Week 72 and 73 (Full Version)

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M60A3TTS -> Week 72 and 73 (2/7/2012 3:10:39 PM)

Week 72 and 73: 29.10-42- 5.11.42

The remaining two turns of mud as November arrives. Little action on either side, so both have a chance to rest up.
12th Tank Corps is redesignated 5th Guards Tank Corps.
5th Artillery Division is being organized.
Some armies are shifting divisions around to get under the command cap of 18.

OOB
[image]http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8393/peltonoobweek73.jpg[/image]

Ground losses
[image]http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/6130/peltonlossest73.jpg[/image]



M60A3TTS -> Fast Forward (2/10/2012 5:34:39 AM)

Weeks 74-76. Three weeks of snow saw both sides continue to rest. Approximately 150,000 men joined the ranks of the Red Army to put total strength at close to 6.6 million. Meanwhile, since the summer campaign ended, over 800 panzers have joined German front line units.

Week 77- 3.12.42

With the rivers frozen, the blizzard offensive has begun. But it's Pelton's panzerwaffe that has struck, cutting through the Don Front. At least 17 panzer and 8 motorized divisions are identified as committed to the attack. Measures are underway to organize the Soviet defense.

End of Week 76
[image]http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/2514/peltonendturn76.jpg[/image]

Start of Week 77
[image]http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4653/peltont77blizzard.jpg[/image]



randallw -> RE: Fast Forward (2/10/2012 7:01:02 AM)

Woof! Now that's a fistfull of armor.

That's 15 identified Pz divs plus two unknown; that leaves a few unaccounted for.



randallw -> RE: Week 71- Oasis in the desert (2/10/2012 7:08:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Try to steer more tank corps into tank armies, and yeah, I know that's a hefty AP expense. That mech/admin bonus is kind of a big deal. It makes your historical tank leaders competitive with German ones.

Failing that, guards or shock armies give you an admin bonus which is more useful for mobile units than rifle units, imo. I'm actually planning on putting all my cav corps into shock armies until I run out of those. I figure you can squeeze them all in about 4 shock armies and not be overloaded.



So a shock army HQ provides an admin bonus? I thought it was just a morale bonus ( for non-Guards that are not 'specialized' units ).



vlcz -> RE: Week 71- Oasis in the desert (2/10/2012 7:36:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

So a shock army HQ provides an admin bonus? I thought it was just a morale bonus ( for non-Guards that are not 'specialized' units ).


Another change in 1.05.059

c. Shock Armies and Guards Armies no longer provide a morale bonus to units that report to them (instead they provide a bonus of +1 to their leader’s admin rating).

I really need an upgraded manual or at least a changes log



randallw -> RE: Week 71- Oasis in the desert (2/10/2012 8:25:55 AM)

Ah, I haven't gone to one of the patches released in the recent weeks yet.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Fast Forward (2/11/2012 3:02:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

Woof! Now that's a fistfull of armor.

That's 15 identified Pz divs plus two unknown; that leaves a few unaccounted for.


A further air recon shows all those unaccounted divisions in the same breakthrough area. [:(]

I don't know that there's an answer for this. Handling 25-30 mobile divisions seems downright impossible. If anyone has any suggestions, now would be a good time to raise them.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Fast Forward (2/11/2012 3:13:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

Woof! Now that's a fistfull of armor.

That's 15 identified Pz divs plus two unknown; that leaves a few unaccounted for.


A further air recon shows all those unaccounted divisions in the same breakthrough area. [:(]

I don't know that there's an answer for this. Handling 25-30 mobile divisions seems downright impossible. If anyone has any suggestions, now would be a good time to raise them.


Be ready for the blizzard [sm=00000622.gif]

I've seen this same über mass (aka concentrated) of mobile forces. I concur with what you say. That or I suck!



M60A3TTS -> RE: Fast Forward (2/11/2012 3:17:39 AM)

The Red Army is at 301 rifle divisions plus these tank, cav and rifle corps

[image]http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/273/p77tankcorps.jpg[/image]
[image]http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/9088/pelt77infcorps.jpg[/image]



Flaviusx -> RE: Fast Forward (2/11/2012 4:50:11 AM)

Where are your own mobile units at?

The only real answer is to pounce on them with everything you've got, and to keep uncommitted mobile units in reaction range of the panzers at all times. They can be counterattacked when they're out in the open like this.

I think you built too many rifle corps and not enough tank corps. 30 odd rifle corps in 1942 is a hefty expense. They're relatively immobile and cannot shift well dug in Germans without lavish artillery support. The pre-October TOE for them is unexceptional at best. Mass builds for these units really should wait until 1943. They're poorly suited for mobile defense. They're also inflexible in terms of reattachments. I actually prefer swarms of rifle divisions for this purpose. I would have built far fewer rifle corps. A half dozen or at most a dozen. And jacked up the numbers of tank corps and kept a wary eye on the panzers and left a substantial portion of them uncommitted nearby (but not too nearby. The trick is finding the right range for them to react without getting sucked into a pocket during the Axis turn.)

With 30 odd mobile corps (including cav corps) you should have enough to do some hitting and running while at the same time keeping the panzers honest.

BG was doing a pretty good job keeping the panzers down to a dull roar in his game with Q-ball, for whatever that's worth, ask him what he did. (I know he became disenchanted with the game, but I think he was managing things quite nicely.)



randallw -> RE: Fast Forward (2/11/2012 8:36:06 AM)

How effective can those tank corps be with those levels of morale/experience? Even with reasonable armor ratings for leaders that looks like a lot of T-34s about to die.



Baelfiin -> RE: Fast Forward (2/11/2012 8:57:50 AM)

Randal i think you wouold have to use them to make an attack then scamper back to a more protected position,



76mm -> RE: Fast Forward (2/11/2012 10:07:31 AM)

What kind of strategic reserves do you have? At this point in game I had two full fronts in reserve and was more of afraid of the small local encirclements than the big stuff like this, which could be countered by my strategic reserves (although of course it will be fun making sure that your reserves are not pocketed in the process!).

Great AAR, now go get him!



M60A3TTS -> Week 78 (2/11/2012 8:41:12 PM)

Week 78- 10.12.42

Pelton pockets six more divisions and rapidly expands the breach. His forces head north and south, threatening a pocket of the Volkhov and Voronezh Fronts. Penza falls.

[image]http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/eacarter2/PeltonT78.jpg[/image]



randallw -> RE: Week 78 (2/11/2012 9:30:44 PM)

If you feel desperate you may want to try running beyond his supply radius. He can't possibly drop enough fuel/supply to keep all those divisions close to full.



kevini1000 -> RE: Week 78 (2/11/2012 9:46:41 PM)

It looks as though he is also taking advantage of the rail line situation in this area as well.



Encircled -> RE: Week 78 (2/11/2012 10:16:35 PM)

If those Pz and Motorised units are single stacks, then it should be very easy indeed to rout them.

If you have reserves that is!

A '42 German motorised division, with over 50% fatigue, little fuel and in the open will be lucky if it defends at strength "4", and Panzers are just as bad.

If you have no reserves, then he can do it, but if you do, then enjoy!



Flaviusx -> RE: Week 78 (2/11/2012 10:37:32 PM)

Yes, I quite agree. It's totally possible to smack single German mobile divisions at the ragged edge of a breakthrough, particularly in clear terrain. This is doable from the getgo as a matter of fact (I've done it as early as turn 2.) But if you haven't got the forces to respond, then it's a no go.




kevini1000 -> RE: Week 78 (2/11/2012 11:18:44 PM)

You might have to just hang on till 43 now. I wouldn't expect Pelton to attack like this in 43. He'll still attack but not in this manner.



Q-Ball -> RE: Week 78 (2/11/2012 11:25:34 PM)

I think B-G did a few things to keep me limited, because I would really have liked to roam the way Pelton is.

Primarily, B-G had depth to his defenses. His typical structure was only a single Rifle Division up-front, and usually only 1 more in the 2nd row. The strongest units were placed, and dug-in, 3-5 hexes back of the front.

I have noticed M60 that you have alot of double and triple stacks up front. This is not a good idea (it ONLY is if you are defending a river line or something that would make it impregnible). The reason is that German Infantry with Panzer support can move almost ANY stack in clear terrain. What German Infantry has much more trouble with is moving a stack 3 hexes back of the front, after having to fight through 2 units. Once Panzers have to spend 16 MPs blowing through that 3rd hex back of the front, it doesn't leave much for exploitation.

You need to stack less and spread out more. Never have more than 1 unit right at the front. Of course this means that those single units are vulnerable to attack all the time, but the Germans won't push all of them willy-nilly, because the losses would really pile up for the Wehrmacht doing that. Unlike 1941, in 1942 a straight-up fight on a single Rifle unit will typically kill 2 Russians for every German; not a favorable ratio. That is, unless the unit routs.

That's what B-G did, and it was effective. I managed to consistently pocket some units, but never acheived a runaway, and all that fighting meant my losses in summer of 1942 haven't been light.

PS: Rifle Corps are not defensive units, and should not be built until you have the overall initative (or it's at least even). Rifle Divisions are not assault units, but are just fine for defense, as even if they lose, they can inflict losses on the attackers.



Flaviusx -> RE: Week 78 (2/11/2012 11:30:34 PM)

Q-ball makes an excellent point here about stacking. This is another reason why rifle divisions are preferable to corps in 42, btw. Yes, you can breakdown corps and get similar results, but it's kind of a waste of APs to do so. Nor does the reassignment issue go away with breakdowns.

The key here isn't necessarily to stop an Axis advance cold, but to absorb it, and give your reserves time and space to react to them. Putting everything up front means that any breakthrough is disastrous.

Spreading out also allows you to make ample use of the reserve stance. If you start putting a ton of units on reserve something will react, and this can spoil attacks. It makes it much harder to plan out an offensive when the attacker can't really be sure what he's fighting against. He will tend to overcompensate and put in attacks with more forces than strictly necessary, thus slowing him down -- this is eating into his MPs.

Q-ball, I slightly disagree with you about rifle divisions in terms of offensive capability. They actually have some. They can certainly attack single Axis divisions in the open. What they cannot do is punch a hole through a strong Axis defense, and that's what corps are for as you noted. A few rifle divisions with a stiffening of mobile units can counterattack just fine.

The truly useless units here are the brigades.




Seminole -> RE: Week 78 (2/12/2012 12:19:13 AM)

quote:

The truly useless units here are the brigades.


I keep them for three purposes:

1 - to combine for making rifle corps
2 - maintain/buildup fortifications
3 - as a screen to create EZOC and hasty attack costs behind the main line of resistance.  Less of an impact with a rivers frozen, but better than airfields for stemming the tide. :)

I think M60's biggest problem is still lack of on map counters, right?  How many Corps/Div/Bde do you actually have to sponge this blow?



M60A3TTS -> RE: Week 78 (2/12/2012 1:27:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

The truly useless units here are the brigades.


I keep them for three purposes:

1 - to combine for making rifle corps
2 - maintain/buildup fortifications
3 - as a screen to create EZOC and hasty attack costs behind the main line of resistance.  Less of an impact with a rivers frozen, but better than airfields for stemming the tide. :)

I think M60's biggest problem is still lack of on map counters, right?  How many Corps/Div/Bde do you actually have to sponge this blow?



First off, since the start of the summer campaign, and that of course doesn't include the earlier March Madness stuff which I wasn't even aware of until after the fact, I've lost an equivalent 130-140 cavalry and rifle divisions.

Total Red Army units for corps/div/bde

76 corps
35 rifle
19 tank
10 cav
2 mech

317 divisions
303 rifle
6 cav
8 mtn

79 brigades
35 tank
15 mech
15 airborne
14 other





M60A3TTS -> RE: Week 78 (2/12/2012 1:53:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

If you feel desperate you may want to try running beyond his supply radius. He can't possibly drop enough fuel/supply to keep all those divisions close to full.


As bad as it is, running away with leg infantry is difficult with panzers and motorized units on your heels. Among his many talents, Pelton is adept at slashing away at the rail lines which provide a quick exit. Also, it is almost 1943 and I've given up all the ground and more than I can afford. If I continue going east much longer, I might be challenged to liberate Moscow by 1944. Probably an exaggeration, but after all this dies down, I'm sure he's got a serious fort line waiting for me to the west.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Fast Forward (2/12/2012 2:09:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
I think you built too many rifle corps and not enough tank corps. 30 odd rifle corps in 1942 is a hefty expense.


The expense was primarily when I used my 500 AP hoard in June to build about 20 guards rifle corps and assigned them primarily to the Volkhov Front. My motivation was to gain as much experience with them as possible and boost up their morale so that by 1944 they would be very potent. Most of the other corps came from necessity. I needed some to slow his attempt to get around Moscow, and later to force him to retreat with selected counterattacks.

I did overestimate how much damage the Volkhov Front could do, with 18 guards rifle corps. Even with good leaders, they really haven't provided the oomph I was looking for. I just converted 38th Army to 1st Guards Army and the 16th Army is close to becoming 2nd Guards Army.

On the question of more tank corps, all of my cav and tank corps are carrying tank attachments, and that may be putting a strain on my motor pool. Latest motor pool #s are 108k/(155k). If I redo my 1941 evacuation plan, it may prioritize truck factories a little more since there is no arms shortage. I lost 50 arms factories in '41 but have been hovering close to a million arms in the pool lately.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Fast Forward (2/12/2012 2:17:19 AM)

If anyone is interested in the subject of the Guards Rocket Launcher Division, I built my first last week along with a standard 1942 artillery division.

The GRLD has 8% of its rockets after one week.
The artillery division got 60% of its artillery, 55% of its heavy artillery and 90% of its heavy mortars during the same one week.

So if those rates continue, the GRLD would need 12 weeks to complete, and meanwhile you could get five or six artillery divisions in the same time. I'll try and remember to track how fast the GRLD takes to fill out.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Week 78 (2/12/2012 2:54:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I think B-G did a few things to keep me limited, because I would really have liked to roam the way Pelton is.

Primarily, B-G had depth to his defenses. His typical structure was only a single Rifle Division up-front, and usually only 1 more in the 2nd row. The strongest units were placed, and dug-in, 3-5 hexes back of the front.

I have noticed M60 that you have alot of double and triple stacks up front. This is not a good idea (it ONLY is if you are defending a river line or something that would make it impregnible). The reason is that German Infantry with Panzer support can move almost ANY stack in clear terrain. What German Infantry has much more trouble with is moving a stack 3 hexes back of the front, after having to fight through 2 units. Once Panzers have to spend 16 MPs blowing through that 3rd hex back of the front, it doesn't leave much for exploitation.

You need to stack less and spread out more. Never have more than 1 unit right at the front. Of course this means that those single units are vulnerable to attack all the time, but the Germans won't push all of them willy-nilly, because the losses would really pile up for the Wehrmacht doing that. Unlike 1941, in 1942 a straight-up fight on a single Rifle unit will typically kill 2 Russians for every German; not a favorable ratio. That is, unless the unit routs.

That's what B-G did, and it was effective. I managed to consistently pocket some units, but never acheived a runaway, and all that fighting meant my losses in summer of 1942 haven't been light.

PS: Rifle Corps are not defensive units, and should not be built until you have the overall initative (or it's at least even). Rifle Divisions are not assault units, but are just fine for defense, as even if they lose, they can inflict losses on the attackers.


Q-Ball, you may be right, but I don't believe you've had an Axis opponent send 25 mobile divisions through a 3-5 hex gap. Whether I front stacked or went three deep, Pelton would have broken through regardless. Your point on the reserves is totally valid. I don't use reserve mode to the extent that I should. But that goes to the question of buying more divisions that can then be put on reserve and adding to defensive depth vs. buying rifle corps, and I am going to definitely reevaluate that part of my strategy.

I have to see what the final answer is to this four PanzerArmee assault strategy. It's terribly unimaginative but terribly effective, and Pelton has the experience to do it well. My reserves can't be everywhere and the tank corps absolutely has to have a matching rifle component to be successful in the attack. I've tested a number of cases where tank corps attacks with a 3-1 or 4-1 superiority in CV or more against a panzer division and the Soviet always loses. We see similar results in other games where exploiting Soviet tank corps get driven back without much difficulty unless supported by a mech corps, cav corps or the like.

It's times like this that I wonder what this game would be like if supply weren't so abstracted. If he had truck units that I could attack by air and get at his supply chain that way, this grand offensive might come to a grinding halt.



76mm -> RE: Fast Forward (2/12/2012 9:01:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
I did overestimate how much damage the Volkhov Front could do, with 18 guards rifle corps. Even with good leaders, they really haven't provided the oomph I was looking for.


How have you been using this front? In my experience, using them against forts without lots of ArtDivs is indeed a frustrating experience.

But if they were in strategic reserve, they would certainly be able to slap around Pelton's panzers in the open. The problem is that one front does not really occupy enough space to be able to protect itself from encirclement.



Ron -> RE: Fast Forward (2/12/2012 2:40:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

A further air recon shows all those unaccounted divisions in the same breakthrough area. [:(]

I don't know that there's an answer for this. Handling 25-30 mobile divisions seems downright impossible. If anyone has any suggestions, now would be a good time to raise them.



TIC - Don't sweat it. That capability for the German will be negated in the next patch so the Soviet Steamroller Story can be properly told.



Q-Ball -> RE: Week 78 (2/12/2012 3:13:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Q-Ball, you may be right, but I don't believe you've had an Axis opponent send 25 mobile divisions through a 3-5 hex gap. Whether I front stacked or went three deep, Pelton would have broken through regardless. Your point on the reserves is totally valid. I don't use reserve mode to the extent that I should. But that goes to the question of buying more divisions that can then be put on reserve and adding to defensive depth vs. buying rifle corps, and I am going to definitely reevaluate that part of my strategy.

I have to see what the final answer is to this four PanzerArmee assault strategy. It's terribly unimaginative but terribly effective, and Pelton has the experience to do it well. My reserves can't be everywhere and the tank corps absolutely has to have a matching rifle component to be successful in the attack. I've tested a number of cases where tank corps attacks with a 3-1 or 4-1 superiority in CV or more against a panzer division and the Soviet always loses. We see similar results in other games where exploiting Soviet tank corps get driven back without much difficulty unless supported by a mech corps, cav corps or the like.


M60, you have a great AAR, and I want to help you defeat mr. Pelton, so maybe I can. Here is my two roubles worth:

I was the German in the game I described against B-G, where he generally contained my Panzers. And I had all but 3 Panzer units within the breakthrough area; so that's probably 25-ish. It's possible to slow it down.

The answer is defense in depth. The fact that Pelton is roaming in your rear is a direct result of your decision to build 18 Guards Rifle Corps and attach them to one front. This was a serious mistake.

You don't need to defend in depth everywhere. The fact is the Germans, while they are very mobile, cannot easily move 25 mobile divisions from one section of the Eastern Front to the other. Once he is committed to an attack, you can go ahead and thin-out any sector of the front that isn't within 20-ish hexes of those Panzers. Because it won't get attacked.

This will allow you to swamp the area where the Panzers are with something like 150-200 Rifle Divisions. Placed in depth, this defense will seriously bend, but not break. Pelton would be able to gobble-up a few divisions a turn in pockets without a problem, but that's it. And lots of counterattacks will make him stack his Panzers in the open. I bet you haven't whacked too many of his Panzer units, because he wouldn't drive them around in the open if you had.

Stop stacking up front. Defense in depth. Pull units from other sectors of the front. Feel OK with surrendering territory. Make sure you counterattack, or at least put a body on, every Panzer unit in the open. You have to feel comfortable that single Rifle units in the open will get pushed, but they will inflict losses at a rate that ultimately the Germans can't sustain.



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