Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (Full Version)

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mc3744 -> Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 10:26:52 AM)

PBEM, scenario 1, I'm the Allies [:)]

Around March '42 Japan was invading PM, as expected the amphibious TF was escorted by a KB. I spotted no enemy escort TF.
Hence I decide to send a TF made up of all my available CA and CL to try and score some hits on the CVs.
I set surface combat, retire on, reaction to 6, max speed 9, cruise speed 4. Best commanders I could find.
They set sail from Townsville, day 1 they stop 9 hexes from PM. Day 2 they don't engage at night and they are three hexes away in the morning, dead in the water, I lost one CA and several other damaged by air attacks!?! [:@]

June '42 (present day). Japan is evacuating forces from Buna after failing to protect PM. A transport TF is escorted by a KB since I have Horn Island fully developed and fighters at Terapo.
Once again I try to intercept the KB with a fast cruisers TF.
Day one they arrive at 9 hexes from Buna, undetected. Day 2: I find them one hex from Buna during daytime!?!?! [X(]
I was lucky 'cause my opponent had CAP 100% and no naval attack to avoid (I presume) being shredded to pieces [:D] by my fighters in Terapo.
But why won't my cruisers TF ever engage the KB?!?!? [&:]

I've had lots of other engagements with the same settings against enemy convoys or combat TF. But I just can't get to engage a static KB.

WHY?

Thanks guys [:)]



Puhis -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 10:50:23 AM)

TF movement have some randomness, I think. Also, the routine is not very reliable. And what is threat tolerance level of your TF? Surface ships tend to avoid air threat, unless set to ignore it.

But I have to ask, why are you trying to engage Japan's strongest naval force with some lousy cruisers? That's suicide, mate... You really need carriers vs. KB...



mc3744 -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 10:58:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

TF movement have some randomness, I think. Also, the routine is not very reliable. And what is threat tolerance level of your TF? Surface ships tend to avoid air threat, unless set to ignore it.

But I have to ask, why are you trying to engage Japan's strongest naval force with some lousy cruisers? That's suicide, mate... You really need carriers vs. KB...



I left the threat tolerance to normal. It usually works fine, even against enemy BBs.

Why suicide? A 15 ships TF made up of CA, CL and DD engaging a CV TF in surface combat at night should be able to do some damage.
Heavy cruisers should be able to hurt carriers, should they not? [&:]
My crews experience by now is quite good, ranging from 50 to 65 at night.
And by morning they should be 9 hexes away and even if they are not out of range they should have done some damage at night.

I've read on several AAR that CV TF are at a disadvantage during surface encounters. Did I get it wrong?

Thanks for the feedback [:)]



Puhis -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 11:10:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mc3744


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

TF movement have some randomness, I think. Also, the routine is not very reliable. And what is threat tolerance level of your TF? Surface ships tend to avoid air threat, unless set to ignore it.

But I have to ask, why are you trying to engage Japan's strongest naval force with some lousy cruisers? That's suicide, mate... You really need carriers vs. KB...



I left the threat tolerance to normal. It usually works fine, even against enemy BBs.


BBs don't have dive bombers and torpedo bombers... [;)]

quote:


Why suicide? A 15 ships TF made up of CA, CL and DD engaging a CV TF in surface combat at night should be able to do some damage.
Heavy cruisers should be able to hurt carriers, should they not? [&:]
My crews experience by now is quite good, ranging from 50 to 65 at night.
And by morning they should be 9 hexes away and even if they are not out of range they should have done some damage at night.


Yes, in theory and AFB dreams maybe... [:)] But you're examples vere not like that, right?

BTW, how do you even know exactly where KB is? Is it just sitting in one hex?



mc3744 -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 11:18:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

BTW, how do you even know exactly where KB is? Is it just sitting in one hex?



Yes, it was/is escorting an evacuation convoy loading troops in Buna (they hiked all the way from PM to escape my bombing).
Since the port is small and the troops many it's taking a while. And he can't move the KB away or my bombers at Horn would sink the transport convoy.
PM and Lae's airfields are in ruins hence his only option is naval air support.
In fact I set Buna as destination and the KB was still there in the morning and my TF in the adjacent hex [:@]
if he had is TB and DB on naval attack I would have lost an awful lot of cruisers for nothing!

I still think that in surface combat a heavy cruisers TF should be more than a match for a KB, if only they would engage!



LoBaron -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 11:23:21 AM)

Puhis is right.

Without setting the treat tolerance to 'absolute' your chance of intercepting CVs is next to
nil.



Puhis -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 11:25:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mc3744


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

BTW, how do you even know exactly where KB is? Is it just sitting in one hex?



In fact I set Buna as destination and the KB was still there in the morning and my TF in the adjacent hex [:@]
if he had is TB and DB on naval attack I would have lost an awful lot of cruisers for nothing!



Like I said, movement routine is not very reliable. You might end up one or two hex short. Also you should try direct threat tolerance. If threat tolerance is normal, surface combat TF usually avoids carriers.

Carriers at base hex is really bad idea, BTW... (Don't tell your opponent)



mc3744 -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 11:26:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Puhis is right.

Without setting the treat tolerance to 'absolute' your chance of intercepting CVs is next to
nil.


Ok, thanks [:)], got it.

Do you think too that it would be suicide to engage a medium KB (the enemy CVs are split in at least two groups) with 4 CA + 4 CL (the big US ones) and DDs?
There could be a BB with them, my intel is not too clear.



mc3744 -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 11:27:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Carriers at base hex is really bad idea, BTW... (Don't tell your opponent)


I agree [:D]



Alfred -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 11:31:06 AM)

mc3744,

You haven't provided sufficient accurate data for a precise solution to your problem, but in general terms, I don't think you quite understand what is required for an interception to occur. Have a look at this thread and Don Bowen's posts.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2715359&mpage=1&key=surface%2Cintercept�

Basically you are doing quite a few things wrong.

1. You are not using the "patrol" setting

2. You seem to be using "maximum" speed which is not a very good choice to achieve the outcome you want

3. You don't seem to have a high detection level on the KB. Seeing fighters from the KB providing LRCAP over the enemy transports does not in itself generate high detection level

You are fixated on intercepting the KB. If you were doing things right you should at least intercept the evacuating Transport TF. Instead you are simply wasting fuel which strongly indicates you have it wrong.

If possible, please put up screenshots of the map and your TF screen orders.

Alfred



Puhis -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 11:33:18 AM)

I theory cruisers can do lot of damage... But if movement fails, or night combat fails, it's more or less suicidal. I think surface engaments use ships op points, so ships might not get far after engament... Certainly not 9 hexes.



mc3744 -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 11:41:24 AM)

No I'm not using "patrol". But if I don't want to stay in the hex, isn't surface TF with destination and retire on good enough. I only want to stay the night [;)]
I'm not going full speed, I'm going mission speed and I've used it against other TFs and it always worked.

I'm not "fixated" on the KB and wouldn't mind hitting the convoy too. But I consider carriers a bigger prize than transport ships, but that's just me [:)]

The KB is not providing LRCAP, the KB is IN the hex and I've been spotting it for 3 turns from 4 hexes away with patrols, 9 hexes away with patrols and recon on the base hex.
I'm 100% sure it's a KB, I'm 100% sure there's a transport convoy. I'm not 100% sure on the KB TF composition.

Thanks for the link [:)], I'll check it out.

Yes, combat uses up op points. But I'm guessing he'd move away from my nearby LBA and I'd be under LRCAP. Then again it might be just suicide, I won't know till I manage to engage [;)]

No, I'm not posting the screenshot: loose lips sink ships [:D]



undercovergeek -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 12:06:51 PM)

umm you do know the KB isnt just a TF of CVs dont you?



mc3744 -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 12:10:14 PM)

I do thanks [;)]

Just wondering how to attack them.
The damage I make or suffer I'll figure out.



Alfred -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 12:22:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mc3744

No I'm not using "patrol". But if I don't want to stay in the hex, isn't surface TF with destination and retire on good enough. I only want to stay the night [;)]
I'm not going full speed, I'm going mission speed and I've used it against other TFs and it always worked.

I'm not "fixated" on the KB and wouldn't mind hitting the convoy too. But I consider carriers a bigger prize than transport ships, but that's just me [:)]

The KB is not providing LRCAP, the KB is IN the hex and I've been spotting it for 3 turns from 4 hexes away with patrols, 9 hexes away with patrols and recon on the base hex.
I'm 100% sure it's a KB, I'm 100% sure there's a transport convoy. I'm not 100% sure on the KB TF composition.

Thanks for the link [:)], I'll check it out.

Yes, combat uses up op points. But I'm guessing he'd move away from my nearby LBA and I'd be under LRCAP. Then again it might be just suicide, I won't know till I manage to engage [;)]

No, I'm not posting the screenshot: loose lips sink ships [:D]


And none of that necessarily = a high detection level. Read s.10 of the manual for how detection works.

Wanting to immediately retire is not good enough. When are you arriving? Answer is probably at night. Is there a moon out to aid in visual detection? Do your cruisers have floatplanes conducting night searches? Read the section in the manual to see how limited your detection level will probably be until the day searches begin after the night phase, when your cruisers have already left the area.

Then there is the question of your leader ratings. Plus as indicated you are trying to operate in an area where the enemy has air superiority. Very difficult to get a TF to carry out a successful mission under those circumstances.

If the KB is not providing LRCAP, then why aren't you targetting the enemy Trasnport TF with your airforce. No KB LRCAP means only leakers will provide very limited protection to the transports plus, being located at a base hex, the KB's starting CAP is reduced considerably to begin with.

Finally, even if you do change the parameters and do get an intercept, IIRC, Don Bower said that the algorithm very much favours aiding a CV TF to successfully run away from a Surface TF intercept.

Alfred



HansBolter -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 12:31:16 PM)

I'll offer a voice of support to counter the JFB naysayers who only want to belittle you for even trying. It's good to think outside the box and try things that 'conventional wisdom' says you shouldn't. [:)]

While any attempt to get at a carrier force with a surface action group will be fraught with dire consequences for failure, the potential gain inherent with success may sometimes make it worth the gamble.

The only time that "sometimes" becomes a viable option is when the carrier force demonstrates a prediliction for hanging around in one hex. This is what makes an at sea interception even remotely viable. It appears this is what was happening in your game.

The way you are describing things it seems that your SAG is setting up for a high speed run of maximum distance on the final leg. This occurs when your either send a SAG to bombard an enemy base with a bombardment mission or send it on a surface combat mission to an enemy base (it will automatically make the last leg a high speed run of max distance even with "mission" speed set.

I'm not sure why your last leg keeps coming up short on movement distance. There could be several causes. Threat tloerance has already been mentioned. Suffering engine damage enroute that slowed your TF to 8 maximum movement just before teh last leg is another. The randomness of movement mentioned above usually apples to the slower movement speed where you arer not sure if your TF will move 2 or 3 or 4 hexes. I have never seen movement randomness affect full speed, but that doesn't mean it can't.

If you have the chance, instead of letting the TF control it's own movement from port to intercept, you might try moving it to a spot 8, or 7 or hexes from the target with a remain on station order. Then when it gets there give it a new order for the intercept so you aren't relying on a high speed maximum run for the intercept. This, of course, presupposes that you can safely get to a spot closer than 9 hexes away.

Also be aware that as some one else mentioned above, the night fight will use up Ops points and you won't get as far away the next morning as you may have hoped for. Keep trying, and don't give up. At least your opponent will think twice about letting his carriers sit in one spot as a juicy target.



Itdepends -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 1:02:38 PM)

I'd recommend using the patrol function as well for intercepts- set the first waypoint where you want them to go and the second one at a sweep point (or retirement point) and the third as a retirement point that you can pick them up from next turn (or a few later). React tends to work better when a combat TF is on patrol.



mc3744 -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 3:07:35 PM)

A few comments on the above comments, for which I thank you all [:)] Naysayers included [:D]

I know about LRCAP, halved effect in hex base, range, altitude, extended range, detection levels, ... I've started with Uncommon Valor, moved on to Witp and now here I am [;)]
My question was about the night engagement. If I deemed another form of attack on the KB doable I would have tried it. I'm sure someone better would have found it, I didn't. [8|]

The KB (or probably mini-KB) is stationary, it's been in the same hex for four turns now and it's still there in Buna. However it is now too late to try again as a second one has come hovering around. That definitely makes it for a suicidal run.
Since Terapo is still size one I have no projection capability from there.
Horn Island is too far out, bombers would reach Buna but unescorted it would be a massacre. And PM, while completely wrecked, is still in Japanese hands (not for long [;)]).
I knew where at least 7 BBs were (elsewhere) and I wanted to try out a night battle and watch the results.
I appreciate your general concern over the action, I still think that if they attacked it might have been interesting. I had the best ship commander available in June '42, decent night experience and newly upgraded ships (radar, AA, ...).
He will not come close again once Terapo expands as he knows I have plenty of DBs in the area.

I do have to learn how to use the patrol option, its new to AE and I'm not familiar with it. Thanks for the input on how to use it I'll try to put it to good use.

Now I'm waiting for the 28 knots BBs and I'll give it another try if the opportunity presents. [:)]



mdiehl -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 4:56:05 PM)

HansBolter: yours was as good an answer as they get. Kudos.



mike scholl 1 -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 5:26:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

HansBolter: yours was as good an answer as they get. Kudos.


True. I rarely agree with Hans, but he hit that nail right on the head.



mc3744 -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 5:27:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

HansBolter: yours was as good an answer as they get. Kudos.


True. I rarely agree with Hans, but he hit that nail right on the head.


Just in case it wasn't clear ... I agree too [:)]



Lecivius -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 7:33:42 PM)

I would still advise against it.  I did manage to intercept KB with a scratch cruiser force.  The 6" & 8" shells just bounce off the carriers [sm=00000003.gif]



Erkki -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 7:47:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

I would still advise against it.  I did manage to intercept KB with a scratch cruiser force.  The 6" & 8" shells just bounce off the carriers [sm=00000003.gif]


Indeed.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Mar 08, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Little Andaman at 41,57, Range 5,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CA Kinugasa, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Kako
CL Natori
CL Yura
DD Arashio, Shell hits 1
DD Suzukaze
DD Shinonome
DD Satsuki
DD Minazuki

Allied Ships
CV Indomitable, Shell hits 1
BB Royal Sovereign
CA Dorsetshire
DD Griffin, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Norman, Shell hits 1, on fire



Reduced visibility due to Rain with 64% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Rain and 64% moonlight: 6,000 yards
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
Range closes to 13,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
Range closes to 5,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards

What I thought was a strong SCTF that surprised Indomitable TF (Royal Sovereign was hit by Netty torpedoes the day before and was still on fire in the combat replay): all but one bouncing shot missed, Kinugasa lost to 2 torps and "Allied TF manages to escape" at 2,000 yard range. [:(]



Puhis -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 8:04:21 PM)

Most of the early IJN carriers have rather strong belt armor, except Soryu, Hiryu and CVLs. Kaga and Akagi are very strong, they have better armor than Kongo-class battleships...



mc3744 -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/4/2011 11:09:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Most of the early IJN carriers have rather strong belt armor, except Soryu, Hiryu and CVLs. Kaga and Akagi are very strong, they have better armor than Kongo-class battleships...



I never noticed that!

Good advice [&o]

Ok, I think I got the message: DO NOT SINK JAP CV WITH SURFACE COMBAT TF! [:-]
I will comply with the knowledgeable forum advice. No more suicide runs [:)]



HansBolter -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/5/2011 12:05:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mc3744


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Most of the early IJN carriers have rather strong belt armor, except Soryu, Hiryu and CVLs. Kaga and Akagi are very strong, they have better armor than Kongo-class battleships...



I never noticed that!

Good advice [&o]

Ok, I think I got the message: DO NOT SINK JAP CV WITH SURFACE COMBAT TF! [:-]
I will comply with the knowledgeable forum advice. No more suicide runs [:)]


The Kaga and Akagi were converted from cruiser hulls IIRC, just as the Lexington and Saratoga. Don't let these guys misle you though, they all can be penetrated. I've had a field day on the KB at Pearl on the night impulse of turn 2 with nothing more than destroyers. 5" shells WILL penetrate thieir flight decks and set fires to thier superstructures.

I've seen the same in at least one AAR here.




Puhis -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/5/2011 6:30:13 AM)

Akagi was converted from battlecruiser hull. Japan also planned to convert sister ship Amagi, but that hull was badly damaged in earthquake in 1923. So they decided to convert battleship hull Kaga instead. Kaga wasn't ideal for carrier because it was slower than battlecruisers, but they managed to get the speed to 28 knots.

These ships are tough, a few lucky shell hits won't do much. But big guns or torpedoes can severly damage them...



mike scholl 1 -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/5/2011 1:25:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Akagi was converted from battlecruiser hull. Japan also planned to convert sister ship Amagi, but that hull was badly damaged in earthquake in 1923. So they decided to convert battleship hull Kaga instead. Kaga wasn't ideal for carrier because it was slower than battlecruisers, but they managed to get the speed to 28 knots.

These ships are tough, a few lucky shell hits won't do much. But big guns or torpedoes can severly damage them...




Not necessicarally. While waterline penetration would require a major calibre shell, the A/C handling areas above were vulnerable..., and considering Japanese fuel handling and damage control, worthwhile targets. Start a few fires and you could well sink one of these ships without ever penetrating the belt armor.



mc3744 -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/13/2011 5:28:24 PM)

Ok, I tried intercepting enemy TFs (in known locations) using the patrol command instead of just setting the destination with retire on.

The important difference I found is that with the patrol command (on 0 days delay) my TF will still be there in the morning, therefore exposed to whatever air threats are in the area.
How do you get it in at night at out (as much as op points will allow) in the morning with the patrol command?



Itdepends -> RE: Why won't my STF engage the KB??! (10/14/2011 11:59:38 AM)

Full speed, first way point at your intercept point and the second way point a looooong way away. They may still be there in the morning though if they react towards the enemy or get in a surface engagement. (No op points left to run away if they get caught in a gun battle).

EDIT- just to clarify your second waypoint doesn't need to be a long way away- just where you want your ships to retire to, helps if it's far enough away that they don't go back to the 1st waypoint again but you can set shorter retirement patrol points using the pause x days at this point in the patrol set screen.



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