RE: Fast Forward (Full Version)

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76mm -> RE: Fast Forward (2/15/2012 6:31:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

Create a "historical" game and you'll be playing the AI.


I for one would rather play a historical game vs the AI than a fantasy game vs another player. There are plenty of fantasy games out there already, this is not supposed to be one of them.



AFV -> RE: Fast Forward (2/15/2012 12:10:24 PM)

76mm
I guess that depends on what you define as fantasy. Is the Germans capturing Leningrad "fantasy" and you frown upon it? Or the Soviets keeping the Germans hundreds of miles away from Stalingrad? You make it sound like the only "good" game in WITE is one that follows historical timelines and results. If you just want simulation, then it needs to be AI vs AI, and tweak the results until the desired historical outcome is achieved.

I think the results of a game can/should vary from a German runaway to the Soviets pushing the Germans back in 43, depending on the skills of the players (even if their skills are close, sometimes we just have a bad game and play poorly).



vicberg -> RE: Fast Forward (2/15/2012 1:27:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm


quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

Create a "historical" game and you'll be playing the AI.


I for one would rather play a historical game vs the AI than a fantasy game vs another player. There are plenty of fantasy games out there already, this is not supposed to be one of them.


Same arguments. I don't fault people for wanting a historical game. But a historical game would be fun for both players for 2 years and then it would be an exercise in mouse clicks. Leningrand shouldn't fall. Germans should be held short of Moscow or possible take it and then lose it in subsequent winter. 42 would be interesting but with NO chance of a German victory. Then Soviets steamroll. Keep going with these arguments, influence the devs accordingly, and you'll be playing the historical game against the AI. How fun is that going to be?

Make the game competitive. Give both sides a chance to win, no matter how "unhistorical" or you will not be able to find a German player. Have fun with that.



vicberg -> RE: Fast Forward (2/15/2012 1:53:52 PM)

And I have to say this.  There is very little that's currently historical in this game.  It's a game, a great one at that. 

I'm not an expert on the East Front, but the Germans shouldn't be losing over 1 million in the 1941 Soviet Counter Attack in 41.  Estimates have the losses around 600-700k IRL, certainly not the 1 to 1.5 million casualties experienced in this game.  Conversely, if the Germans want to take Leningrad in 41, it should be at the cost of advance somewhere else as AGN did not have the juice to take it, IRL.  And we already know that the Germans are collapsing far too quickly in 43.  Also, not historical.  in WITPAE, if 2by3 hadn't of increased Japanese ASW (since the jap merchant fleet was decimated by 43 IRL), increase Jap airplane quality and pilot quality, no one would play the japs.  Because they did, it's still a very active game.  I'm playing a "historical" variant of it, with reduced ASW and transport capabilities and it's boring as hell.  In IRL, the Japanese should have never gone to war.  This mod reflects that and I'm not going to play it again.  It's dull.

This is a game with two players and both players should have the capability to win and have fun.  Otherwise, this game will be a waste of time. 



Fishbed -> RE: Week 80- Closing in (2/15/2012 2:37:05 PM)

I think that Pelton may be biting more than he can chew, for once. You have to send your whole army east and blow his penetration, infiltrate his lines, isolate units, blowing those you can. He won't be able to reconnect everyone at the same time and still expect to make a junction with the southern group (which seems a tad weak to advance successfully by itself). You can make a différence right now and unbulge all your brave men!



M60A3TTS -> Let's return the conversation to this game (2/15/2012 4:02:17 PM)

Everyone has an opportunity to discuss what they believe would make a fun, fair or balanced game of WiTE in other threads.

It would now be better for folks to take those conversations to the appropriate places.

I appreciate people taking the time to follow this AAR.

[sm=sign0031.gif]



kevini1000 -> RE: Let's return the conversation to this game (2/15/2012 6:25:10 PM)

Your not going to have a historical outcome in this game since players of good skill and understanding the game mechanics are for the most part not going to make the same mistakes as their historical counterparts.



Q-Ball -> RE: Let's return the conversation to this game (2/15/2012 10:19:41 PM)

Back to the game....

M60, why do you not have units on the hills west of Saratov? Or any units in that area whatsoever?

Can't see the whole front, but looks like Western and Bryansk fronts are stacked 5 units-deep, 2 up front, 3 in the rear. Are you expecting an attack in this sector? I think Pelton is all-in where he is at. Why are you keeping units up there? I would bet the collective farm that sector is safe, and you can go 2-deep, freeing up hordes of Rifle units where you really need them.

....because you are choosing NOT to defend the very places Pelton is attacking. He is presenting you an opportunity here by really overextending, but you are not in a position to take advantage of it. In fact, you are at risk of have a catastrophic pocket, because you have lots of mobile units stuck near Borisogobelsk, and nothing to the east of there, where Pelton is attacking you. Unless you count those Mech Bdes as Mobile units, but those are just nicer Tank Bdes.

Anyway, I bet you have 350 divisions. And you are defending the Panzer swarm with about 10 of them right now.



Flaviusx -> RE: Let's return the conversation to this game (2/15/2012 10:23:57 PM)

Panzer ball. The swarm is the rifle swarm. [:)]

Anyways, once again...what Q-ball sez.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Let's return the conversation to this game (2/17/2012 2:42:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Back to the game....

M60, why do you not have units on the hills west of Saratov? Or any units in that area whatsoever?

Can't see the whole front, but looks like Western and Bryansk fronts are stacked 5 units-deep, 2 up front, 3 in the rear. Are you expecting an attack in this sector? I think Pelton is all-in where he is at. Why are you keeping units up there? I would bet the collective farm that sector is safe, and you can go 2-deep, freeing up hordes of Rifle units where you really need them.

....because you are choosing NOT to defend the very places Pelton is attacking. He is presenting you an opportunity here by really overextending, but you are not in a position to take advantage of it. In fact, you are at risk of have a catastrophic pocket, because you have lots of mobile units stuck near Borisogobelsk, and nothing to the east of there, where Pelton is attacking you. Unless you count those Mech Bdes as Mobile units, but those are just nicer Tank Bdes.

Anyway, I bet you have 350 divisions. And you are defending the Panzer swarm with about 10 of them right now.


Saratov is important but not critical part of the front at this time.

Way back when the Pelton's attacks in the Ivanovo sector came to an end, there were elements of Leningrad, Northwest, Kalinin, Western and Bryansk Fronts along with STAVKA armies all bunched up there. Quite a number of turns later, the Bryansk and Western Fronts have managed to work their way south while maintaining the current front lines. The goal is to have the same area of the Ivanovo sector under the control of Northwest and Kalinin Fronts only. This does take time to do.

No doubt Pelton sees what you do, the chance to land the fatal blow to the Red Army.

But along the Medveditsa River, a tributary of the Don, this man has a date with destiny at the quiet town of Krasny Yar.

[image]http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/eacarter2/Rodion.jpg[/image]



glvaca -> RE: Let's return the conversation to this game (2/18/2012 5:07:05 AM)

Q-ball has a point though. IF you don't have the initiative you have to react to your opponents move. It's time to send in everything but the kitchen sink and check the penatration to the East to avoid encirclement of your units holding the front and counter attacking the base of the Axis penetration. You cannot counter attack the base, without checking the penetration, both things need to be done together.

I'm not a fan of 1 unit stacks. There're too easy to deal with for the German player.

2 unit stacks upfront, carpet 1 or 2 deep behind on reserve, 2 deep stacks a couple of hexes behind that to restrict mobility (also on reserve) and which need to deliberately attacked by the panzers. Reserve armies behind that. Above all, don't let him run wild in your rear! IF you're going to counter attack the base of the penetration, cover the flanks!



M60A3TTS -> Fast Forward Part Deux (2/20/2012 5:45:32 PM)

Week 80- continued

With the war at a critical point, STAVKA committed Rodion Malinovsky's 20th Army of Kalinin Front to secure the right flank of Voronezh and Southwestern Front. 20th Army detrained at the town of Krasny Yar and the four guards rifle corps took up positions. A simultaneous attack to the east by several tank corps cut in behind the 3rd Motorized Division which left it isolated and already reported short of supply.

[image]http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/6660/peltont80e.jpg[/image]

Week 83- 14.1.43

The German offensive stalls as their tank forces have been worn down by weather and battle. More Soviet reserve forces appear from the northeast. STAVKA 32nd and 34th Armies advance in the area of Saransk-Penza. From the east, the new Southwestern Front's 5th Shock Army with cavalry and mechanized divisions are also advancing.

In the southeast, the Red Army force the Germans to give more ground.

[image]http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/1939/peltont83.jpg[/image]

Week 86- 4.2.43

Soviet forces continue to advance. Penza has been liberated.
Total forces in the field are now 6.5 million.
Red Army artillery divisions are growing. The are now 20 of these units in the field or being organized along with 4 guards rocket launcher divisons.

[image]http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7537/peltont86.jpg[/image]



glvaca -> RE: Fast Forward Part Deux (2/20/2012 10:47:05 PM)

Now that's more like it! WELL DONE!



randallw -> RE: Fast Forward Part Deux (2/20/2012 11:12:57 PM)

He might snap those little brigades into pieces as he withdraws.



M60A3TTS -> Week 89 (3/9/2012 4:03:18 AM)

Week 89- 25.2.43

The Red Army is grinding forward east of Tambov.

Northwest of Boguchar, the SS has reappeared along with the GD Division and with several motorized and panzer divisions pockets a rifle and guards tank corps along with a guards rifle division.

Red Army divisional artillery assets: 22 Artillery divisions, 5 Guards Rocket Launcher divisions

[image]http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/4876/peltont89.jpg[/image]




M60A3TTS -> Week 93 (3/10/2012 3:39:02 PM)

Week 93- 25.3.43

The last snow turn before mud arrives to enforce some quiet time on the front.

[image]http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/8742/peltont93.jpg[/image]



M60A3TTS -> Week 103 (3/17/2012 2:59:51 AM)

Week 103- 3.6.43

Ten weeks later and there isn't a lot to report other than the fact I lost my hard drive and had to get it replaced. Fortunately I managed to salvage the spreadsheet with all my numbers.

The Spring rains and mud meant only some attacks have been launched as the Red Army prepares for the Summer '43 offensive.

Here is the current OOB

[image]http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/eacarter2/T103.jpg[/image]

16th Army under I. Bagramyan has been re-designated 2nd Guards Army.
Steppe Front has been activated. Colonel-General K. Rokossovsky is slated to take command from Marshal G. Kulik next week.

Red Army structure
53 rifle corps
28 tank corps
12 cavalry corps
11 mechanized corps

273 rifle divisions
37 artillery and rocket divisions

Most of the heavy fighting is east of Tambov as advanced units are now 30 miles from the city.



M60A3TTS -> Week 105 (3/17/2012 4:34:19 PM)

Week 105

The Red Army summer offensive failed to make any progress against the fort line which Pelton constructed. A lot of panzer regiments that had broken down from their parent divisions saw reserve battle commitments succeed.

I've told Pelton that I'm going to put the game down for a while. I'm not sure if there is something more to be figured out, but if the guards rifle corps, the tank corps and the artillery divisions can't move the line, the Germans have their Lebensraum for the forseeable future.



76mm -> RE: Week 105 (3/17/2012 6:36:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
I've told Pelton that I'm going to put the game down for a while. I'm not sure if there is something more to be figured out, but if the guards rifle corps, the tank corps and the artillery divisions can't move the line, the Germans have their Lebensraum for the forseeable future.


Hey now, that sounds like defeatism! No offense, but I think you must be doing something wrong... Within a narrow sector, once I had concentrated my forces, I had no problems pushing a strong German line back (the problem was everywhere else), albeit slowly. OK, you've got guards rifle corps, tank corps, and ArtDivs--what about sappers? Two per corps? You should be able to push them back pretty easily...



Flaviusx -> RE: Week 105 (3/17/2012 6:41:46 PM)

I see Pelton has figured out how to use reserves. Your best bet to counter that may be offensive reserves. But, frankly, it's difficult to see you doing better than a draw at this stage and more likely a minor German victory is in the cards. It's hard to recover from a poor 42.



karonagames -> RE: Week 105 (3/18/2012 12:00:11 AM)

The number of reserve triggers will always be highest when units are rested and have zero fatigue. The numbers will get lower as losses and fatigue start to bite.



hfarrish -> RE: Week 105 (3/18/2012 12:01:20 AM)


Too bad, because this AAR has gotten me excited about picking the game back up (even as a generally Red Army guy). Burned out in mid-2011 but the changes by and large seem to be positive and hell, Pelton seems to have nothing to do but play this game all day every day so losing to him is no shame.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Week 105 (3/18/2012 7:39:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
I've told Pelton that I'm going to put the game down for a while. I'm not sure if there is something more to be figured out, but if the guards rifle corps, the tank corps and the artillery divisions can't move the line, the Germans have their Lebensraum for the forseeable future.


Hey now, that sounds like defeatism! No offense, but I think you must be doing something wrong... Within a narrow sector, once I had concentrated my forces, I had no problems pushing a strong German line back (the problem was everywhere else), albeit slowly. OK, you've got guards rifle corps, tank corps, and ArtDivs--what about sappers? Two per corps? You should be able to push them back pretty easily...


Thanks for the encouragement, but when my units refuse to fight it's time to strike the tent. Here's a battle where I lost 1.8:1. I had 6 sapper regiments but only 3 showed up in the combat results. Maybe there is some variable commitment? Had all 6 regiments participated in reducing the fort to zero, I should have won this battle. Was not to be.

[image]http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/9585/pel1e.jpg[/image]



karonagames -> RE: Week 105 (3/18/2012 10:59:44 PM)

Sorry to inflict a "from the manual" cut and paste on you:

15.4.1. SUPPORT UNIT COMMITMENT
The maximum number of attached support units that can be commitment by headquarters
units to a single battle is 6, with the exception where the defending combat units are in a
light urban or heavy urban hex, where the maximum is 18. Support unit commitment from
headquarters units is not automatic. For each support unit attempting to be committed, the
leader of that headquarters must pass an initiative check. The support unit must then pass
several checks, with the checks becoming more difficult based both on the number of support
units already committed and the total number of non-construction support units attached
to the headquarters unit. This means that Headquarters units with large numbers of nonconstruction
support units will have more opportunities to commit support units; however the
overall probability of each support unit being committed will be less than if the headquarters
units had fewer non-construction support units. Support units directly attached to eligible
combat units will be automatically committed to a battle involving that combat unit and do not
count against the HQ unit maximums discussed above. Note that the only combat units that
artillery support units can be directly attached to are fortified region and zone units (7.5.2).



M60A3TTS -> RE: Week 105 (3/18/2012 11:03:28 PM)

BigA, I think you're making my point.

Support units directly attached to eligible combat units will be automatically committed to a battle involving that combat unit and do not count against the HQ unit maximums discussed above



karonagames -> RE: Week 105 (3/18/2012 11:41:43 PM)

Either the manual is wrong or the code is - worth posting something in the bug section. Looking at you screen shots, there may be a problem.



henri51 -> RE: Week 105 (3/19/2012 1:48:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Either the manual is wrong or the code is - worth posting something in the bug section. Looking at you screen shots, there may be a problem.


I was just looking at one of my attacks against Leningrad, and one attack by a stack of 3 Divisions had over 25 attached units in the battle report. Some of them may have come from nearby units on reserve.

Henri



76mm -> RE: Week 105 (3/19/2012 3:45:31 AM)

M60, maybe I'm missing something in the screen shot, but I don't get what point you are trying to make about the support units? You had three pioneer units directly attached to corps, and it looks like they all fought, but the ones attached to your armies did not? I'm not sure, but when committing SU from HQs, maybe the computer looks at what is already attached to the combat unit and says, "nah, there are already plenty of sappers there, I won't commit more"...

I attached more sappers directly to my corps--usually 2 per corps, and almost always had 14-20 engineer points in a battle, whereas you have 7; while it would have been nice if your 7k art tubes made a bigger difference, I think when attacking forts you need lots of both sappers and arty.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Week 105 (3/19/2012 4:09:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

M60, maybe I'm missing something in the screen shot, but I don't get what point you are trying to make about the support units? You had three pioneer units directly attached to corps, and it looks like they all fought, but the ones attached to your armies did not? I'm not sure, but when committing SU from HQs, maybe the computer looks at what is already attached to the combat unit and says, "nah, there are already plenty of sappers there, I won't commit more"...

I attached more sappers directly to my corps--usually 2 per corps, and almost always had 14-20 engineer points in a battle, whereas you have 7; while it would have been nice if your 7k art tubes made a bigger difference, I think when attacking forts you need lots of both sappers and arty.


Hey 76mm. There were three sapper regiments attached to the corps units that did not participate in the battle and according to the manual, they should have all been engaged. Why weren't they? That is my point. I shouldn't have had to assigned extras according to the manual as I read it.



Scook_99 -> RE: Week 105 (3/19/2012 3:43:33 PM)

My only thought could be the unit density rule, where you have beyond a certain value in an attack and each unit has to roll to see how much it participates in a battle. I am assuming that includes attached support units to each corps. I do not see your AT guns participating either, and I think the SU included are the one that made dice checks. No, I don't remember the rule exactly, or when it was added (1.04 or higher). If I can find the unit density rule(s) I will copy and paste it.



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