RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (Full Version)

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terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/14/2011 4:56:17 PM)

Turn 95

Overall
There is nothing to be gained by trying to push onto Moscow, that just is not possible during mud, and by the time the ground is once more clear, the pocket will have been eliminated. So I chose not to attack, since it serves no purpose. Instead I continue to shorthen the front. The question now is wether to abandon those hills NW of Moscow or not. Abandoning them should shorten the front by some 10 hexes, but it is also a very good defensive position. For now I decided I want those hills.
The Axis launched 6 attacks this turn, scoring 1 held, 1 retreat and 4 surrenders, and also broadening the gap between my forces and Moscow. Sadly they also managed to rout the airfield I had in the city, so now there is nothing to do but look at the list of units that will eventually be lost.

Units
The destruction of the Moscow pocket has begun, this turn we lost 2 rifle corps, 6 rifle divisions, 1 cavalry division, 2 rifle brigades and 1 AT artillery brigade. I ordered the formation of 5 new infantry corps this turn.
With rather heavy losses on our side, a net strength growth of 93.000 is acceptable.

Partisans
10 sabotage actions and 21 supply drops this turn. I had hoped for more sabotage actions, but beggars cannot be picky, so I'll take the result, smile and say thank you to my partisans. The Axis forced 7 units to retreat this turn, leaving us with 21 active units at the end of the turn.

Operation Common Sense
Since Moscow is now written off, the forces available will be placed on the defence for the time being.

Worries
What comes next?




[image]local://upfiles/11504/D3C559187EDD45AFAABBDA591FD832A0.jpg[/image]



Seminole -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/14/2011 8:13:39 PM)

The question now is wether to abandon those hills NW of Moscow or not. Abandoning them should shorten the front by some 10 hexes, but it is also a very good defensive position. For now I decided I want those hills.

If I was the Axis I would hope that you gave away defensible terrain hexes and shortened the line.  As the Soviet, I can't think of why you'd do either except to extricate forces from an impending pocket.



terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/14/2011 9:13:26 PM)

The answer to that is quite simple.
A shorter front means fewer hexes to "guard", which means a better defence for the remaining hexes.
It might just be me being too scared of the German panzer and mechanized units, but a frontline held by 1 corps per hex all along the line seems scary.


Terje



terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/14/2011 9:47:02 PM)

Turn 96

Overall
Nothing really happens, and with the low low low attack CV during mud, I order no attacks, but do allow our airforce to fly as many sorties as possible. The Axis launch 3 attacks, scoring 2 held and 1 surrender this turn.
With so few attacks happening, losses are really low, espesially for the Axis. Reports claim AAxis losses to be merely 1.000, while we still lose 83.000 soldiers this turn.
I am still contemplating withdrawal, but I would hate to give up those hills, but I am really scared when looking at the frontline. Any more than a Rumanian brigade, and I fear my front might collapse. Really not satisfied with how things are at the moment.

Units
I create 5 rifle corps this turn, still alot of conversion needed, but at the same time I also need more command points to do so. I would also like to create more units, but that is not doable for now.
This turn we lost 1 rifle corps and 2 Guards rocket launcher divisions in the Moscow pocket.
Our remaining units however report a net growth of some 108.000 soldiers this turn, that is a good number, espesially with our manpower recruitment taking a dive.

Partisans
7 sabotague actions and 14 supply drops is only what I consider "ok". I would like to see the number of sabotague missions in the double digits. With 7 units forced to retreat by Axis attacks this turn, we still have 20 active units on the map.

Worries
I need more units, but those cost CP, I need to combine more units, but that cost CP...So much I need to do and so few CP to do it with.




[image]local://upfiles/11504/2234308DDB4549E99708C621A5DF84AA.jpg[/image]



Baelfiin -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/14/2011 10:45:31 PM)

He is going to start losing italians and most of those nasty ss panzers in july...

I think shortening the line will be doing him a favor Thats a lot of really nice defensive terrain to give up, not to mention whatever forts that yuou have allready dug.



Flaviusx -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/14/2011 10:50:44 PM)

I don't think you need to shorten the line either. The Axis tide is cresting. Patience. He caught you with your pants down and an obsolete force structure, but now that you've got the corps machine going full time, it's going to get harder and harder for him. And your morale is on the upswing now.



terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/14/2011 11:32:22 PM)

Ok thank you Baelfin, Flaviusx and Seminole [:)]
I will let the line remain.

But how worried should I be by the fact that my line is held by 1 corps in most hexes? That seems awfully light to me, but that might just be my inexperience I guess.
Also, should ALL corps sized units have 3 support units attached at all times, or just when used on the offensive? I take it engineers/sappers will help with the digging in as well as blasting through enemy forts?


Terje



Flaviusx -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/14/2011 11:33:44 PM)

1 corps = 3 rifle divisions + 3 SUs. Yes, put sappers in them.

So yeah.

If the panzers are massed somewhere, then add to this, to be sure. But even a single rifle corps, well dug in, will inflict pain. Two rifle corps dug in will withstand most attacks. Three rifle corps...mostly cannot be shifted, period.








M60A3TTS -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/14/2011 11:48:20 PM)

Start deploying the rifle corps en masse.  If you aren't planning on advancing, get these scattered corps off line and replace them with divisions.  Otherwise, you virtually flush these APs down the drain.  Same goes for the artillery units, tank and cav corps.  You must bury the Axis under a mountain of men and steel.    



juret -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/15/2011 11:37:25 AM)

nice januari-februari offensive by axis.

i think he will move all high ap units to south and strike deep in summer.

be sure have reserves down there



terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/15/2011 12:04:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Start deploying the rifle corps en masse.  If you aren't planning on advancing, get these scattered corps off line and replace them with divisions.  Otherwise, you virtually flush these APs down the drain.  Same goes for the artillery units, tank and cav corps.  You must bury the Axis under a mountain of men and steel.    


Define en masse;
At the moment, I have one corps in each hex in most areas save the northern regions (decided to focus on getting corps in the south and up to Moscow). But still, I do not feel I have enough to deploy corps en masse, merely one corps per hex. At the moment there are no reserves, the front is too long, and I have lost too many units to have "spare" corps.


Terje



terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/15/2011 12:07:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juret

nice januari-februari offensive by axis.

i think he will move all high ap units to south and strike deep in summer.

be sure have reserves down there



Indeed, and poorly played by me [:)]
Well, south does posess some high value areas, but at the same time he will have to cross a mojor river attacking rifle corps in level 3 forts. I am more scared for a concentrated effort in the Moscow area where he breaks through and rolls up parts of the frontline. But I will attempt to dig out some reserves somehow. What I need now, is a prolonged period of mud...


Terje



terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/15/2011 1:14:53 PM)

Turn 97

Overall
The Axis make one deliberate attack into Moscow, and are repelled. In that attack they lost 1000 men and 50 tanks, while we lost 1900 men. I will gladly take such tradeoffs! My only attacks was the bombing of German units along the front, hitting one of the panzer divisions around Moscow rather hard, inflicting about 2.000 casualties on it. Sadly only two tanks were destroyed by this. I am also feeling the loss of population points, as the manpower pool only recieves a total of 189.000 workers this turn ending the pool at 2.
In the end, losses are reported as 29.000 on the Axis side, and 86.000 on our side.
I also take a look at the TOE of my rifle units. I am not too displeased with what I find.

Units
No losses this turn, instead the defenders in Moscow beat off a deliberate Axis attack, destroying some 50 panzers. I order the formation of 5 rifle corps, 4 heavy AT regiments and 3 MG-artillery battalions this turn. I am also back on Stalins Xmas list, as I recieve a new airfield this turn.
Our forces grew by 97.000 soldiers.

Partisans
14 sabotage actions and 17 drops is a good result, if they could keep this up I would be very happy. The Axis force 5 units to retreat, which means we end up with 23 active units at the end of the turn.

Worries
I need some more time...

Unit count
Our forces at the moment are as follows;
16 tank corps
24 tank brigades
2 mechanized corps
3 mechanized brigades
3 airborne divisions
4 airborne brigades
11 cavalry corps
10 cavalry divisions
8 artillery divisions
1 Rocket launcher division
6 artillery brigades
4 AT brigades
2 AA brigades
10 mountain divisions
152 rifle divisions
34 rifle brigades
102 rifle corps

Of these, 3 mountain divisions, 1 rifle division and 1 cavalry division are frozen at the Turkish border, and 13 rifle divisions, 5 rifle corps, 2 tank corps, 1 cavalry corps, 1 AT brigade, 1 artillery division, 1 Rocket launcher division and 1 rifle brigade are isolated in the Moscow pocket.

This leaves a total of 123 corps, 157 divisions, 7 artillery divisions, 64 brigades, 6 artillery brigades, 2 AA brigades and 4 AT brigades available to cover the front.

Frontline length
The front is currently 128 hexes long.

Unit oer hex ratio
That means I should be able to cover each hex with 1 corps and 1 division, every second hex will also have a brigade. This will leave me with a spare of 29 divisions to plug any holes in the front....




[image]local://upfiles/11504/31E5D73FE8C04E2D977A69937F0548AF.jpg[/image]



Flaviusx -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/15/2011 1:35:09 PM)

You do not need to put a corps on every hex of the front; practice economy of force measures up north in particular. Single divisions, hell single brigades are enough to deal with the Finns. Where are they going to go up there? You have far too much up there for merely static defense. Thin it out. (So many players seem to overcommit up here after Leningrad falls instead of stripping it to the bone. It's a sideshow.)

You need more mobile corps. Lots more. I try to get around 24 tank corps and maybe a dozen mech corps. You have enough tank brigades to form another 8 tank corps -- do this, tank brigades are fairly useless. That will bring you up to the magic number of 24.

The mech corps are going to come more slowly, alas, since you don't have many brigades. During 1942, I build 3 motorized brigades each turn as early as possible, until I get 36 of them and let them train up. You could possibly get away with less than this, maybe a half dozen mech corps or so, they are definitely truck hogs. With 30 odd tank/mech corps, you're in good position to respond to the German panzers with counterattacks and break up their attempts to pocket and isolate things. It's not just about static defense with rifle corps.




terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/15/2011 1:43:14 PM)

The north (from just west of Moscow and all the way up) is where most of my divisions are located, I think I only have 4 or 5 rifle corps there at the moment.

The question then arises, what is more valuable, making one tank corps or two rifle corps (since tank corps cost 20 to create)? I take it from your statement that I need mobile units, that I should build those tank corps first?

So just to make sure, what I should do in terms of spending my precious points are;
1. Build that mech corps from those brigades
2. Build those tank corps
3. Build more mech brigades and transform them into corps
4. Build more rifle corps

Again, thank you for your input [&o]

Terje



Flaviusx -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/15/2011 1:48:50 PM)

You need both. You're going to have to mix and match here. With 160 APs you can consider your tank corps creating done. Build one a turn for 8 turns, I guess.



Baelfiin -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/15/2011 1:50:11 PM)

Off topic here but I am desperate:

Do you guys know when (if) rifle corps become 10 points instead of 20? And are tank and mech corps always 20 or do they get a price reduction at some point as well?

Thanks!!



Flaviusx -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/15/2011 1:51:40 PM)

Jan 1 1943, Baelfinn for 10 AP rifle corps. So stockpile in advance of that happy date. Mobile corps are always 20 APs to build.





Baelfiin -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/15/2011 1:55:36 PM)

Thanks Flavius

I can now stop tearing out what little hair I have left !



Q-Ball -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/15/2011 5:07:20 PM)

How many Tank Regiment SU's does everyone build?

In my game vs. Tarhunnas, I went pretty crazy on Tank SUs.

On the plus side, they are very very cheap firepower (cheap because you already build tanks, so there is almost zero armament costs), and they don't use much Manpower. They also include some SMG squads.

(This assumes you have plenty of tanks in AFV pool, but Soviets should have more than enough)

On the minus, it does use trucks. And there are only so many SU slots attached to Corps.

I personally like to attach at least 1 Tank SU to each Cav Corps, 1 or 2 to each Army, and maybe 1 to a Tank Corps (just to make it bigger).

How many and how do you use Tank SUs?



Flaviusx -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/15/2011 5:11:29 PM)

Q-ball, I personally don't like attaching tank regiments to all my rifle corps, but this is a matter of taste. The amount of trucks involved becomes significant. A few guards rifle corps maybe, but when you're running around with 100+ rifle corps, that's a lot of trucks. Especially since this doesn't include all the regiments attached to mobile corps, which is another 60+ regiments. (2 tank regiments per cav, 1 per mech or tank.)

I rely on AT regiments for this kind of thing.

I do like them as army SUs though, 1 per army.



Q-Ball -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/15/2011 5:19:56 PM)

I like the Heavy Tank SU's later on in late '42 to '43, as they get that guards morale boost right on creation. Takes awhile to realize all the benefits, but I think those will have a NM of 60 + 10 + 10 = 80 in mid 1944.

Fill that with Stalin tanks, and that's a pretty nasty SU.

I didn't use any AT SUs before, as I was concerned about Armament expenditure, but it looks like they are affordable, and a good "defensive" solution. At least they don't use as many Trucks.

What about the Light Assault Gun SUs? At full production, massive amounts of SU-76Ms will pile-up in the pool, way more than it looks like are needed in Corps TOE's. Are they worth building? Or just let them rot in the pool?



Flaviusx -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/15/2011 5:32:05 PM)

I'm wary of making too many SU 76 SUs (geeze that's a redundant phrase.) They are organic to a lot of units, for starters. (Including late war guards rifle corps!) And they just add to the whole truck problem.

The heavy tank regiment idea is worth exploring for assault rifle corps. Mobile corps don't much use them, they rely primarily on medium tanks and various flavors of SUs (76, 122, 152.) So you can concentrate their production on SUs and attach them to specific shock units. (Maybe even including some mech corps.)




Q-Ball -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/15/2011 5:46:38 PM)

We should probably start a new thread on late-war Soviet Tank Management!

SUs:

Looking at the TOE's, the Mobile units use about equal numbers of SU-76, SU-85, and SU-152. But the SU-76 has almost quadruple the production of the other two (over 120 per turn at full capacity). You are right, that Guards Rifle Corps pick up 40-ish in their TOE

So, Soviet players in late war figure to have thousands of SU-76 in the pool. Is it worth trying to use them? The combat capability is lower than other choices in that slot, and they consume trucks. So I suppose it's your last option.

They probably die in droves in combat as well, so maybe the extra production is consumed anyway just to keep pace.

Heavy Tanks:

There are NO Stalin tanks that I can see in any on-map TOEs. So they are all in Heavy Tank SUs.

After Feb 1944, peak production will ramp up to 54 in Fall of 1944. That is enough to sustain LOTS in combat.

I will probably create a bunch in late 42-43, and stash them to train-up. There figure to be plenty of KVs in the pool to get them started, while Stalin production increases. Once that happens, deploy them in numbers.






Schmart -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/15/2011 5:56:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

How many Tank Regiment SU's does everyone build?


I think historically, the Russians fielded a max of around 100 independent (ie: not integral to Tank/Mech/Cav Corps) Tank Regiments, plus I think 20-25 independent Heavy Tank Regiments. By late 1943, many of these were converted to SU Regiments, and by the end of the war, there weren't a whole lot of independent Tank Regiments around.

You can start building them early as Tank Battalions will upgrade to Tank Regiments in late 1942.



terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/15/2011 5:57:51 PM)

Let me throw in a Q as well;

what units can use the arty units created at HQs? I cannot seem to attach them to rifle, tank and cav corps??

(oh, and since this is a noobie AAR, feel free to post any Q as long as the experienced players feel like answering in here[:)])


Terje



BletchleyGeek -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/15/2011 6:01:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439

Let me throw in a Q as well;

what units can use the arty units created at HQs? I cannot seem to attach them to rifle, tank and cav corps??


Only HQ and Fortified Zone units, Terje.

quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439
(oh, and since this is a noobie AAR, feel free to post any Q as long as the experienced players feel like answering in here[:)])


Keep them coming :)




terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/15/2011 7:12:22 PM)

That forced a follow-up question [:)]
Does that mean, if I stack a HQ with some arty units, that that HQ can provide arty fire from two hexes away in a deliberate attack like normal arty?


Terje



BletchleyGeek -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/15/2011 7:21:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439
That forced a follow-up question [:)]
Does that mean, if I stack a HQ with some arty units, that that HQ can provide arty fire from two hexes away in a deliberate attack like normal arty?


No, this isn't TOAW mate [:)]

When SU's are attached to a HQ then the chance-based Support Unit commitment rules apply. You should check section 15.4.1 (page 143 on the ammended manual) :)



terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (12/16/2011 8:42:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek


quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439
That forced a follow-up question [:)]
Does that mean, if I stack a HQ with some arty units, that that HQ can provide arty fire from two hexes away in a deliberate attack like normal arty?


No, this isn't TOAW mate [:)]

When SU's are attached to a HQ then the chance-based Support Unit commitment rules apply. You should check section 15.4.1 (page 143 on the ammended manual) :)



Kinda what I guessed, but wanted to be sure I did not waste alot of arty tubes here [:D]

Terje



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