waw update (Full Version)

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bwheatley -> waw update (9/30/2011 5:49:49 AM)

After getting tom webers blessing i'm going to start modding waw atg version. There are a few things that are not implemented in the ATG version since it was such an early atg scenario.

I'm going to go back in and add in the air stacking rules as well, random intercept etc.




LJBurstyn -> RE: waw update (9/30/2011 7:39:00 AM)

I've done a lot of work on this game already...I've been working on German Submarine warfare against Western Allies AI since the AI moves production from Canada and USA to other locations...such as UK. This takes away in my opinion the German sub warfare against GB--which almost starved Britain during the early days of the war (until 1943). After I finished that I was going to work on the Air campaign using Western Allies AI to more accurately reflect the air campaign while playing the AI as I think the scenario does not do a good job at this.
I also moved some of the invasions because it did not accurately show the tactical, strategic and the political situation at the time. I've been working on alternate invasions to reflect the possible effect if events had not gone the way they did--what if German/Italian forces had won the North Africa campaign early in the war and taken Cairo, Suez and Port Said??? Gibralter?? And I think just deleting defensive forces and placing invasion forces on the map is NOT realistic...what about production needed to make the invasion forces. And the possiblity that the defense defeated the invasion attempts. I realize that doing the Pacific part (US subs versus Japan and the island hopping attacks would take some time to program)



82ndtrooper -> RE: waw update (9/30/2011 8:58:11 AM)

Nice Bwheatley

I have some other bugs that we have found that could use some attention if you can do them.

let me know please

cheers





bwheatley -> RE: waw update (9/30/2011 3:12:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 82ndtrooper

Nice Bwheatley

I have some other bugs that we have found that could use some attention if you can do them.

let me know please

cheers





Sure please pass the bugs on. :) I really like the ATg Waw scen but at the same time it's missing a lot of the work we all put into improving the original waw scen. ;)



ernieschwitz -> RE: waw update (9/30/2011 4:56:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley


quote:

ORIGINAL: 82ndtrooper

Nice Bwheatley

I have some other bugs that we have found that could use some attention if you can do them.

let me know please

cheers





Sure please pass the bugs on. :) I really like the ATg Waw scen but at the same time it's missing a lot of the work we all put into improving the original waw scen. ;)


I´m surprised you even compare them. To me they are completely different. Good luck improving it though, i am looking forward to it :)



ernieschwitz -> RE: waw update (9/30/2011 4:58:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LJBurstyn

I've done a lot of work on this game already...I've been working on German Submarine warfare against Western Allies AI since the AI moves production from Canada and USA to other locations...such as UK. This takes away in my opinion the German sub warfare against GB--which almost starved Britain during the early days of the war (until 1943). After I finished that I was going to work on the Air campaign using Western Allies AI to more accurately reflect the air campaign while playing the AI as I think the scenario does not do a good job at this.
I also moved some of the invasions because it did not accurately show the tactical, strategic and the political situation at the time. I've been working on alternate invasions to reflect the possible effect if events had not gone the way they did--what if German/Italian forces had won the North Africa campaign early in the war and taken Cairo, Suez and Port Said??? Gibralter?? And I think just deleting defensive forces and placing invasion forces on the map is NOT realistic...what about production needed to make the invasion forces. And the possiblity that the defense defeated the invasion attempts. I realize that doing the Pacific part (US subs versus Japan and the island hopping attacks would take some time to program)


Are you sure you are talking about WaW for ATG, and not WaW for AT?



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (9/30/2011 6:10:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz


quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley


quote:

ORIGINAL: 82ndtrooper

Nice Bwheatley

I have some other bugs that we have found that could use some attention if you can do them.

let me know please

cheers





Sure please pass the bugs on. :) I really like the ATg Waw scen but at the same time it's missing a lot of the work we all put into improving the original waw scen. ;)


I´m surprised you even compare them. To me they are completely different. Good luck improving it though, i am looking forward to it :)


Yea they are very different but if you think back to the V1 waw for AT and the last version everyone had finished it was a different scen all together.
In one version i even written a random weather system which was really cool. :)

Just be nice to add nifty things like that back in. Yea having resources and such is a really neat thing now. Helps make sure germany just does not steam roll everyone.



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (9/30/2011 9:35:24 PM)

Here is what i've been working on so far. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KmMmkJ7UhES2RtYMvGL-HS9h9-0ONXj1dPbcuz8KfrQ/edit?hl=en_US

I'm working on right now putting all the tech into stringlist functions so we can limit research by time. For now i was thinking you can have only certain techs per year and after i get that working i planned to change it to you can get techs early but it will cost a lot more.



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (9/30/2011 9:41:40 PM)

btw if anyone wants edit access to add their ideas in please shoot me your email and i'll add it.



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (10/1/2011 1:12:16 AM)

http://advancedtactics.org/scenario.php?nr=166&tpage=0&tplayer=0&ttag=2&tai=0&tdeleted=0&tengine=0

Here is the link to download what i have updated so far.



LJBurstyn -> RE: waw update (10/1/2011 3:10:46 PM)

The one I was talking about is WaW_Revised_U4_beta?



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (10/1/2011 5:44:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LJBurstyn

The one I was talking about is WaW_Revised_U4_beta?


Yea that's one of the last revisions for the AT version. The ATG version is a very different beast.



82ndtrooper -> RE: waw update (10/4/2011 2:08:43 PM)

hi
ok here are some bugs/fixes I suggest.

bug
cargo ships can carry naval air, about 30 of them. this allows you to in fact make a super carrier out of a cargo ship if done right and can completely ruin the naval aspect of the game.

bug
Germany cant attack china or declare war on china. This allows the west to give cities and research factories in England to china and have them completely safe from attack. so if london is under heavy attack just give it to china and poof attack over.

Germany and japan cannot give units or factories or cities etc... to each other, but the west can. thus there is nothing germany can do to help japan and japan is too small to fight Russia the west and the USA all at once. Even if Germany sent a fleet to help them the fleet couldnt even dock in Japan.
Allow Germany and japan to ally after the suez canal is taken by either one or something like that may fix it.

and the biggest problem is that factories are too cheap. But for the first year they are perfect in that if done right Germany can just take Norway western Europe and the Balkans without the west being able to stop it. But if germany struggles then the west can build up too quickly. In a game I am playing the west had 23 factories in NA and the pacific by dec 1941 and japan never had a chance.

I suggest something that raises the cost of Factories to 300pp AFTER Paris is taken to reflect inflation due to the world war.  This would slow done the rapid building of factories after france fell but would still not change the balance of the first 12 months. (maybe leave the chemical factories at 200pp if possible)
But this is still tricky because this event(fall of Paris) also brings japan and Russia into the game and will hurt their ability to build up if factories are 300pp so I suggest changing it so that Russia's and Japan's production starts 1 level higher to offset the raise in factory costs.

tell me what you guys think

cheers



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (10/5/2011 6:55:08 AM)

Ahh yea looks like the weight of naval air is only 1 when the rest of the planes are 10. Because aircraft carriers have to carry less then the weight of regular planes so that you can't station regular planes on aircraft carriers. But how can you use the naval air from the cargo ship? put a cargoship with a carrier then just transfer from inside the same hex?



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (10/5/2011 6:56:49 AM)

Oh good call about the bug for the chinese i'll add a card for germans to be able to attack china.



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (10/5/2011 6:57:06 AM)

btw 82nd would you be willing to play test updates with me?



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (10/5/2011 7:01:06 AM)

Ya i have the feeling that factories are a bit too cheap. Also seems like germany can really really build up very quickly and become an unstoppable behemoth.



82ndtrooper -> RE: waw update (10/5/2011 10:12:01 AM)

sure ill play test games if you need mate


as for the cargo ships lets just say you can build 3 or 4 cargo ships and put 60-80 planes in them and then move the cargo ships and attack with the planes on the same turn so you can greatly extend the range of the naval air.



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (10/5/2011 6:11:12 PM)

by unloading the cargo onto the shore? then the planes can fly?



zzmzzm -> RE: waw update (10/16/2011 11:36:49 AM)

Yes, I found then the planes can fly with full APs.



RufusTFirefly -> RE: waw update (10/16/2011 3:13:34 PM)

Hi,

great, that you rework WaW. [&o]

The missing air stack penalty spoils the whole game as well as the possibility to build lots of factories. I was really enoyed by a mass of factories my opponent has built and the need to produce hundreds of fighters to avoid being bombed out of the game by hugh fleets of enemy fighters and bombers.



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (10/16/2011 9:00:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RufusTFirefly

Hi,

great, that you rework WaW. [&o]

The missing air stack penalty spoils the whole game as well as the possibility to build lots of factories. I was really enoyed by a mass of factories my opponent has built and the need to produce hundreds of fighters to avoid being bombed out of the game by hugh fleets of enemy fighters and bombers.



Yea the air and arty stack stuff was pissing me off. And i've added in level 1 - 4 factories so you don't just get uber boosts to prod right away.



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (10/16/2011 11:36:58 PM)

I think i'd map this cargo ship issue as more of a bug that Vic should fix. It would be hard to fix this and it would require me to make the naval air heavier then a cargoship can carry but that would cause every other weight in the game to be out of wack.



Keunert -> RE: waw update (10/17/2011 6:27:09 AM)

great to hear that you make one of the most interesting scenario's available better. what's the timeframe for this? is it planned to release stable versions and then implement more stuff? or do plan to integrate all possible and release it later?



Keunert -> RE: waw update (10/19/2011 4:19:13 PM)

i think i found a bug: once vichy is created and once italy comes into play it is possible to occupy vichy citie's without playing the conquer vichy card. germany can do this too.



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (10/20/2011 12:20:04 AM)

@keunert i've been putting the updated scen on the ATG site http://advancedtactics.org/scenario.php?nr=166&tpage=0&tplayer=0&ttag=2&tai=0&tdeleted=0&tengine=0

Oh i'll look for that other bug now thanks! I haven't put the latest stuff up i'm trying to finish testing the basics of econ and make sure it seems decent. I know there will probably be issues with it that only a lohng game will discover but doing a little basic play testing should help.



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (10/20/2011 5:59:57 AM)

I just uploaded 2.1.22. It's too big for the at website so here is it. http://williamwheatley.com/billfiles/games/atg/scenarios/waw/Waw_atg_v2.1.22.atzip

I'll update the wiki now and get it updated there as well.

ChangeLog

v2.1.22
    Working on the Economy system values assigned to city types

Manpower used to calculate start manpower for a nation
      Town - 50Village - 25City - 100Capital - 200Major Capital - 400Colonial City - 100
    Lowered supply usage of partisan unitsAdded in the 1939 populations to all regimes in regimeslot #cut research centers down to only 500 prodpts from 1000removing carrying capacity from carriers but kept their aircapacityChanged cost of speers reorg to 1000PP before 1943 (then drops to 250)Made factories from level 1 to level 4gave germany a DoW on china card when japan is at war with chinaadded a pull up new draft class card..it will -5 morale everytime it’s used and be an additional 500PP every time you call it earlycreating a coastal defense unit which is static and can only be built once level 3 guns (1942/1943) have been researched. It is an expensive unit but is deadly defending against an enemy naval bombardment or air attack. Made TD’s half as effective in defense against tanks. With the way it was before there was no reason to both building Heavy Tanks.Engineers and worker battalions should have an easier time blowing up bridges nowsAdded People SS, Us Marines, Royal Marines, Siberians


v2.1.15
    increased airstack to be 250 for the smallest locations instead of 200.Increased minimum hexstack to 200


v2.1.14
    reverted rulevar #316,#317 (non-arty attack penalty) to .5 & .75 from .33 & .66 (combat was too bloody before)Gave the soviets tech III tank researchGave Western Allies tech 2 ships research Made levelbombers 3 + 4 require 4 enginesMade levelbombers require 2 pilots for all levelsAdding in manpower for most equipment that would require people to be on it.Increased the amount of PP that the soviets get when they move a city to the urals.



bwheatley -> RE: waw update (10/21/2011 9:16:53 PM)

I duplicated the vichy problem i'll see what i need to do to fix that. :)



ernieschwitz -> RE: waw update (10/21/2011 9:24:20 PM)

I found the vichy problem some time ago... and Tom corrected it, in a version he sent to me...

Want that version? I believe it has a few other fixes for some errors i found too



82ndtrooper -> RE: waw update (10/23/2011 6:33:38 PM)

We are running a test game with version 2.1.14

so far the air stack seems off because I am showing a penalty when i have 30 or 40 planes in a hex.

I also have concerns about manpower.

its April 1940 and I am already under 900 as Germany and I haven't even began to gear up for Russia.
every thing takes mp and I am just using 120mp a turn and going backward fast. at this rate in a year i will have 1000's of pp and nothing to spend it on because my mp will be 0.
what good is a factory or raising production when everything cost MP and you run out of MP so fast ? does raising production increase your mp production also ?

at guns and light arty shouldnt cost mp because it takes so many of them to be useful.
naval mp seems high also.

maybe increase the starting MP pool or increase mp production as you capture cities and towns ?

but not even having taken france and to be already concerned about MP dosnt seem right to me.

cheers



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