of Support Units. I had alot of Pioneers attached to Panzers to help get forts down, but I think most attacking I will do now with Panzers will be against Soviet units in the open. I also need Pioneer help to dig. So, I am redeploying all the Pioneers to have at least one assigned per Corps.

I had several STUGs assigned to Motorized Divisions. With those now picking-up organic armored elements, I am also redeploying STUGs defensively, one per Corps roughly. I don't have enough for every Corps, so I am deploying 1 PanzerJaeger per Corps up north. I am deploying them up North, because I expect that sector of front to be quieter, and the Wehrmacht struggles to get enough Marders, while STUGs are relatively plentiful. I'll probably re-arrange again once those units start taking on the 1944 heavier Tank Destroyers, like the PzJg IV and Jagdpanthers.

So, each Infantry Corps will roughly look like this:

3 Artillery Units
1 Pioneer
1 Stug
1 Mixed Flak (88mm equipped Flak unit; for AT purposes)
1 Construction Bn

Panzer Corps, roughly, a bit more like this:
3-4 Nebelwerfer and/or Artillery
1 Pioneer
1 Stug
2 Mixed Flak and/or Light Flak

Of course, this isn't exactly uniform; the Germans have a few Infantry-type SUs (MG Bns, and that Bicycle Bn) that are mixed in.

Alot of the Construction Units I am keeping at the Army/OKH level. They are repairing the railnet, and later-on I will use them attached to Fort Zones to help dig directly.



governato -> SUs (2/28/2012 12:39:12 AM)

Do you keep the SUs attached to individual divisions or rather at the HQ Korps level? I can see the pros and cons of both, but
with the Whermacht on the defensive HQs and their units should not be to far from each other...so with good leaders maybe SUs should stay with the HQs?



Q-Ball -> RE: SUs (2/28/2012 2:42:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: governato

Do you keep the SUs attached to individual divisions or rather at the HQ Korps level? I can see the pros and cons of both, but
with the Whermacht on the defensive HQs and their units should not be to far from each other...so with good leaders maybe SUs should stay with the HQs?



On the offensive, I attached alot of SU's at the division level. This is because I am choosing when and where to commit units, and so doing that focused use where I needed them. I attached Pioneers to most mobile units, and I also gave every Motorized Division a STUG Bn (for some armored support). That type of thing.

But on the defensive, I don't want SU's tied to a unit; I want them to be instantly deployed anywhere the combat happens. So, that's why I am moving alot of the to the Corps level. German leadership is good enough that most of the time you'll get those units committed to combat.

I'll still have some direct attachments, like putting the Tigers where I really want them, etc. But most are moved to Corps level.

Not sure if my thinking is correct all around, but I think it is.



Q-Ball -> RE: SUs (3/2/2012 3:17:00 AM)

12/17/42: Operation Schneeman (Snowman)

I have wanted to shave off that Soviet bulge near Kaluga for a long time (see the map a few posts above). But with one flank anchored on the OKA, too difficult....until the OKA freezes.

I have been slowly moving troops to either end, including most of my Panzers, and a Mountain Corps to pave the way. Smokindave ran very few recon flights around there, so I don't think he was expecting an attack there.

We should bag 9 units in this one, but I don't plan to press it. The Russians will no doubt have 2 more reserve armies there next turn, and last thing I want to do is get in a slugging match, in the woods, in the snow, near Moscow. Ain't happening.

So, we will liquidate the pocket, straighten the line, and move the Panzers back again, to try a quick strike somewhere else before Winter is done.

Mostly, I want to keep the Soviets thinkging defensively, showing we can still bite off units if they are not careful.

From smokindave's standpoint, at least the units he lost were just low-level grunts; no Corps or Guards. In fact, I haven't seen ANY guards anywhere. I know he has them, so I bet he is hoarding them. I bet I start seeing some next turn around Moscow!!!!

This did cost me more losses; my OOB is still a little low.

[image]local://upfiles/6931/4760459F12A148C4BDA85FA2B41D0AD2.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: SUs (3/2/2012 5:16:23 PM)

I think you can slog it out and take Moscow, I have done it and others late 42 and 43.

Pull all your highest morale Infantry into 1 army. 9 divisions should do it. 3 best infantry commanders, load them up with poineers and artillary.
You will also need to pull together 9 mech divisions into one army best leaders.

You can easly conduct 10-12 battles and your OOB will remain static. Tank and gun losses will be low also. You could throw in 1 corp of Panzers, but only use them as reserves on defence.

You should be able to slog ahead 20 miles a week 30 to 40 miles wide and not take to high of loses.

I personally like attacking north of OKA after September 42. Once you take a hex your not going to lose it unless it can be attacked from 4 side.

Germans lose more retreating then attacking.



Q-Ball -> RE: SUs (3/3/2012 5:49:57 AM)

1/7/43

Moscow Attack:

I liquidated the 9 units, and the following turn, I isolated a couple more, but my attacks hit some walls. After running recon, dave has a pretty good-size carpet around Moscow. In order to really take it, I would need to surround it from two directions.

I thought hard based on your comments Pelton, but I decided to halt. I did destroy 10 units this litte attack and shorten the line, so that was helpful. But I think it would be too costly to try for Moscow, and would likely end in failure.

I also need to be aware that my line is very long, and stretched, so I can't afford to keep Panzers in one place for long.

I am dispersing them, though I am keeping a Panzer Army together for another hit this winter.

Tough decision, and I do agree that I hate conceding initiative. But I don't want to burn out my formations either.

So, we're going to dig, and attack any attempt to move from his side

Dave has quality reserves somewhere, so they can strike anytime



Peltonx -> RE: SUs (3/3/2012 10:18:25 AM)

It is a very tough choose to make.

Moscow can be taken by an all out frontal assault.
You have to attack from 2 to 3 hexes and it generally takes 1 to 3 turns per hex. If the units are set up right the fort level is reduced every attack and some times dropped from 3 to 0 during combat.

A frontal assault is easyer then cutting it off and requires less troops and has lower loses over all.

Each game is different for sure and I am sure what your doing in your game is right.

But taking Moscow can be as easy as taking Leningrad if done right.

Pelton



mmarquo -> RE: SUs (3/3/2012 2:28:38 PM)

I agree with Pelton; you can take Moscow by a frontal assault; you will have concentrate you best infantry leaders and pioneers for the task.

Marquo



Flaviusx -> RE: SUs (3/3/2012 2:31:30 PM)

I agree with Q-ball. If the Soviet knows his business, he can turn this into Kursk 2.0 and fry the panzerwaffe.

In the interests of full disclosure, STAVKA (i.e., yours truly) has sent out representatives to advise comrade Chuikov on new defensive tactics. Pelton may not be familiar with these.



Klydon -> RE: SUs (3/3/2012 3:14:05 PM)

Even if he gets Moscow, how long can he hold it without taking unacceptable losses?



mmarquo -> RE: SUs (3/3/2012 4:56:33 PM)

Do not need to hold Moscow; only force the evacuation of Manpower - this delays the inevitable growth of the Soviet gorgon. Also much of this game is psychological - no Soviet player loses Moscow without some remorse; I'd parry even Flaviusx would have some twinges (if he's ever lost it....).

Marquo



Flaviusx -> RE: SUs (3/3/2012 5:22:12 PM)

James came very close. He might have done it if we continued that game, depending on the weather. It was turning into a real slogging match, though.










juret -> RE: SUs (3/3/2012 5:53:38 PM)

to early be defensive already in oct 42 as axis.

Facts:
Axis mobile divisions replace old tanks with newer models 43. tank losses irrelvant now.
Soviet will be much stronger in 43. Attacking now only option as later is not ok.



Q-Ball -> RE: SUs (3/6/2012 1:18:33 AM)

2/4/43

It's a tough call, no doubt, on when to stop. Utlimately, I decided to, because I didn't think I could pocket alot more units, since Dave carpeted-up. I could have threatened Moscow, but I was concerned about Russian attacks elsewhere; I am really extended, and I couldn't see any Guards or Tanks, which means they were somewhere lurking.

As it happens, Dave was quiet for a few turns, until this one. I was expecting a little more aggression, but that's OK.

He is attacking mostly Axis Allies for now. I tend to use them on the front quite a bit at this stage; my thinking is that I would rather have them suffer attrition than the Germans. My German attrition, between that and STATIC mode, has been low.

I particularly don't care if the Italians get smacked around, as they are about to flee back to Italy. Things not going so well in the Med.....

[image]local://upfiles/6931/B4827025DF284E3DB9278CD0AA80B9E2.jpg[/image]



Q-Ball -> RE: SUs (3/14/2012 3:36:52 AM)

T-100! 5/15/43

Turn 100! Furthest I have ever gotten in a PBEM. Or ANY game for that matter!

Soviets continued a fairly low-level of attacks all winter; mud season now.

I am still holding the Tambov bulge, but I will be pulling back in a couple turns, to trade some space and shorten the lines. The largest Soviet Formations are on the south-end of this bulge, we can take a couple turns off and shorten the line at the same time.

Other than that, things are going fine; our OOB looks pretty good at this point

I have a Panzer Army in reserve, waiting to counterattack. The PanzerWaffe is about at it's height right now, with high morale, new tanks,and big OOBs. The GD Division has a CV of 34 without any SUs, and a few other units are in the mid-20s.

[image]local://upfiles/6931/9F06B50C16DB4931B8A85BD63FB26BB4.jpg[/image]



karonagames -> RE: SUs (3/14/2012 1:00:16 PM)

@Qball. Can I ask how many men you have manning those FZs? My view is that they are only worth the investment if they have the time to get entrenchment levels to Lvl4, and will therefore invest in FZs with const. battalions attached at my 1943 MLR, which usually runs on the Rostov-Leningrad diagonal and then get them constructing the 1944 MLR (the Dneiper line) once entrenchments reach lvl 4 and the hex can be left empty. I am very nervous about tying up men that could be better used in the front line. You look like you have 200+ FZs, I try to have no more than 120 active at any one time, which still leaves enough CBs for rail repair and front line entrenchment support.



JAMiAM -> RE: SUs (3/14/2012 3:36:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

@Qball. Can I ask how many men you have manning those FZs? My view is that they are only worth the investment if they have the time to get entrenchment levels to Lvl4, and will therefore invest in FZs with const. battalions attached at my 1943 MLR, which usually runs on the Rostov-Leningrad diagonal and then get them constructing the 1944 MLR (the Dneiper line) once entrenchments reach lvl 4 and the hex can be left empty. I am very nervous about tying up men that could be better used in the front line. You look like you have 200+ FZs, I try to have no more than 120 active at any one time, which still leaves enough CBs for rail repair and front line entrenchment support.


If set to 50% TOE upon creation, and taken off refit the turn after, they usually top off at < 700 men. At 200 FZs, this is fewer than 140k men, and the German OOB is swollen at this stage. Many of the labor sqaud elements will be formed from Hiwis, anyhow. Given this, he can easily afford the men to lay down multiple lines of resistance. It's not like he's laying down a carpet. They do seem to be well placed along river lines, etc.

That said, your suggestion to disband them after they reach level 4 is a good idea, since the level 4 forts don't suffer any decay.



Q-Ball -> RE: SUs (3/14/2012 3:59:54 PM)

There are 230,000 Germans in 244 Fort Zones. Most are set to 50% TOE, though I have some at 100%, like the ones along the Sea of Azov and Black Sea (they are there to cover ports and flanks from Amphib Landings; I find a full-strength Fort Zone is enough to repel a Soviet landing, and saves having to use real units)

Many times I place them not to dig, but to tend already existing lvl-3 forts. I don't think Forts are all that amazing either, but they are better than nothing, which is what the alternative is. Almost all the forts you see on the map have a lvl-3 fort in the hex.

Otherwise, when I do use them as diggers, I tend to give them help, either with Construction Units, or by placing strategic reserves there. The Reserves might as well dig while they are resting. Same goes for any unit that is back of the line to rebuild; they will receive shovels

Is it worth the cost? In terms of APs and Armaments, I have plenty of both at this stage, so that is not a consideration. It's just the Manpower. I am in pretty good shape there right now, and I have taken a few more steps to get the most rifles in line. For example, I have disbanded all but 1 FBD, the Luftflotte 6 HQ, and several Army Airbase units. I disbanded the Security HQs ages ago. All of this probably frees another 200,000 Infantry replacements. I think alot of these units are superfluous at this stage, and should be disbanded for replacements, particularly when you have the armaments for them. At the moment, I have 46,000 Rifle Squads between both types, so we are trying to shovel all manpower into Infantry units (Panzers are all topped-off)

Fort Zones have more construction resources available in 1943 as well, because RR building is pretty much done at this stage, except for repairs of partisan breaks, and this still leaves a big surplus.

At any rate, I always try to pick-up fort zones once the Soviets are near; there is no point to getting them killed-off. That's the real manpower drain. By disbanding them, I can recycle all the manpower elsewhere, so it's no big deal.



karonagames -> RE: SUs (3/14/2012 4:21:42 PM)

As with most things in WITE there is no right or wrong way to do things, it's just I've seen other AARs where the axis player thinks his 1943 manpower levels are comfortable, and then 20 turns later they have all gone.

My next question is are you using static mode to manage attrition?



Q-Ball -> RE: SUs (3/15/2012 4:04:40 AM)

I used static mode quite a bit over winter. But I'm starting to take off units where the Soviets are atttacking. I still have units in Static mode in many sectors, particularly up north.



Q-Ball -> RE: SUs (4/18/2012 3:08:24 AM)

8/26/43: T-115

I haven't posted in awhile. Like a month. So, here is an update on this, since I don't want the AAR to be officially dead, and we have to keep it up for posterity.

The Soviets have been banging away at my fortified lines all summer, and some cracks are appearing. I have backup lines prepared, but I am trying to hold them off as long as possible, to keep my overall objective of keeping the Soviets off the Dnepr until the Spring '44 thaw. If I can do that, I think I'm in great shape.

Here is a summary of the action:

AGN: This has been suprisingly active. I anticipated more Soviet attacks in the south, but Dave has chipped away at the Valdai Hills until I have a problem now. I may have to pull back. And I've had to commit some Finns to action, after having been careful of keeping them out of harms way for about a year.

I still think I can contain this; I may need to pull back to the Volkhov, and we are fortifying Leningrad.

Still AGN is an area of concern.

AGC: Another problem area. I thought we would have more success keeping them contained in the light woods near Moscow, but we have been slowly pushed back on Vyazma. This is a problem, because once we hit open terrain back of that, there isn't much to stop the Russkies short of the Dnepr. If it's not frozen, that is.

I am sending reinforcements to this sector.

AGS Here, I expected the heaviest attacks. I got that, but also some quiet areas.

The Russians are pushing hard around Voronezh. It's probably time soon to abandon it. But further south, no action at all on the Donets bend; nothing. This is a good position where a major river is protecting me, but 17th Army has sat all summer. Unfortunately, it's pretty far out there, so I am about to pull out, a little sooner than I expected.

Overall Assessment: Smokindave took over this game from Bletchley Geek, and inherited a decent situation; I put some knocks on the Russians, but no knockout blows. He is pounding my lines, causing losses but no breakthroughs.

The airwar is heavily in favor of the Russians. The Luftwaffe is about useless in this one, from 1941 on. Russians can swamp the skies with fighters, and shoot down all German bombers. There is a balance problem there.

Aside from that, though, I feel the Germans have the advantage. Sure, they will get pushed, but there are a ton of hexes to Berlin, and I just don't see a runaway at this point. Maybe I need to get pounded more, but I foresee holding the Polish border. We'll see if I eat my words.

[image]local://upfiles/6931/D9C2639F28284195816D4ADC51EFA6A8.jpg[/image]



Canoerebel -> RE: SUs (4/24/2012 3:09:28 PM)

If you haven't posted in here in a month it's high time that you migrated back to AE where you belong.  :)



JocMeister -> RE: SUs (4/27/2012 7:31:06 AM)

I think he already has! [:D]

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3090612



M60A3TTS -> RE: SUs (6/16/2012 7:11:58 PM)

So has this one officially died?



Farfarer61 -> RE: SUs (6/16/2012 10:49:04 PM)

I have no idea where the APs come to build those FZs. After always optimizing German C +C I have nothing left. Hopefully I havent answered my own question :)



Q-Ball -> RE: SUs (6/25/2012 4:30:40 AM)

It's dead. I moved on to WITP-AE, again. Thanks for asking, and jocmeister was right on that.

Hope this was helpful otherwise, and I still really like this engine...well worth the money

Just WITP-AE is my first love; guess I like more complex games than WITE....and that's the only one!



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