RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (Full Version)

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Klydon -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/10/2011 9:12:16 PM)

If you plan on making a push in the south to at least activate the extra AG HQ, then I would consider leaving AGS overloaded while "fixing" AGC and AGN. Why? The rules have all of AGS going to the OKH when AGB activates and you can then reassign on a per army basis to which army group you want. In the past, I had moved Rumanian 3rd and 4th Army to the Rumanian command as well, but this would save a ton of points and give them one final chance at a good leadership roll. The other issue is removing them out of the German AG's mean they likely won't enjoy Luftwaffe support either.

Other observations include using your Stug units (and to a lessor extent, pioneer units) to pump up your motorized formations, especially units that you will have for the long haul. The way tank attrition has become in this game, the panzer formations go to crap pretty quickly with a lot of broken tanks. I like the rest of what you are doing up there, including some of the deception practices.

I would leave the Crimea alone. He isn't going anywhere and all you do is waste extra troops making the push. On top of that, I think it is cheaper in terms of troops needed to garrision/defend where you are verses than actually taking the Crimea and then having to deal with Russian amphib actions. Even if you use a lot of Rumanians, the Crimea just has a ton of frontage to defend. It only makes sense to take the Crimea if you plan to make a drive south towards the oil, and you are not looking to do that.




Peltonx -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/10/2011 9:16:23 PM)

I generally put Model in charge of the 18th and then the next best 4 infantry commanders in charge of the 4 corps.

1 poineer per division, stugs and the flam panzers. best artillary in HQ's.

Also you need to boat loads of art in your best pz divisions and atleast 1 pineer per corps.

I am not convinced that small pockets will do the trick.

If your able to punch a 3 to 4 hex wide hole through his fort belt which will be 4 to 6 hexes deep hes puddy in your hands.
You have 4 turns of snow. to get 6 hexes deep. Once you get through his hole fort belt is next to usless in the area of breakthrough.

The weather sucks so he never be able to recover. bag some more hexes the first clear turn and mybee a pocket.

Both tactics work. The small pockets will not break the reds back, but if you can punch through the belt during snow you should be able to deliever the death blow during summer.

I have used the big punch and the small both work, but the big blow quickly ends game.

Pelton



IdahoNYer -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/12/2011 2:43:12 AM)

Don't forget the Hungarians Q-Ball - they can hold the line a whole lot better than Rumanians. Attaching German Divisions as "corsets" to the both of those armies allow them to hold off Soviet counterattacks in the Summer '42 - no bets after Rifle Corps start arriving.

The one disadvantage to attacking in the south is "what is going to keep the Soviets from pulling East faster than you can attack?" I'd fight on the Don, then once breached, run like hell. And those rivers should be challenging as a less than aggressive Soviet blizzard attack probably means he's digging. 1.05 should help prevent the maginot line from being constructed, but its not going to be a pushover either. He's had since Nov to dig....



ComradeP -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/12/2011 12:55:46 PM)

Q-Ball, a few notes:

First, a minor one: If you had 120 Guards Rifle divisions by early 1942, that was a bug.

-You can't compare Bletchley Geek's offensive to yours as in your game with Tarhunnas, both you and him were much better at attacking than defending. Tarhunnas preparations for the winter were minimal, and he paid for it. You actually prepared for it, and Bletchley Geek probably wants to avoid "attacking himself to death." You said you would've pushed more, but you have to keep in mind what doing so gets the Soviets. In most cases, real gains will be mostly non-existent. You can recapture what he captured in a month in just one turn.

-Keep in mind that you could, theoretically, assign an infantry division directly to each army HQ as the command cap increases by 3 for armies in mid 1942.

-Setting most/all units in an area to static is now a VERY, VERY bad idea as static units DON'T automatically become unstatic when forced to withdraw. When the Soviets get rolling in an area where you have a lot of static units, you'll be scrambling to make them mobile again and you quite probably won't have the AP's to do so at that point. Vehicle production will increase in 1942 and having mobile units with somewhat lower MP's is a hundred times better than having static infantry formations that can get whacked.

-Don't attack for the sake of attacking. With the first Rifle corps probably appearing soon, and your losses increasing due to high ROF elements and a bit higher overall Soviet experience levels, your casualty/loss ratios will more or less by default be more unfavourable than in 1941. Attacking units in forts can quickly become dangerous. Experiment with attacks, see what works and what doesn't, but keep in mind that you don't need to attack all across the front.

-In non-clear weather turns (it also works in clear, but less well because there are no additional MP penalties due to the weather), keep in mind that you can pull the same trick on the Soviets that they have pulled on you during the blizzard, as you can ZOC lock enemy units and prevent their escape even with infantry units. In my next game as the Axis, I'll experiment with doing so in 1941, as the results could be quite good.

-Don't worry too much about Soviet OOB strength, worry about CV's that you can see. I have a 7 million man army against the AI in the first blizzard as the Soviets, but it would by no means be a steamroller in the summer. There are just a lot of guys at the front. The huge size of the Soviet army will mostly be a problem when morale/experience goes up.

-Pick a target that matters. Just like you shouldn't attack for the sake of attacking, don't advance for the sake of advancing. Advancing towards the Caucasus, with a minimal chance that you'll capture it, just gives you a large exposed flank. Capturing cities or towns is fine, but always keep in mind what capturing a certain area will do for your war effort. Capturing the Rostov area gives you another AG and it gives you a fairly solid flank on a major river. That's a good idea. Moving further to the east doesn't really get you much.

-Stop wasting divisions by moving them into traps or not paying attention. You can't afford it, and it's just poor play. There is no need to, ever, lose a division as the Axis before the Soviets start attacking in 1943 or so.



Q-Ball -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/12/2011 3:22:08 PM)

Some good comments there ComradeP, I appreciate it.

RE: HQ limits, good tip. That means 3 fully-loaded Corps, plus another division. It's still tough, because I will actually have 44 total Corps HQs (33 Inf, and 11 Panzer), and 12 Armies (4 Panzer, 8 Infantry). So, that means some HQs are going to serve under foreign command, or some Army HQs are going to be overloaded. Or both.

I am sending at least 1, maybe 2 Corps HQ to serve under Finnish leadership, which should lift some burden. A few divisions will be mixed-in with Romanian or Hungarian formations. Otherwise, I plan on having Armies in AGC overloaded a bit.

RE: STATIC: I hear you, but I think the benefits outweight the risks, provided I keep APs on hand. I think if the Germans static much of the front, you better keep 100 APs in the pool at all times, in order to free them. Once I make all these org changes, I expect to begin accumulating surplus, as I won't have to think about building fort zones until Summer (when I will start in AGC). I am already in a pretty good place with leaders.

Fall Turkis (Case Turquoise):

I think that advice on Rostov is sound, and seals it for me. The initial target will be Rostov.

1st Panzer Army is gathered around the Donbas, and is in pretty sound shape. I will add a fresh infantry Corps, and use the Snow turns to push over the Mius. I also plan a SNOW attack around OREL, mostly to get the Russians off the rail line I have there, and force them back on Tula.

But in the Summer, I plan the following stages:

-Initial Attack toward Rostov, with the objective of taking Rostov and securing the Don/Donets area as good defensive terrain for later.

-Attack north of Voroshiovgrad, toward the great space south of Boguchar. The objective here is flanking the Donets if I want to continue east, and threaten Stalingrad. I don't really want to take, and I certainly don't want to attempt to hold, Stalingrad. But I would like to force him to evacuate the industry; that would be a nice bonus.

-If this Southern Offensive is successful, he will be rushing reinforcements to secure the Don. If that is the case, I will shift the attack north toward Voronezh, and attempt to take that. There is a good chance we won't get to Phase 2, but you never know.

FORCES:

To accomplish this, I need to beef-up 11th, 17th, and 6th Armies.

We are going to remove from these armies many divisions that are depleted and/or have poor morale, and send them to the CENTER and NORTH, swapping them with better formations, and also creating a small reserve up there in case the Russians cause some trouble. Their places will be taken by fresh formations from Germany, which will have morale in the 70-75 range, and full strength. We also have our "Sturm Corps" of very high morale Infantry saved all winter, and a "Baby Sturm Corps" of 4 more 80-ish morale infantry divisions.

For the MOBILE forces, I am leaving a single Panzer Corps in AGC, and nothing in AGN. As Panzer Divisions lose AFVs in our summer offensive, I will probably send them north to refit and keep an eye on things. The total heading into Summer is approx. 21 Panzer and 13 Mot Divs (give or take, depending on date); I will leave 2 Panzer and 2 Mot Divs up north, plus all the SS Motorized Brigades, and the rest will be on the attack. That's roughly 28 Mobile Divisions in 7 Corps, organized in 3 Panzer Armies.



ComradeP -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/12/2011 4:54:11 PM)

Another thing to keep in mind is that attaching corps/army HQ's to OKH isn't necessarily a bad thing. I tend to park OKH in Smolensk and assign some corps to it that guards the no mans land between AGN and AGC north of Moscow. If I capture Moscow, odds are good that I use the OKH-assigned corps and their attached units to guards the area, so AGC can focus on the central part of the map. It's impossible to overload OKH.

If AG A and AG B arrive, you could also assign corps/army HQ's directly to them, of course.

If you rotate forces and keep about an army in reserve (attached to OKH), your C&C problems will also be reduced a bit, at least until your first army HQ withdraws.



Q-Ball -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/12/2011 8:49:40 PM)

T36: 2/19/42

All Quiet on the Eastern Front. There were no Soviet attacks this turn; not even recon flights. Nothing.

So, the Winter Offensive is probably over. I will post a more complete analysis after I go through the last turn of attrition. Our losses this turn were 40,000, so even though it's February, attrition is still taking a bite.

We are moving units forward in earnest; every 3+ size town in AGS sector anywhere close to the front has a unit seeking shelter. Next turn, I can bring everyone out in the open, since it will be 2/26, and all the Morale losses will be done.

More complete numbers will be posted, but Soviet OOB stands at 5.6 mil, and German at 3.2 mil. Germany has 2,000 Tanks; we could use more for Summer, but not much I can do about that.

Production:

We have 90,000 Armaments in the pool, so it's time to turn Artillery TOEs back up. They have been 50% since the start of the war, and many units are pretty depleted. I left them low for winter; no sense getting Artillery damaged, but now it's time to re-build it back up. My Armament pool should pretty much empty next turn with that happening.

We have 150,000 Germans in the Transit Pool, so they are on their way to the front.

TOE Adjustments:

16th and 18th Army TOEs are set to 60%, except for the Artillery in those armies. 9th Army, 3rd "Panzer" are set to 80%. 4th Army will probably be set to 80%, but we are attacking first out of Orel.

About 10 German Divisions are headed to the Finnish sectors, to relieve the poor tired Finns.

The Finnish troops I am withdrawing are going to get a very very early start on fortifications for "Fortress Finland". I am obviously thinking ahead! But by the time 1944 rolls around, I plan to have very very thick forts around Finland, and relatively rested Finnish Army.

[image]local://upfiles/6931/2318B83DA30D4943B2E0B9D7C3B70732.jpg[/image]



ComradeP -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/13/2011 2:36:08 AM)

Q-Ball, keep the new detection rules in mind, which basically mean you can't identify Guards (and he can't identify the SS) unless they're next to the frontline in most cases.

I'm very happy that the practice of "recon shells" that is sometimes used in WitP is not a standard strategy for WitE, as "recon bombing" presumably shows you what the defending units are and how many men are in the hex. I never do any ground attacks with my air units myself, so I don't know if it would actually work.



Klydon -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/13/2011 4:17:21 AM)

Given his lack of offensive tempo, I have to believe his guards count is not real high. I just don't see how it can be to be honest and certainly not in any numbers where it could have a big impact in the early going.

I am very curious to see how this will play out because while you gave up some ground, he really didn't push the attack real hard either.



CarnageINC -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/13/2011 4:31:14 AM)

One thought on your command structure.  How are your leading assault troops for leadership?  You have the creme de la creme in place?  



Ketza -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/13/2011 6:19:46 AM)

The only real negative to placing units in static is that once you "wake them up" they cannot attack. They can still retreat out of a potential disaster if need be. As long as you have a reserve of APs you should have no issues waking up a line if the Soviet player launches an all out offensive in an area. You should be doing a fair amount of recon so that much of a strategic surprise should not happen anyway.

Saving 20k troops in attrition every turn is no joke. That is saving a million men in a year as well as obtaining higher fort levels.

Until one of my games proves it wrong I think this is a must for the Axis once they go over to the strategic defensive.



ComradeP -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/13/2011 1:28:49 PM)

The reduced attrition is indeed nice, although I don't know if you'd save 20k each turn with the reduced overall attrition.

However, the benefits of that advantage would all be for nothing if the Soviets encircle some divisions because you couldn't move them more than 1 hex and they couldn't attack.



Q-Ball -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/13/2011 1:42:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Q-Ball, keep the new detection rules in mind, which basically mean you can't identify Guards (and he can't identify the SS) unless they're next to the frontline in most cases.

I'm very happy that the practice of "recon shells" that is sometimes used in WitP is not a standard strategy for WitE, as "recon bombing" presumably shows you what the defending units are and how many men are in the hex. I never do any ground attacks with my air units myself, so I don't know if it would actually work.


RE: Guards, I know he has at least 5 Guards Rifles, but they are all off the front-line now, and I can't see them. That tells me he is probably forming a strategic reserve of his best formations. I'm sure I'll see those guys once the Summer offensive starts!

The "Recon Shells" in WITP was the only way to get any kind of OOB for the ground units in the hex. That didn't bother me as much as "Recon Bombs", which always identify the unit you are bombing.

You never GROUND BOMB? Isn't it a good way to increase fatigue ahead of an attack? I had always assumed it helped?[&:]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Given his lack of offensive tempo, I have to believe his guards count is not real high. I just don't see how it can be to be honest and certainly not in any numbers where it could have a big impact in the early going.

I am very curious to see how this will play out because while you gave up some ground, he really didn't push the attack real hard either.


I agree on the Guards. Conveniently, the Red Army numbers Guards units consecutively, so the highest number I identified was "5th Guards Rifle Division". There may be a few more out there that are now making their die rolls, but I doubt it's a massive number.

I did trade ground to avoid attacks, and I also think B-G didn't press very hard. Maybe he is conserving Red Army strength which may be wise, not sure. Certainly halting the last couple weeks of February has it's merits, whatever you capture you can't figure to hold anyway unless the German attacks elsewhere.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

One thought on your command structure. How are your leading assault troops for leadership? You have the creme de la creme in place?


For the Panzer Corps/Armies, YES. The Germans don't have any truly terrible Panzer commanders, but I have sacked mediocre guys like Kuntzen and Stumme and getting Hube and a couple other good ones in play. Same for the Infantry.

I haven't settled on a specific HQ for the assault, so I may change it later. I have sacked the original commanders of 11th and 17th Armies, who kind of suck, and replaced them with Lindemann and Mackensen (not the absolute tops, but cheap replacements)

IMO, getting the top leaders in Panzer Corps is important.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

The only real negative to placing units in static is that once you "wake them up" they cannot attack. They can still retreat out of a potential disaster if need be. As long as you have a reserve of APs you should have no issues waking up a line if the Soviet player launches an all out offensive in an area. You should be doing a fair amount of recon so that much of a strategic surprise should not happen anyway.

Saving 20k troops in attrition every turn is no joke. That is saving a million men in a year as well as obtaining higher fort levels.

Until one of my games proves it wrong I think this is a must for the Axis once they go over to the strategic defensive.



I agree, saving losses over the long haul is job #1 for the Wehrmacht. You forego counterattacks that one turn with Infantry, but chances are a) they aren't your freshest units anyway, and b) true Panzer support is a turn away regardless.

A Soviet counterstrategy is to force you to constantly "wake up" sections of the front, forcing you to spend APs, and increasing attrition losses



Peltonx -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/13/2011 1:45:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

The reduced attrition is indeed nice, although I don't know if you'd save 20k each turn with the reduced overall attrition.

However, the benefits of that advantage would all be for nothing if the Soviets encircle some divisions because you couldn't move them more than 1 hex and they couldn't attack.



Just putting just south (10-15 hexs) of Smolensk north in static will save about 10k per turn. 500,000 a yr.BUT I would keep atleast 200 ap in reserve, this will activate about 30 divisions which should be more then enough to "save" the day. If you have 1 inf and 1 panzer corp in reserve that would ne more then enough to stay safe and save allot of manpower and armaments that can be used during offensive operations during summer.

Also attacking during snow and clear turns during spring will increase moral of all units taking part in attacks and keep his fort belt from becoming 6 ot 8 hexes deep by June.

Pelton



ComradeP -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/13/2011 2:03:16 PM)

Interesting, didn't know the benefits could be that serious now. I haven't played a campaign that got to 1942 as the Axis since the reduced attrition for static units was added.

quote:

You never GROUND BOMB? Isn't it a good way to increase fatigue ahead of an attack? I had always assumed it helped?


As the Axis, I feel most bombing missions cause unnecessary losses to my tactical bombers often for a not too impressive result, and I need my level bombers for supply missions. With the reduction in the amount of aircraft that will generally fly, there seems to be even less reason to do so than before. The small increase in fatigue isn't really going to help much, as you won't hit the elements that can really hurt you (mortars, SMG squads) most of the time. I guess the attacks would consume some of the defender's ammo, but I try not to exploit the flaws of the supply/ammunition usage system.

As the Soviets, I could probably use my large and obsolete level bombing formations for it, but as I disband the SAD bases, I don't have nearly enough bases to put them all on the map and keep the bases within reasonable limits of support requirements. I prefer to use my Il-2's just for ground support. With the latest changes, not that many tend to fly most of the time, but I guess by 1943 or so, when you have more groups, it could be useful.



KenchiSulla -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/13/2011 4:41:02 PM)

ComradeP, I bomb for the disruption they cause... it helps get fatigue up. It might just make you succeed the attack! I use it if the attack ABSOLUTELY has to succeed (getting a pocket open)

It might not help the axis a lot though.....

End of Hijack..



Ketza -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/13/2011 4:59:07 PM)

My attrition losses dropped from 35k or so down to 11k in a straight mud turn with no battles. This was consistent for several turns.

Your own mileage may vary.



Q-Ball -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/14/2011 12:51:42 AM)

T37: Last Turn of Blizzard, 2/26/42

Although B-G could attack this turn and run the total up slightly, he hasn't moved in a couple turns, so I don't expect any.

Last turn, I posted a MAP of the theater, and now I am posting NUMBERS.

Assessment:

At the risk of breaking my arm patting myself on the back, I think I had a good Blizzard considering. I halted early in the Summer to construct defenses, had backup defense lines planned and built, and deliberately traded space for time in a methodical way. Basically, I had a plan and executed it, IMO, save for that brain fart in the Crimea. I didn't extend myself, or expose units unnecessarily to attacks or attrition.

I did get some help though; first, that FORT BUG helped me allowing me to use non-combat units to save forts. It at least saved me APs, as I would have built more Fort Zones than I did (I did build around 100 or so).

I was impacted at the end of Summer by the AIR COMMAND bug, which basically wiped out Luftwaffe bombers, so maybe it's a break even on BUGS.

Finally, it could also be that 1.05 has less impactful SOVIET offensive. This is very possible. I will find out when I get there in my game as Soviets, but the days of 100 attacks a turn are probably over regardless.

I think B-G kept reserves and prepped well for Winter. He mustered his forces, and used Cav Corps. I think he played conservatively, but it's always hard to see from the other side. Maybe he felt he couldn't wear his guys out.

Snow Plans:

I didn't want units to stay outside for another turn and lose Morale, so this turn we got everyone moving toward a few attack points.

We are gathering formations to attack around OREL, DONBAS and KHARKOV. These are limited attacks to pocket troops and get across major rivers before clear; also, get him out of his recently dug forts, and in open terrain.

It will take awhile to get it fully going; we didn't have the rail capacity to move everyone at once, but we should have a total of 15 Fresh Infantry, and a like number of Fresh Mobile units attacking.

A major offensive is tough to put together at the end of Blizzard, unless you want units spending time outside losing morale, which I don't.

Numbers:

I am posting extensive numbers for posterity.

There has been alot of chatter around MORALE for Infantry Formations, so I posted a full report of Morale and TOE%. That was pain in the butt to put together, so hopefully it is somewhat helpful.

The averages look pretty good, though if I filtered out the divisions that sheltered for Winter, and the recent arrivals, the average for Morale is probably low-60s, with TOE in the 60s.

[image]local://upfiles/6931/B2C0ADAADE78402994799CB209CBAE6C.jpg[/image]



Peltonx -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/14/2011 1:01:46 AM)

Wow you look to be in very good shape.

His winter O was really allot weaker then I expected. All Blizzard offensive look good the first month, but his really fell short during mid january.

I think you raiding Moscow really lowered his incoming manpower+ you hit historical Production losses (54). You only killed 3 mil before blizzard which is average now adays.

Eather he is not very good at blizzard O or the loses in manpower and armaments really hurt his winter O.

Nice Job.

Your plan seems very sound for snow and spring, before big O during summer.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/14/2011 12:35:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
Finally, it could also be that 1.05 has less impactful SOVIET offensive. This is very possible. I will find out when I get there in my game as Soviets, but the days of 100 attacks a turn are probably over regardless.


On my first blizzard turn (25) I just have managed 65 attacks, of which 43 retreats [8D] On the turn 26, 51 attacks of which 36 retreats (I am writing down all these numbers on an excel that I will screenshot when I will update the AAR, at the end of Blizzard). Less attacks on turn 26 simply because Marquo is er... running away [:D]

*sarcasm on* this is absolutely intolerable, these hill billy tactics should not be allowed blah blah blah *sarcasm off*

Now I have to make my turn 27. Marquo has ran away again (chicken!), leaving two buffer hexes between my hordes and the victims... I understand this strategy. But at this rate I will be advancing minimum 20 hexes come turn 37 [;)] Oh, I just got the 1st Guards Army this turn.

But of course I am utterly agressive, just like you: you had managed +100 attacks vs Tarhunnas. So I suspect you still CAN attack a lot under 1.05, don't worry. Unless your opponent gives up land. A lot of land.



ComradeP -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/14/2011 2:48:27 PM)

Attacking yourself to death as the Soviets now seems to be a very real threat. My Rifle elements are taking pretty high losses in attacks against the AI's German units, although the losses can be replaced in 1941. With the ~40.000 drop in replacements in 1942, keeping an offensive going becomes more difficult. As the AI's morale is at 110, morale/experience is better than it would normally be for the Axis, but Axis losses when retreating in 1941 have in many cases notably decreased in recent patches, especially for the infantry.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/14/2011 3:12:42 PM)

disregard [:)]



Q-Ball -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/14/2011 10:45:48 PM)

Another factor may be just personal preference of Bletchley Geek. He didn't have tons of attacks, but had a very high success rate; he was "making sure" on every attack. That is a more conservative approach, but also one which doesn't get as many guys killed. We each lost about 600K in Blizzard.

Against Tarhunnas, I attacked anything close to 1-1, and lost about 30% of my battles: A much lower success rate. All those attacks meant the German losses were higher, but so were mine; we each lost about 1 mil in that game. (a 1.04 game). Both armies were fried. I had about 400K lower as Reds after Blizzard than B-G does now (granted, Wehrmacht was smaller)

So, it may be that B-G experienced what ComradeP said, which is that Rifle units burned out quickly and became unready, which halted him. This is very possible, because it seems like he couldn't sustain hardly any drive. Maybe the units just "burnt".

Its' hard to say until I get there in Blizzard on the other side, which should be illuminating (which is why I play both sides).



Q-Ball -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/16/2011 4:29:14 AM)

T38: 3/5/42: First turn of SNOW after Blizzard:

BLAM!

Snow sure turns things around. In fact, it was a little easy to push the Soviets around first turn. I hope the game balance is OK.

B-G had troops in depth in these areas, but we managed to acheive a good breakthrough near Voroshilovgrad. I didn't have all the units available I wanted, because I am still moving up good units; the limitation is Rail Cap. It will be 3 more turns before all my good units are at the front.

Around OREL, it's basically just a push to get him out of forts, and off my rail line.

Further SOUTH, we are pushing NE from Voroshilovgrad. This was primarily to bag a few units, and also decieve BG a bit. I could go straight for Rostov, but saving that for Spring; I want to unhinge the line first.

We also shot down alot of VVS planes this turn. Like, over 400.



[image]local://upfiles/6931/C0B49512505549B4A623D30EDBFA4099.jpg[/image]



Baelfiin -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/16/2011 4:53:05 AM)

I think you will find that you will be able to generate a lot of movement in the new version in the snow. If you spend some time chewing on the russian army, by august you could be on your way to Stalingrad !!



Peltonx -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/16/2011 9:45:59 AM)

Nice job. Part of why it was so easy:

Your saving troops and his lack of a full offensive during Blizzard. He should have kept pushing and lowered your+ his troop levels, big mistake on his part.

He will still have close to 7 million men by June.

Pelton



ComradeP -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/16/2011 11:20:49 AM)

Even now that the odds modifier is gone, you still have to worry about counterattacks.

Him stacking his units 3 high next to your units is a major mistake.



Klydon -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/16/2011 1:20:44 PM)

Have to make hay before he can get tank corps formed and start breaking pockets easier, although with cav corps, he has units that make it easier for him to break pockets.

Those fresh units do indeed look nasty, but unfortunately there are likely not as many as you would like to see and they will deflate down after mud.

Have to start banging away at his units and make him spend as much AP on new formations as possible. He should be relatively low in that depending on how many cav corps he formed. He can have all the manpower/armaments he wants, but if he doesn't have enough counters for it all..



Q-Ball -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/16/2011 1:27:42 PM)

The above pocket has a couple holes, and I don't expect it to completely hold. I do expect, though, that those units are doomed anyway, it just may take an extra turn.

I didn't have the units to seal it completely. The units at the top, in particular, should re-establish contact next turn. For a turn, anyway.

3-deep stacks is a problem for the Russians. The problem is that units will rout simply because they don't have a retreat path. I think that's the reason for alot of those routed units.



mmarquo -> RE: OKH Planning Conference: Fall Turkis (11/16/2011 2:04:26 PM)

"Now I have to make my turn 27. Marquo has ran away again (chicken!), leaving two buffer hexes between my hordes and the victims... I understand this strategy. But at this rate I will be advancing minimum 20 hexes come turn 37 Oh, I just got the 1st Guards Army this turn."

Yeah, but TD is not telling the whole story, a clear case of propaganda reporting.

1. Why in the world would the Axis stand fast a be subject to deliberate attacks which are all going to succeed?
2. A large part of his successful attacks are hasy so not as bad as it would seem.
3. He forgot to fill you in on all of the failed attacks aka "Held."
4. The blizzard effects start to dissipate In January so I will not be retreating 20 hexes, and even if I did so what? It is only 20 hexes and Russia is huge :-)

Marquo



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