RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (Full Version)

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Seminole -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (1/31/2012 2:52:24 PM)

quote:

They are 8 MP units


Check 14.1.1-2 in the manual.
You have a leadership/supply issue (overloaded HQs too?) that is reducing the MP allotted.  Corps can have as many as 16 MP with good supply and a decent leader.
Disbanding Guards rifle corps is madness.




Q-Ball -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (1/31/2012 5:51:17 PM)

I would have to really think twice about disbanding Corps. Once you disband, you can't get them back.

I can see possibly that, as the line gets shorter, it might be a good idea; the Russians need to try to keep Rifle Corps close to 100% TOE. That's more useful than a bunch at 60% TOE.

You need some extras to rotate through the line; best way to keep them up to strength is to rotate them back periodically on REFIT to collect replacements.

I also wonder if you couldn't thin out the line elsewhere. After 1943, you barely need to defend as Soviets; what are the Germans going to do, advance? You can leave whole sectors undefended, the Germans aren't going anywhere....




gingerbread -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (1/31/2012 6:08:32 PM)

Better to merge than to disband. Probably have to break down the Corps before merging the components to other units.




terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (1/31/2012 6:54:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

They are 8 MP units


Check 14.1.1-2 in the manual.
You have a leadership/supply issue (overloaded HQs too?) that is reducing the MP allotted.  Corps can have as many as 16 MP with good supply and a decent leader.
Disbanding Guards rifle corps is madness.



The units in question was within supply range, so that should not be the major issue with them, but they did have low morale, and pretty much every front is overloaded.
The rifle corps was probably the one that was out of supply as it jumped to 14 MP when it moved a fex hexes back, and hence survived the purge.

Terje




terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (1/31/2012 7:00:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

1. I would have to really think twice about disbanding Corps. Once you disband, you can't get them back.

2. I can see possibly that, as the line gets shorter, it might be a good idea; the Russians need to try to keep Rifle Corps close to 100% TOE. That's more useful than a bunch at 60% TOE.

3. You need some extras to rotate through the line; best way to keep them up to strength is to rotate them back periodically on REFIT to collect replacements.

4. I also wonder if you couldn't thin out the line elsewhere. After 1943, you barely need to defend as Soviets; what are the Germans going to do, advance? You can leave whole sectors undefended, the Germans aren't going anywhere....


1. Oh, I thought about it for several turns, but #2 on your list "won" the argument about some of the corps.

2. And there is the problem I faced, I was getting below 100k reinforcements per turn there for a while, and I estimate my corps are from 50-90% in terms of TOE, I needed more men to the fighting units.

3. Apart from my armored and mechanized corps, most corps will recieve a few turns rest every now and then, it is not the TOE that makes me do this, but the morale and fatigue.

4. Well, in the north we are rather thin (well for me that is [:D]), I realize that the rest of you scream bloody murder at the though of having a rifle corps placed against the Axis stacks and do nothing, but in my mind it pins down Axis units in the quiet sectors, denying them to reinforce the areas south of the Moscow-Minsk line.
That being said, there are a few hexes held by a mere division, and it makes me uneasy... I do not trust the divisions [;)]


Terje




terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (1/31/2012 7:00:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

Better to merge than to disband. Probably have to break down the Corps before merging the components to other units.



In the words of Homer Simpson - "D'Oh!" that one never occured to me.


Terje




Flaviusx -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (1/31/2012 7:02:54 PM)

I'm not sure you can merge rifle corps breakdowns into full strength rifle corps, that's a novel situation.

If he's got more rifle corps than his replacement situation can really support, then economies must be made, one way or the other. I strongly suspect he build too many of them to begin with. (Too many being more than 150ish or so, and it's a stretch to maintain even that many.)





terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (1/31/2012 7:08:55 PM)

Turn 198

Overall
The Axis does not fall back, so we manage 58 attacks this turn, scoring 11 held, 45 retreat and 2 rout. The high ammount of battles means lots of casualties;
Axis : 105.000 troops and 425 AFVs
USSR : 142.000 troops and 852(!!!) AFVs.

Units
The fronts are readjusted in that we once more try to form up to the principle "same goes with same".
Our forces claim a growth of 58.000 troops.

Pools
159.000 workers arrive at the manpower pool this turn, ending it at 7.494.
Vehicle pool : 232.377.
Armaments pool : 969.547.

Units destroyed
The German 111th Fortified Zone is destroyed this turn. There are forts all along the west bank of the Dnepr, since they do not really halt my advance in any way, I think I would have disbanded them.

Operation Surprise
Well this failed on the opening stages with the Rumanian Division there, our guys are now just wandering, trying to force the Axis to attack them, but it has allready moved a division from the Axis defence of the straight. Too bad I am still too weak to attack across.

Partisans
7 units are chased away, which leaves 20 units on the map. Our guys manage 8 acts of sabotague this turn.



[image]local://upfiles/11504/604D859E68E5429A998897A54669BF93.jpg[/image]




terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (1/31/2012 7:10:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I'm not sure you can merge rifle corps breakdowns into full strength rifle corps, that's a novel situation.

If he's got more rifle corps than his replacement situation can really support, then economies must be made, one way or the other. I strongly suspect he build too many of them to begin with. (Too many being more than 150ish or so, and it's a stretch to maintain even that many.)





You are correct, I built too many, one more for the "n00b"-account [:)]

Terje




Seminole -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (1/31/2012 7:10:50 PM)

quote:

The units in question was within supply range, so that should not be the major issue with them, but they did have low morale, and pretty much every front is overloaded.
The rifle corps was probably the one that was out of supply as it jumped to 14 MP when it moved a fex hexes back, and hence survived the purge.


Morale is not a factor.  RTFM [:D]
Fatigue, supplies (or fuel for motorized), Admin check and Initiative checks are what determine MP.

If you've overloaded the parent HQ they may still have an issue getting their full supply allotment (too many kitties, not enough titties).  Check their supply vs need to see how they're doing.

I'd advocate NOT overloading your combat HQs and their respective Fronts (reduces the chance of making leadership rolls), and instead have some follow on HQs that report to Stavka that you rotate really tired/worn out units in need of refit to 10+ hexes behind the line (so that morale recovers as quickly as possible).






terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (1/31/2012 7:14:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole
Morale is not a factor.  RTFM [:D]


That would not let you make those remarks, and where is the fun in that [:D]
Ok so I learned something new....again hehe


terje




Tarhunnas -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (1/31/2012 8:41:50 PM)

Nice AAR! Interesting to see some other players getting into 1945.




terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (1/31/2012 9:22:10 PM)

turn 199

Overall
Mud...That pretty much sums it up. We pull back so that we only have 1 unit on the frontline, and make sure all mechanized/tank corps are behind the line as well. Time to rest and prepare for the last offensive that will come.
Losses are estimated at;
Axis : 22.000 troops and 42 AFVs
USSR : 76.000 troops and 170 AFVs

Units
Our forces claim a growth of 69.000 troops this turn.

Pools
163.000 workers arrive at the manpower pool, ending it at 1.
Vehicle pool : 239.019
Armaments pool : 975.536.




terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (1/31/2012 9:22:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Nice AAR! Interesting to see some other players getting into 1945.


Thank you [:)]

Terje




randallw -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (1/31/2012 11:33:36 PM)

Soviet unit building should be at least 3 months before you need units to defend with and longer for attacking with them.




76mm -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (2/1/2012 2:40:33 AM)

terje, what are your respective OOB manpower strengths?




terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (2/1/2012 1:14:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

Soviet unit building should be at least 3 months before you need units to defend with and longer for attacking with them.


The problem I suffered in this game was the extreme losses, due to poor judgement on my part, in -42 and -43.

Terje




terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (2/1/2012 1:16:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

terje, what are your respective OOB manpower strengths?


OOB at the start of turn 199



[image]local://upfiles/11504/5398A6D37C38406E9E282BB771DA93AB.jpg[/image]




gingerbread -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (2/1/2012 4:04:54 PM)

Flaviusx' concern was warranted, I tried to merge a Corps component to another Corps in the '43 scen but that is not possible.

Sorry for confusion caused.




Flaviusx -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (2/1/2012 4:26:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

Flaviusx' concern was warranted, I tried to merge a Corps component to another Corps in the '43 scen but that is not possible.

Sorry for confusion caused.



I assume this goes also goes for any kind of broken down unit. They're probably restricted to their parent unit only.




Q-Ball -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (2/1/2012 4:42:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

4. I also wonder if you couldn't thin out the line elsewhere. After 1943, you barely need to defend as Soviets; what are the Germans going to do, advance? You can leave whole sectors undefended, the Germans aren't going anywhere....


4. Well, in the north we are rather thin (well for me that is [:D]), I realize that the rest of you scream bloody murder at the though of having a rifle corps placed against the Axis stacks and do nothing, but in my mind it pins down Axis units in the quiet sectors, denying them to reinforce the areas south of the Moscow-Minsk line.
That being said, there are a few hexes held by a mere division, and it makes me uneasy... I do not trust the divisions [;)]

Terje


After 1943, though, what are the Germans going to do against a division on the line? Here are the options besides nothing:

1. Minor attack: By 1943, units should have morale/experience that they will inflict about 1/2 the casualties on the Germans that they suffer. This isn't productive for the Germans, and favors you.
2. Major attack: So he pockets a few divisions, but his Panzers are out in the open. Or in an unimportant sector. Either way, I don't know why I would do that as the Germans.

Don't worry about it. In fact, in the heavy woods east of the Volkhov, you could leave it undefended completely. I'm serious. What's he going to do? Advance? He has to leave guys up there regardless if you do or not, so you would tie down Germans with Air. That's an extreme example, but you have to get men where it counts.

Here are some other things you can do to raise the TOE of your Rifle Corps, if you havent' already:

1. Disband almost all Construction Bdes. (Keep a handful to repair rail, but that's all you need them for, and maybe not much of that, since you have FBD units now)
2. Disband any extra Army HQs (you may have already)
3. Disband any Air HQs more than 1 per front (you may have already; you only need 1 per front)

Focus SU builds on TANKS. You have plenty of TANKS in the pool, and Tank SUs are very cheap from a Manpower perspective (but have firepower). You need firepower that is manpower-cheap, and that's Tanks.




randallw -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (2/1/2012 6:23:30 PM)

Wow, I hadn't noticed that Oloren has over 7k tanks in the field. Well that's a problem.




terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (2/3/2012 12:24:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

After 1943, though, what are the Germans going to do against a division on the line? Here are the options besides nothing:

1. Minor attack: By 1943, units should have morale/experience that they will inflict about 1/2 the casualties on the Germans that they suffer. This isn't productive for the Germans, and favors you.
2. Major attack: So he pockets a few divisions, but his Panzers are out in the open. Or in an unimportant sector. Either way, I don't know why I would do that as the Germans.

3. Don't worry about it. In fact, in the heavy woods east of the Volkhov, you could leave it undefended completely. I'm serious. What's he going to do? Advance? He has to leave guys up there regardless if you do or not, so you would tie down Germans with Air. That's an extreme example, but you have to get men where it counts.

Here are some other things you can do to raise the TOE of your Rifle Corps, if you havent' already:

4. Disband almost all Construction Bdes. (Keep a handful to repair rail, but that's all you need them for, and maybe not much of that, since you have FBD units now)
5. Disband any extra Army HQs (you may have already)
6. Disband any Air HQs more than 1 per front (you may have already; you only need 1 per front)

7. Focus SU builds on TANKS. You have plenty of TANKS in the pool, and Tank SUs are very cheap from a Manpower perspective (but have firepower). You need firepower that is manpower-cheap, and that's Tanks.


1. & 2. Deep down I know you are correct of course, however the disasters inflicted on my forces by losing my flank in -43 scared me, this is probably also my fear of leaving divisions alone on the front.

3. yet, I still attack a hex every now and then, the advance here is just slower, not non-existing.

4. Do not have alot of them, have some RR units, but with the ammount of RR still in need of repair, I will keep them a little longer.

5. Do not have any, should probably BUILD another army or two

6. Do not even have 1 per front at the moment

7. Most my units have 3 SUs attached now, most used items are sappers, heavy tanks, AT units of various kinds and SUs. I do not see my CV as a major issue really, as it seems these often have minimal impact on the outcome anyway... 15 : 1 -> 1.8 : 1 etc...And does not tank SUs demand even more trucks? But sure, I guess I can build some more tank units for the units that still lack SUs.

Again thank you for good advice (even though I might not follow them all [:)])


Terje




terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (2/3/2012 12:25:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

Wow, I hadn't noticed that Oloren has over 7k tanks in the field. Well that's a problem.


Nah, the problem is the date and distance to Berlin [:D]
I can bypass any X-factored CV stack the Axis place, forcing it to fall back, the Axis issue now is not numbers, but morale (confirmed by Oloren).

Terje




terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (2/3/2012 12:31:47 AM)

Turn 200

Overall
We manage 3 attacks in the mud,scoring 1 held and 2 retreats. We also spot the Axis fallback line being built.
Losses are reported as;
Axis : 33.000 troops and 69 AFVs
USSR : 58.000 troops and 124 AFVs.

Units
2 FBs (both set to bombing) and 16 TACs are sent to the reserves this turn. Some points are spent on reassigning a few units. The good thing about this turn is that the Turkish border guards are released. They have been annoying me, sitting there getting fat.
Our forces claim a growth of 90.000 troops this turn.

Pools
136.000 arrive at the manpower pool, so it ends at a staggering 357...
Vehicle pool : 222.798.
Armaments pool : 991.475.

Units destroyed
The 23rd Hungarian Infantry Divsion is overrun and surrenders this turn.

Partisans
7 units are chased away, leaving 24 on the map. Our guys perform 19 acts of sabotague.




[image]local://upfiles/11504/0CC3EF86B92E4E4ABE883C55ACEAB3DF.jpg[/image]




Peltonx -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (2/3/2012 3:28:49 AM)

Yes morale is the key again.

The German player in this game was able to stay on the attack into 43 along most of the front. Which means Terje was not able to start to dent it until the summer of 1944 a full yr behind historical.

Disbanding troops here, changing su's and leaving the ffront open there can't make up for that.

A bad 42 can't be over come easly and a bad 43 can not be over come at all. I think thats becoming clear the more AAR's that get late in the war.
A bad 42 for the German is game set match. I personally know how clear that is.

Pelton




terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (2/3/2012 5:19:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Yes morale is the key again.

The German player in this game was able to stay on the attack into 43 along most of the front. Which means Terje was not able to start to dent it until the summer of 1944 a full yr behind historical.

Disbanding troops here, changing su's and leaving the ffront open there can't make up for that.

A bad 42 can't be over come easly and a bad 43 can not be over come at all. I think thats becoming clear the more AAR's that get late in the war.
A bad 42 for the German is game set match. I personally know how clear that is.

Pelton


Well, atleast I cannot overcome a bad -41 followed by an even worse -42 and a disaster of a -43 [:)]

Terje




terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (2/3/2012 5:25:42 AM)

Turn 201

Overall
Despite the mud, the Axis try to kill of my units in the Kerch peninsula (isolated as they are), but only manage a held result. We on the other hand launch an outrageous 6 attacks, scoring 2 held and 4 retreats. Losses are still light;
Axis : 37.000 troops and 86 AFVs.
USSR : 55.000 troops and 98 AFVs.
My main focus now, is getting the railroads up and running all the way up to the front so we are ready for a new offensive when the mud clears up.

Units
Our forces report a net growth of 80.000 troops this turn. Most of the units resting behind the line have their fatigue level down to the 0-10 range.

Pools
113.000 workers arrive at the manpower pool, ending it at 864.
Vehicle pool : 219.896.
Armaments pool : 991.987.

Units destroyed
The 10th Rumanian Infantry Division has had enough, and surrendered to us.

Partisans
10 units are forced to retreat, leaving us with a total of 24 units on the map. These 24 units then manage 11 acts of sabotague.



[image]local://upfiles/11504/F143372BA0C9478D96569CF61B3E8160.jpg[/image]




terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (2/4/2012 1:58:37 AM)

Turn 202

Overall
Well, we continue to make the attacks we can make with any chance of success. This turn we score 2 held, 3 retreat and 1 rout, for a total of 6 attacks and 66% success rate. Losses are light on both sides;
Axis : 34.000 troops and 108 AFVs
USSR : 48.000 troops and 90 AFVs.

Units
1 FB and 11 TACs are sent to the reserves, and we spend some points on upgrading some of our aircrafts.
Our ground forces claim a growth of 79.000 troops.

Pools
A mere 102.000 workers arrive at the manpower pool this turn, ending it at 863.
Vehicle pool : 217.824.
Armaments pool : 991.600.

Units destroyed
The German 110th Fortified Zone is destroyed this turn.

Partisans
The Axis force 11 units to retreat, leaving us with 19 on the map. Our guys make 3 sabotague missions this turn.



[image]local://upfiles/11504/9E49B42C770745158AAA1B091BB0560B.jpg[/image]




terje439 -> RE: Disaster in the making. Oloren (axis) vs Terje (USSR) (2/4/2012 5:50:10 AM)

Turn 203

Game patched to latest beta by both players.

Overall
The mud goes away, and the Germans are eager to prove they still have kitchen sinks available to throw at us. The Axis manage 24 attacks for 20 retreat, 3 rout and 1 surrender (The peninsula force). And we have to pick up HQs and airfields all over the place, but we still counterattack with no less than 68 attacks along the front, scoring 18 held and 50 retreats. Despite no reports of resistance in Sevastopol by our recon flights, our invasion force finds out that there are two units there, and retreat back to base. Losses are heavy, but the Axis losses are higher than ours;
Axis : 151.000 troops and 730 AFVs
USSR : 148.000 troops and 596 AFVs.

Units
No aerial units were allowed to rest this turn, as we wanted maximum force against the Axis. We lost the peninsula force of 2 divisions and a brigade (yes, I know this is "waste", but I want to look at how well invasions work).
Our forces have diminished by 31.000 troops this turn.

Pools
A mere 81.000 workers (!!!) arrive at the manpower pool, ending it at 8.598.
Vehicle pool : 229.241.
Armaments pool : 985.274.

Partisans
5 units are forced to retreat, leaving 15 to do some mischief. Sadly they only perform 1 act of sabotague this turn.




[image]local://upfiles/11504/64616C2F204541F382A1371B046F5ACB.jpg[/image]




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