RE: Death to Marquo! (Full Version)

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M60A3TTS -> RE: Death to Marquo! (12/21/2012 11:18:08 AM)

TD, have you gone back into hiding? [;)]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Death to Marquo! (12/21/2012 11:18:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

TD, have you gone back into hiding? [;)]


Nope, I am here [:)]

Nothing really happened. No annihilation that is. I more or less managed to surround (with the Tank Armies) almost every turn some German units but counter-attacks always pushed me back. No German / Soviet annihilation. But at least Marquo has possibly understood he had to retreat (maybe I was correct when I had said the first strike had destroyed the German fortifications 2-3 hexes behind the German frontline, west of Tambov). And that's what he's doing. And this is what I wanted after all. Kursk is not that far so fair play [8D]

I will try to update (currently playing Turn 111).



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Death to Marquo! (12/22/2012 2:43:32 PM)

Turn 110
22 July 1943

Well, as I said nothing really important happened [:)]

If anything, up north like 2 turns ago he decided to retreat in the northern tip. Ergo his forces now are sort of cut in two. Advancing does not make any sense as my forces are already far from railways. But... I might capture the railway I need after all [8D]

Here I have two Stavka Armies (32nd and 39th) and one Tank Army. The artillery units are all brigades. The divisions are doing the real fighting in the south (aka Operation Crazy Ivan).

[image]local://upfiles/11562/03823B7DD8F74A2B91748FEDCA63146A.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Death to Marquo! (12/22/2012 2:50:51 PM)

As I said, in the Tambov, Voronezh areas he's retreated. The big river will be his defensive line, obviously.

Still, I am more interested in what happens in the north of this place.

[image]local://upfiles/11562/D95709F641044803A845F3BB4CE76623.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Death to Marquo! (12/24/2012 2:34:54 PM)

Well, not an update. Banquets & booze are waiting [sm=terms.gif]

Still, Merry Christmas! [:D]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Death to Marquo! (12/28/2012 5:17:34 PM)

Turn 111
29 July 1943

Ok, here is the update then [8D]

We keep pounding the scummy enemy and all I can say (in fact I can say much more than that) is I love the Artillery / Rocket Divisions thing! Remember that I keep them truly concentrated (except a half dozen in the south: Operation Crazy Anatoly that is).

And whilst we take no rest in Sicily they are having a good time! [8D]

[image]local://upfiles/11562/350A1EC5DF59462AB6F126645327187C.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Death to Marquo! (12/28/2012 5:27:33 PM)

As for the south, I wanted Marquo to abandon a bulge and then grab a particular rail hex. It's been done. I guess the presence of two stavka armies + one tank army + the artillery divisions finally convinced him.

Now I plan to push a little bit in the north, so I redirect these Stavka reserves. After all Marquo can now hide behind a big river (chicken!).

This movement (and if everything goes well obviously) might convince him to leave another bulge (the Boguchar area). Another tank army NW of that place might send him the message I want him to receive [;)]

We will see.

[image]local://upfiles/11562/484E9D43B94549B9A74602FD9FC8209D.jpg[/image]



Wuffer -> RE: Death to Marquo! (12/28/2012 7:39:36 PM)

Fine, but to be honest, I can't follow your logic - why attacking in the north? with the reconquest of Stalingrad operations at his 'neck' should be able, hitting him as far south as possible.
He makes a stand _before_ the Don... with minors?



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Death to Marquo! (12/28/2012 8:17:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wuffer
Fine, but to be honest, I can't follow your logic - why attacking in the north? with the reconquest of Stalingrad operations at his 'neck' should be able, hitting him as far south as possible.
He makes a stand _before_ the Don... with minors?


Well, first of all I need to grab many hexes if I want to get to the Reich. This is priority #1 to me now in summer 1943. I am hitting very hard in a place where he's concetrated forces (because he noticed I did the same). I still need these hexes or I will never (for real) get in time to Berlin. Will I get there? I don't think so by the way [:)]

By attacking a little bit in the north I am sort ot threatening to surround him (another bulge). And that of course means he might retreat on his own. And again, that's my top priority (grabbing hexes that is). And a little bit in the north I can maneuver.

Attacking in the south I have little options though. No flanks, a small axis of advance. And there is a big river where he will entrench his forces and then bring reserves to back them up.

That's my basically my "logic".

As for the minors, Marquo learned the historical lesson [:D] German units are almost always there to protect them. No easy victims that is. The only place where I could attack defenseless units was in the Leningrad area (the Finns).

I will follow the Soviet historical plan step by step. I will settle old scores with the minors in 1944 [:D]

But now I need to grab hexes, and hexes, and more hexes, please [:)]



Wuffer -> RE: Death to Marquo! (12/28/2012 9:25:21 PM)

thx for clearing, TD.
it's allways very easy to judge in a warm armchair as long you are not confrontated with all this minor and nasty details in the field... [:D]

perhaps you are right - it's a bit early for crossing the Don, better waiting for ice. But than...



M60A3TTS -> RE: Death to Marquo! (12/28/2012 9:40:18 PM)

I'd be attacking the south with the rifle corps first. Then throw in three tank and three cavalry/mechanized armies. And about 3,000 sturmoviks in support.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Death to Marquo! (12/28/2012 9:48:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wuffer

thx for clearing, TD.
it's allways very easy to judge in a warm armchair as long you are not confrontated with all this minor and nasty details in the field... [:D]

perhaps you are right - it's a bit early for crossing the Don, better waiting for ice. But than...


Nah, we're all armchair aficionados [:)]

I am not thinking about a direct approach or frontal assault in this area. Maybe I can indirectly threaten him from the north. Needless to say, the forces in the south will keep attacking if opportunities appear [8D] But no reiforcements, no artillery divisions will be sent there.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Death to Marquo! (12/28/2012 9:55:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

I'd be attacking the south with the rifle corps first. Then throw in three tank and three cavalry/mechanized armies. And about 3,000 sturmoviks in support.


I have to be a moron but I don't get the air war, really [&:] I have assigned to each of the two fronts in the main offensive area 3 air bases filled with planes = 27 air units.

Then when I want to bomb x German unit (before an attack) ok, some air units can be selected. But when I try to attack the next German unit I want to assault, almost NO air units are available (??). WTF?? There are plenty of them nearby!! why can't I choose them, why don't they appear?

In fact it is as if I had not assigned tons of IL-2s as I cannot put them to good use!



Klydon -> RE: Death to Marquo! (12/28/2012 9:58:06 PM)

TD is doing the right thing here. Punch someplace on the line. If the Germans don't respond, then keep punching until they do because it drains off important forces from other sectors of the line where the "real" fight is taking place. Velikiye Luki is a fine example of putting minor pressure someplace else from the main fight (Stalingrad area) that drew off important German reserves that could have headed to Stalingrad instead. Fighting around Rzhev also kept the Germans from sending more help to the Stalingrad area as well.




TulliusDetritus -> RE: Death to Marquo! (12/28/2012 10:08:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

TD is doing the right thing here. Punch someplace on the line. If the Germans don't respond, then keep punching until they do because it drains off important forces from other sectors of the line where the "real" fight is taking place. Velikiye Luki is a fine example of putting minor pressure someplace else from the main fight (Stalingrad area) that drew off important German reserves that could have headed to Stalingrad instead. Fighting around Rzhev also kept the Germans from sending more help to the Stalingrad area as well.




Yes, the north and south are simply sideshows. They are supposed to attract forces. The real pounding is in the center [:)] That's where I mercilessly attack turn after turn: the many Front and Stavka Armies rifle corps + 30 artillery / rocket divisions + armored and cavalry corps.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Death to Marquo! (12/28/2012 10:18:10 PM)

Anyway, up north I said I wanted the rail line and I will get it, or at least that's what we hope [sm=innocent0001.gif]

The two Stavka armies were gathered and their rifle corps striked backed by all the artillery brigades. The tank army advances and occupies the hex (swamp, let's see if he can dislodge me). I am adjacent to the rail junction now he he he.

No matter what, thet wo stavka armies and the tank army will be kept concentrated and... the orders are... keep pushing or die! [sm=00000622.gif]

[image]local://upfiles/11562/892EC5B110DB4651B9FDD8EF1A06CF5E.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Death to Marquo! (12/28/2012 10:40:58 PM)

And the center aka Operation Crazy Ivan. On this (and the last) turn even my forces near Moscow (rifle corps + the tank corps attached to Western Front) left the cave and striked. Haha serves them right!

Moscow should soon be relieved. Not that it was really threatened in the first place (except from turns 17-23 or so).

As I have said in this area alone I have the circa 30 Breakthrough / Rocket divisions, which are being put to good use every single turn [8D]

[image]local://upfiles/11562/FE981B0C6D784A4B83D677E0C7802AF2.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Death to Marquo! (12/28/2012 11:25:28 PM)

Rifle Corps were the priority. Now that my arsenal is quite full I am starting to use some APs to build a couple of armored units each turn. I plan to have eleven mechanized corps, as per history IIRC.

I know my tank armies have to contain 2 x Tank Corps + 1 x Mechanized Corps

Therefore there will be six mechanized free corps, which I plan to use as a reserve, but always trying to assign them to a Front (not armies). The Western Front had a tank corps attached many moons ago (they striked this turn near Moscow). And the two fronts involved in the main offensive already have independent tank and cavalry corps attached to them, which are obviously supporting the operations.

[image]local://upfiles/11562/1FE18546447C4218AC5059E68C4AD021.jpg[/image]



Wuffer -> RE: Death to Marquo! (12/29/2012 6:50:35 AM)

hmm, that looks much more promising than a few weeks before.
Klydon, the thinking behind attacking south is the forced retreat of the whole north _without_ a fight for every (fortified) hex. But I would be the first to admit that it doesn't matter where you are hitting him aslong as you hitting hard enough - the German infantry should/would/could never ever recouver and that is the decision in the end. [:)]


ms edith: forgot a [:)]



Wuffer -> RE: Death to Marquo! (12/29/2012 6:56:22 AM)

like you additional mech corps as long as you could spare the trucks. The result of the unlucky 5th Tank army would have been quite different if there had been two mech XXX :-)
btw, someone advocates somewhere (I forget) to simply rout German units, particularly panzers, instead of mostly unsuccessful pockets - which has proved very effectice in my humple experience.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Death to Marquo! (1/9/2013 11:43:28 PM)

Turn 113
12 August 1943

Ok [8D]

Up north I should be unleashing some hell and capture the hexes I need. Then I might repair the rail hexes and keep trashing the Finns that cowardly escaped towards the north. And this we can't have it! [sm=00000612.gif]

Two armies (the 7th and 23rd) are waiting without anything better to do. And they smell blood, as only mere 1:1 [terrorized] ants await up north!

Near Tula Marquo keeps retreating, leaving buffer hexes behind. And finally in the south the scummy Axis forces are leaving the wrong side of the river and plan (I guess) to hide behind this aforementioned river near Rostov.

A screenshot is worth a thousand words so here you have it. Pre Soviet moves but recon planes already used.

[image]local://upfiles/11562/EFF035B416E14571BC740D9B8841605E.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Death to Marquo! (1/9/2013 11:51:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wuffer

like you additional mech corps as long as you could spare the trucks. The result of the unlucky 5th Tank army would have been quite different if there had been two mech XXX :-)
btw, someone advocates somewhere (I forget) to simply rout German units, particularly panzers, instead of mostly unsuccessful pockets - which has proved very effectice in my humple experience.


I don't think I can't spare the trucks, but the Red Army is basically short on trucks so... [:)]

Yes, I guess routing them panzers is better given that so far he's always pushed me back (I mean, no annihilation as yet). And a routed panzer thing has to be a good thing, indeed. I will try to remember that [:)]

Anyway I will follow this rule of thumb: each Tank Army will only get 2 x Tank Corps + 1 x Mechanized Corps. As per history and CPs available.

In fact some if not all the Tank Armies are overloaded, have more than 3 corps. When I can afford it I will fix that, reassigning the excess of corps to Stavka, which thus be sent to wherever they might be needed (always attached to Fronts though).



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Death to Marquo! (1/10/2013 12:00:10 AM)

And along with the Rifle Corps I keep harvesting Tank and Mechanized Corps... Now I have five of each (I mean recently harvested, refitting in the rear).

To have the eleven historical mechanized corps I have to "merge" 9 mechanized brigades and that's it: 60 APs that is and we're done.

As for Tank Corps I currently have 21.

[image]local://upfiles/11562/E94B9EE2BD1F4EA98BC67529113A9522.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Death to Marquo! (1/10/2013 12:32:22 AM)

Ok, first round up north. Five rifle corps + some divisional units, the lot of them backed by 7 Artillery brigades striked... er... a fiasco [:D]

But I brought the armoured hordes aka the 2nd Tank Army (3 corps) and along with some infantry units and artillery brigades with MPs left striked again. The enemy chickens ran away this time! One more hex and we are done [sm=00000622.gif]

Losses, basically Red Army: 3.000 men; Wehrmacht & friends: 2.000 [8D]

[image]local://upfiles/11562/BF22BEC0B79C4F5FA6D77CC7F2062FA1.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Death to Marquo! (1/15/2013 12:37:47 AM)

Ok... I have sent Marquo the resignation letter [:)]

I see no point in continuing. As I see it, Marquo had his two years of fun: the two summer offensives (1941-1942).

But all I will have is pushing my not-so strong army to... Warsaw? Not really my cup of tea as each turn would be a sort of torture. And we play for fun.

I will NOT mention / blame the game. Marquo has simply won fair and square. Period [:)]

Thank you everyone for all the kind advices, comments, etc. [8D]



hfarrish -> RE: Death to Marquo! (1/15/2013 1:16:09 AM)


Just out of curiosity, any chance you could post a full shot of the situation and OOBs as of the end?

No shame in playing through the really hard part and ending things now. I'm sure Marquo would agree.



Klydon -> RE: Death to Marquo! (1/15/2013 6:10:25 PM)

Still a very entertaining read as always TD. I really appreciate the amount of work you put into these. Makes them "must read" to me. [:)]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Death to Marquo! (1/15/2013 9:27:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish
Just out of curiosity, any chance you could post a full shot of the situation and OOBs as of the end?


Of course [:)]

[image]local://upfiles/11562/240EE7E856EE46BC8AD9130D7EC81698.jpg[/image]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Death to Marquo! (1/15/2013 9:32:23 PM)

And the map.

[image]local://upfiles/11562/4F53656CEBF44830BDCD87E07AF3EF86.jpg[/image]



mmarquo -> RE: Death to Marquo! (1/15/2013 10:11:50 PM)

I have with regret and some pangs of remorse accepted TD's terms of peace. Remorse because he is a true gentleman and I will miss his witty email correspondance. He is the epitome of the perfect opponent.

From my POV I attempted a "southern" approach to the game: capture as many manpower producing locals as possible. Stalingrad and other places east fell in the spring of 1942. This, coupled with a relentless "grinding"strategy seems to have paid off. While Berlin will not fall, I am sure that the game was going to end in a draw, perhaps minor Axis victory.

A public tip of the tip and expression of gratitute to mon cher ami, TD. [&o]

Marquo



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