How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (Full Version)

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SPRUANCE74 -> How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/11/2011 7:11:51 PM)

I would like to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & would appreciate guidance on how best to do this & when. I would like to know how to create a supply line & get supplies to the adjacent hex which also needs support. I have heard that one needs to “prep” the troops before battle, but I don’t see this in the manual.

Here is the Data for Port Moresby on 9-5-42:
Port Capacity 2[0] Expanding 4%
Airfield Capacity 4[2] Expanding 31%
Fortifications 3[9] Building 30%
Shipping Docked 8,2000 [12,000/9000]
Supply 2717 [Orange – unloading]
Supply Required 5361
Fuel 4398 [Orange - unloading]
Fuel Requested 6023
Support 626 [Red – unloading]
Support Required 662
Aviation Support 179 [Red – unloading]
Aviation Support Required 187
Engrs 63
Engr Vehicle 29
Art 51
Flak 13
5 TFs unloading, 2 Docked
Aircraft Total 187, Ready 138, Not Ready 49
Infantry 4265
Vehicles 44
Guns 193
2nd Line Troops 12,162
Assault Strength 401

4 INFANTRY BRIGADES I COULD MOVE FROM PORT MORESBY
[I made Tables for the following which look great, but they don't line up well in the Preview. I hope you can match the numbers with the Headings. Support Required numbers for 3 brigades [[2,3,4] were in RED.]

NO. NAME AV SUPPORT SUPPORT
REQUIRD
1. 14TH Aus Brgd 72 125 80
2. 1ST Aus/1st Brgd 129 12 150
Still unloading Red
3. 6th Aus/16th Brgd 143 18 205
Red
4. 6th Aus/17th
Brgd 45 0 79
Red


NO. NAME EXP MORALE FAT SUPPLy SUPPLIES
REQUIRED
1. 14TH Aus Brgd 41 39 25 441 234
2. 1ST Aus/1st Brgd 39 54 6 172 162
3. 6th Aus/16th Brgd 76 76 27 475 224
4. 6th Aus/17th
Brgd 76 77 26 157 79





ALLIED TROOPS IN ADJACENT HEX
30TH Aus Brigade, Bombarding Japs [change to defend?]
Infantry 1432
Vehicles 1
Guns 33
Other Troops 1935
Supply 502
Supply Required 552 - RED
Support 133
Support Required 174 – RED
Assault Strength 138
Exp 62
Morale 61
Disruption 12
Fatigue 26
How do I get supplies & support to this hex?

JAP TROOPS IN ADJACENT HEX
Enemy Units 2
Spotted Jap Troops 3580
Guns 11
AFVs 0



Alfred -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/11/2011 7:42:54 PM)

Air dropping of supplies is the only effective thing you could do, and that is a waste of time when you are talking of only a one hex distance.

For the troops just set the destination to the hex co0ordinate. That is done on the unit screen.

Prepping is covered in s.8.2.1.4 of the manual - but you can't prep for a non base hex.

Alfred



SPRUANCE74 -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/11/2011 8:40:11 PM)

quote:

but you can't prep for a non base hex.


I assume that I can prep the troops at Port Moresby, correct?



Alfred -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/11/2011 8:47:30 PM)

Yes, but it will have zero impact on the combat in the adjacent hex.

Alfred



Schanilec -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/11/2011 9:05:08 PM)

Prep for Buna and/or Salamaua from Port Morseby. Airlift supplies from Australian bases to the adjacent hex. I see a lot of red. You need more of everything at Port Morseby and the adjacent hex for that matter. Anything going on at Milne Bay? Who's in control?



Alfred -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/12/2011 2:16:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Schanilec

Prep for Buna and/or Salamaua from Port Morseby. Airlift supplies from Australian bases to the adjacent hex. I see a lot of red. You need more of everything at Port Morseby and the adjacent hex for that matter. Anything going on at Milne Bay? Who's in control?


I see I wasn't sufficiently clear with my post #2.

The OP plans are not particularly good. It's his game so it is up to him to make his own mistakes but I thought the nudge against air dropping supplies would suffice to encourage a reassessment of the plans. To advise otherwise is somewhat superficial.

1. There is no Allied benefit gained by fighting outside of the Port Moresby hex. Outside of the base,

(a) the benefit of the Port Moresby fortification levels will not be present
(b) the LCUs will get less supply than if they are inside the base
(c) air dropping of supplies out in the open is not an efficient delivery mode
(d) there almost certainly will be a shortage of Allied transport planes to mount a really significant air drop
(e) the transport pilots are probably quite inexperienced so operational losses will soon mount
(f) where exactly on the Australian mainland will these air drops originate from and will that mainland base be sufficiently built up to sustain the aerial supply operation
(g) LCUs gain no benefit from whatever their objective is whereas if the objective is Port Moresby and their objective is Port Moresby, subject to having the right HQs in place, combat bonuses apply to combat within the Port Moresby hex
(h) CAP cover for LCUs outside of Port Moresby is more difficult and less efficient that CAP cover for LCUs present within Port Moresby

2. Supply depots are not built out in the field, only at bases. So why not forget about second best options and go directly to the best option which is to build up the Port Moresby depots. Especially when the Port Moresby depots are not in good shape. The primary concern should be to build up the Port Moresby infrastructure to allow offensive operations.

3. Overland supply movement from base to non base hex is basically out of the control of the player

4. If the intention is to move overland to Buna/Salamua then what exactly is the point of fighting the enemy on the way. Go around them. Fighting them one hex away from Port Moresby just stops the forward march of the Allied units until they can force the enemy to retreat. Are the Allied forces intended to be committed sufficient to force a retreat? If the intention is not to go to Buna/Salamua, then what is the point of giving those LCUs those objectives.

First establish what the plan is, what is intended to be accomplished. Then the appropriate tactical considerations can be properly addressed. The manual is quite good on game mechanics and tactical elements. Strategy is not its strongpoint.

Alfred



SPRUANCE74 -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/12/2011 8:06:29 AM)

quote:

Prep for Buna and/or Salamaua from Port Morseby. Airlift supplies from Australian bases to the adjacent hex. I see a lot of red. You need more of everything at Port Morseby and the adjacent hex for that matter. Anything going on at Milne Bay? Who's in control?


I will look for airlift of supplies in the Manual, but if you know where it is I'd appreciate it. I am in control @ Milne Bay & building up. Red in Support & Aviation Support but the #s are close & men are on the way. The Red #s at Port Moresby are much closer in the next turn. I guess I need to move troops into the adjacent hex as the only way to get more Support there. I could withdraw them, concentrate @ Port Moresby & the go around as Alfred suggests, but the 30 th Aus Brigade is holding its own & inflicting more casualties than they are taking by a big margin.

BTW Exciting stuff at Lunga overnight. The Japs tore up my CAs & DDs w/ 1 BB, CAs, & DDs w/ their Night Binocs & Long Lance Torpedoes even though I outnumbered them, but I clobbered them w/ my planes the next day & won - 165 to 128 points in ships sunk! This is a good game.



SPRUANCE74 -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/12/2011 8:24:03 AM)

Alfred,

Thanks for the detailed analysis. It still leaves unanswered the problem of correcting the 2 red areas in the adjacent hex although the numbers are close.
Supplies 502
Supplies Required 552
Suppport 133
Support Required 174
So, I can
[1] move men into the hex,
[2] withdraw them to Port Moresby,
[3] try airlifting supplies which, if it works, still leaves support unresolved, or
[4] don't worry about it.



PaxMondo -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/12/2011 12:54:07 PM)

As Alfred suggested, you really, really, really need to read up on supply and supply movement.  You also need to read up on units and their organic supply and its impact.  I would also suggest that you read up on the turn sequence of events as well.  You are clearly looking at colors and numbers and using your own interpretation as to what they mean.  After you read the appropriate sections, you will understand why your options 1 and 3 are kinda funny, won't work at all, and that Alfred is really trying hard to be polite.  If after reading the appropriate sections outlined by Alfred, you still don't see why the above is accurate, then ask questions about the points in the manual which aren't clear.

To help, let me bring up items that you have not and should be focused on: PM and its environs is bad terrain (jungles, mountains, rough, and no roads) ... terrain has a huge impact upon supply movement per the manual (details per Alfred and the details matter greatly here).  The whole point is that you cannot support large numbers of troops in the Stanley mountains and its jungle environs in the lap of luxury that they would get in a base.  Sorry.  No USO, no beer, no pretzels.  They have to live on C rations.  If you try to fight in bad terrrain, your troops will likely (always?) be short on supply.  502 is not zero.  For the terrain, they are in GOOD supply at 502/552.  The fact you consider this bad supply is why you are directed back to the manual.

PS: another point: beware believing your commanders' reports on losses so literally.  FOW means "Fog Of War".  Your losses may be somewhat accurate.  Don't be surprised if your opponents have been inflated.

Alfred: sorry to horn in.  This is why I only teach a few classes a year and only graduate level.  Those that teach full time have my full respect and admiration.  Patience truly is a virtue.



Alfred -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/12/2011 6:54:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SPRUANCE74

quote:

Prep for Buna and/or Salamaua from Port Morseby. Airlift supplies from Australian bases to the adjacent hex. I see a lot of red. You need more of everything at Port Morseby and the adjacent hex for that matter. Anything going on at Milne Bay? Who's in control?


I will look for airlift of supplies in the Manual, but if you know where it is I'd appreciate it. I am in control @ Milne Bay & building up. Red in Support & Aviation Support but the #s are close & men are on the way. The Red #s at Port Moresby are much closer in the next turn. I guess I need to move troops into the adjacent hex as the only way to get more Support there. I could withdraw them, concentrate @ Port Moresby & the go around as Alfred suggests, but the 30 th Aus Brigade is holding its own & inflicting more casualties than they are taking by a big margin.

BTW Exciting stuff at Lunga overnight. The Japs tore up my CAs & DDs w/ 1 BB, CAs, & DDs w/ their Night Binocs & Long Lance Torpedoes even though I outnumbered them, but I clobbered them w/ my planes the next day & won - 165 to 128 points in ships sunk! This is a good game.


You really have to read the entire manual, not just cherry pick.

The most directly relevant and succinct part of the manual dealing with aerial transport of supplies and personel is found at s.7.2.4.

I very rarely say this (last time was about 3 months ago), because I am overwhelmingly in the minority on this issue but I do not recommend a new player starting off with a scenario. Just about everyone else recommends so starting but I see several disadvantages. The ramifications of some of those disadvantages are in play here as SPRUANCE74 is playing the Guadalcanal scenario IIRC.

I said in my last post that the overall plan has to be determined first and then the tactical elements can be properly addressed. The quoted comments about the 30th Bde inflicting enemy casualties bears out my observation. With the greatest respect, if the Allied player is placing any real weight on his observation regarding the value of the casualties being inflicted upon the enemy, then he is fundamentally failing to understand how this game is played to win. What he needs to be doing is:


  • understand exactly what are the victory conditions for the scenario
  • how exactly Victory Points are generated in this scenario
  • how exactly does the current operations of the 30th Bde fit in to the overall scheme of things


At the risk of sounding repetitive, again no value is gained from cherry picking in reading the manual. All I will say at this point is that the casualties being inflicted by the 30th Bde is probably an inefficient way of generating the requisite Victory Points (VP). Consider just this single point:

how many VP can be gained by holding Port Moresby at the end of the scenario compared to the points gained for killing enemy infantry squads?

The answer is almost certain that a fully built up and properly supplied Port Moresby will generate many more points. That being so, wouldn't it make more sense to have the 30th Bde with its organic engineers back at the base building the infrastructure up.

Then when you have done that, the immediate question is which VP do I get for building up the port, airfield and fortification. If I don't receive any VP for building up the forts then why do so. Which in turn also leads to do the port and airfield build at the same rate. In this instance the answer is no, so why are engineers being tasked to building them both?

OK, these are enough comments for now but they should suffice for generating a rethink as to the approach to be taken if the intent is to learn how to actually play AE properly rather than being spoonfed, out of context, the answers as to what to do next.

Alfred



Schanilec -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/12/2011 6:56:01 PM)

A lot of good advise below and above my posts. I'll just shut up, sit back, and listen.[;)]



Alfred -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/12/2011 7:04:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Schanilec

A lot of good advise below and above my posts. I'll just shut up, sit back, and listen.[;)]


A bit drastic![:)]

It is far too easy for newer players to just assume they have nothing to contribute and that only experienced players have worthwhile things to say. I've seen plenty of "experienced" players regularly sprout rubbish which because of their standing, is not adequately exposed.

Experienced players most definitely do not hold a monopoly on providing useful and accurate answers. The greatest issue confronting less experieinced players who wish to post answers is that they probably have to do more research than an experienced player before they post. Being circumspect in their use of language is also probably a wise thing. But no, they shouldn't believe themselves to be precluded from posting.

Alfred



SPRUANCE74 -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/12/2011 8:51:20 PM)

quote:

All I will say at this point is that the casualties being inflicted by the 30th Bde is probably an inefficient way of generating the requisite Victory Points (VP).


I had no intention of conveying that idea. I simply threw it in as a minor point that the brigade was holding its own & was not being pressed to retreat at this time. Are you saying that casualties have no impact on the game? Apparently, by asking specific questions about details that I would like answers for, that doesn't mean that I haven't looked for them in the Manual or that I have no overall concept of the main strategy points or understand Victory Points. I find the Manual difficult to read, the Index is poor in my view, its time-consuming to try & find the answers to my questions which are sometimes not there, & I get more out of using the Forum. I believe details however small are important. As was said about the death of Richard III, "For want of a nail, a shoe was lost, etc..."

Someone commented about the "Fog of War" influencing my counts of enemy ships sunk. As I have mentioned, I turned off that option for this scenario so I could get an accurate count while I am learning the game.

I appreciate those trying to help, be polite, and teach. I was also a techer - a full-professor at a medical school. I have always felt that we are all students and teachers at various levels of expertise. I have always loved military history, especially WW II and the Civil War. Now that I am retired, I am enjoying playing game such as this one.



SPRUANCE74 -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/12/2011 9:01:08 PM)

quote:

502 is not zero. For the terrain, they are in GOOD supply at 502/552. The fact you consider this bad supply is why you are directed back to the manual.


As I said , I thought the numbers were close, but they are high-lighted in RED, which as a newbie I assumed was important to correct. Isn't that a valid point?

BTW, the scenario placed those troops there, not me.



Schanilec -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/12/2011 9:06:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Schanilec

A lot of good advise below and above my posts. I'll just shut up, sit back, and listen.[;)]


A bit drastic![:)]

It is far too easy for newer players to just assume they have nothing to contribute and that only experienced players have worthwhile things to say. I've seen plenty of "experienced" players regularly sprout rubbish which because of their standing, is not adequately exposed.

Experienced players most definitely do not hold a monopoly on providing useful and accurate answers. The greatest issue confronting less experieinced players who wish to post answers is that they probably have to do more research than an experienced player before they post. Being circumspect in their use of language is also probably a wise thing. But no, they shouldn't believe themselves to be precluded from posting.

Alfred

No, no, I'm fine. I'll raise my hand when I have anything more to contribute. However sitting in the back of the room has it's advantages. Sneaking out for bathroom breaks or a little nip of shnapps and a smoke outside. Slip back on in and no one is the wiser.[:)]



SPRUANCE74 -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/13/2011 12:54:39 AM)

quote:

which VP do I get for building up the port, airfield and fortification. If I don't receive any VP for building up the forts then why do so. Which in turn also leads to do the port and airfield build at the same rate. In this instance the answer is no, so why are engineers being tasked to building them both?


OK. I see that building the airfield gets 2x the VPs vs. the Port & forts get 0, so I will build up the airfield 1st.



SPRUANCE74 -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/13/2011 1:01:50 AM)

quote:

The answer is almost certain that a fully built up and properly supplied Port Moresby will generate many more points. That being so, wouldn't it make more sense to have the 30th Bde with its organic engineers back at the base building the infrastructure up.


I am moving the 30th Bde to Port Moresby & setting all Future Objectives as Buna.



crsutton -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/13/2011 1:10:04 AM)

A big factor is support. If you don't have enough then things won't work as well. I am not sure but if you have units out of the base and they have less support than the minimum required then the flow of supply will be less. Time to get some HQs there and base forces with good support units.

Support matters..



SPRUANCE74 -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/13/2011 1:22:04 AM)

1. There is no Allied benefit gained by fighting outside of the Port Moresby hex. Outside of the base,

quote:

(g) LCUs gain no benefit from whatever their objective is whereas if the objective is Port Moresby and their objective is Port Moresby, subject to having the right HQs in place, combat bonuses apply to combat within the Port Moresby hex
(h) CAP cover for LCUs outside of Port Moresby is more difficult and less efficient that CAP cover for LCUs present within Port Moresby


I assume LCUs are Land Combat Units? My original thought was to build up Port Moresby, then march overland & take Buna possibly combined with an amphibious invasion. While I would gain only 4 VP points, it would deprive Japan of 12. Based on your comment above and experience, however, you seem to favor building up Port Moresby which might yield more VPs & force the Japs to attack me at their disadvantage - fortifications, air power, CAP, etc. If I decide on the latter, I need to change my Future Objectives from Buna to Port Moresby. If I do this, I will lose planning points of those units whose Future Objective has been Buna for a few turns, 4 units[range 29-35]. Any comments or suggestions?



JeffroK -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/13/2011 4:30:42 AM)

Of course everyone views are different.

Dont play for VP, play as if it were real.

Keep prepping for Buna, your 4 Bdes at Pt Moresby should be enough to hold, especially if you build forts so being unprepped shouldnt hurt.

Build Forts as well as Port & AB at Pt Moresby, its no good having a big airfield and find the IJA taking over it. (Plus I think its helps supply)

I would keep 30 Bde in the jungle, it gives your air a target to attrit the IJA and allows your Pt Moresby garrison to build up, the IJA doesnt get any prep bonus and their supply is just as bad as yours, if not worse.  (Kill the IJA in the jungle, dont let them get back to Buna)  You dont have to advance via the same hex, go around them (as Alfred mentioned)

Work out where you are going to win, get the right priorities, an amphib attack on Buna is putting your head in the lions mouth unless you have won in the Solomons. Would it be of more value to land at Munda or Buka? Even landings at Woodlark etc would give you base potential in the same area.

If you do invade, use a Division to smash a target rather than a Brigade, 2 Divisions rather than 1.



steamboateng -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/15/2011 8:28:51 AM)

My $.02 (for the little its worth)!
First off, given the time line and objectives of the scenario, there is little or no benefit to supply PM with fuel (production is off). Ships can just as easily refuel at Townsville (your base of ops for that area). Why expose shipping to sub and air attacks to xfer fuel to PM? (Milne Bay also)
Secondly; within the scope of the scenario, an agressive thrust towards Buna/Salamanua is warrented. (it''s also historic). You will require at least 3 bn's to succeed. Once Buna is isolated w/air attacks on its port and supplies (which can catch a lot of Japaneese shipping), the Horri Group(in the hex adjacent to PM) will wilt on the vine due to supply shortages. ((intermittent attacks on Mr Horri & Co will hasten his wilt0.
Thirdly; PM, given adequate supplies, can support 3-5 bn's moving on Buna! It may be a wait between assaults to resupply your forces, but then patience is a virtue, and in WitP AE, it's also a game winner.
Build up PM to support a ground attack. Beef up it's air defenses w/AAA to allow you to free up some air units to attack Buna (and the N. coast bases of P-NG or even Rabaul).
Mostly..............have fun. Work it out.....you can do it. At least you got beer and women handy. Those poor Ausies trying to open up the Kocobannanas trail, didn't!



Alfred -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/15/2011 9:16:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SPRUANCE74

1. There is no Allied benefit gained by fighting outside of the Port Moresby hex. Outside of the base,

quote:

(g) LCUs gain no benefit from whatever their objective is whereas if the objective is Port Moresby and their objective is Port Moresby, subject to having the right HQs in place, combat bonuses apply to combat within the Port Moresby hex
(h) CAP cover for LCUs outside of Port Moresby is more difficult and less efficient that CAP cover for LCUs present within Port Moresby


I assume LCUs are Land Combat Units? My original thought was to build up Port Moresby, then march overland & take Buna possibly combined with an amphibious invasion. While I would gain only 4 VP points, it would deprive Japan of 12. Based on your comment above and experience, however, you seem to favor building up Port Moresby which might yield more VPs & force the Japs to attack me at their disadvantage - fortifications, air power, CAP, etc. If I decide on the latter, I need to change my Future Objectives from Buna to Port Moresby. If I do this, I will lose planning points of those units whose Future Objective has been Buna for a few turns, 4 units[range 29-35]. Any comments or suggestions?


No, I'm not prescribing what you should or shouldn't do. What I am trying to do is to get you to look at the situation more deeply than you seem to have done to date.[:)]

1. Yes, LCU = Land Combat Unit.

2. If your assessment is that, in the context of this scenario, the capture of Buna is a worthwhile exercise, then go for it. If that is your assessment, then of course it would be counter productive to change the objective of a LCU which already has Buna as the objective. But that just highlights my point as to why you want to avoid the 30th Bde being slowed down by having to fight outside of Port Moresby. Just send the LCUs you had in mind around the fighting and march directly to Buna.

3. You start off with the 30th Bde fighting outside of Port Moresby because that is the historical position the unit found itself in. In real life, there was a benefit to fighting the enemy to a standstill outside of Port Moresby. However in AE, as previously mentioned, no such benefit accrues. Hence if in your assessment the priority is to hold Port Moresby rather than capturing Buna, well that is when you would need to consider whether a move back to Port Moresby (and a consequent change of objective) is tactically warranted.

4. There is no uncertainty as to the VP value of Port Moresby. That is something which is quite easily determined. There is an absolute maximum of current and potential VP attached to Port Moresby. Again it is for you to determine how important they are in the overall context of the scenario. Then it is up to you to determine:

(a) what are the conditions needed to be met for those VP to be credited to the Allied player
(b) whether it is feasible for those conditions to be met

As I said earlier, first formulate the overall plan by which you think an Allied victory can be achieved. Then, and only then, is it possible to look at and test the efficacy of the tactical considerations to achieve the desired outcome.

In a separate post, you decided to concentrate on building up the airfield at the expense of the port and fortifications. The process by which you came to that decision is faulty.

Fortifications do not generate VP. Whilst airfield levels generate more VP, it is wrong to say that port levels do not generate VP. The decision to concentrate on building up the airfield I believe is the correct decision, but the correct process to come to that decision should have been reached after taking into account thiese considerations;

(A) the port could be built up only one more level whereas if I recall correctly, there is more potential to building up the airfield

(B) in this scenario (remember I spoke previously of bad ramifications of playing scenarios) the SPS of the port is 0, hence irrespective of its current level, it is always going to be much slower and consume a lot more supplies to build the port up compared to building the airfield

(C) notwithstanding the preceding points, it might make sense to build up the port because the rate of unloading cargo is directly dependent on the size of the port. Hence the quickest way to build up the supply stockpile at Port Moresby is to enlarge the port. Whether that is the appropriate course of action again takes us back to the fundamental issue of how you plan to achieve victory in this scenario

Alfred



dorjun driver -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/15/2011 10:13:53 AM)

Alfred, you may be one lucid SOB, but damnit, you’re our lucid SOB! [;)]



SPRUANCE74 -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/15/2011 5:36:38 PM)

It is great to get the various views, options, and strategies from experienced players coupled with historic facts I have forgotten or didn't know. To sum up, I have stayed with my original plan to set Buna as the target thereby keeping my planning points. I have kept my original plan to build up all 3: airfield, port, & forts for now realizing that airfield has 2x VPs , Ports 1x, & forts 0. I will modify this later probably focusing on the airfield as Alfred has suggested. I appreciate steamboat eng's tip to get fuel from Townsville rather than expose my tankers to subs & enemy air, but my question is, wouldn't this put my fuel status at PM in the RED thereby lowering my VP Score? I would appreciate comments from others about this. My tankers are few & precious so it would be good to restrict them for use elsewhere, but I do protect them w/ ASW escorts. My plan now @ 9-29-42 is to use my TKs & AOs for 3 pathways: [1] to Lunga, [2] to Port Moresby [or Townsville], and [3] Replenishment for Carriers & other TFs @ sea. I have now moved troops & support to PM, so Support is no longer in Red. Fuel, Supplies, & Aviation Support are close to the Required Levels & more is on the way. I now have 4 fleet carriers [the Wasp has been repaired & back in action along w/ Enterprise, Saratoga, and Hornet] and 1 CVE [Long Island]. I sunk the Shokaku and 1 CVL [Ryujo] & badly damaged the Zuikaku which has been located at Rabaul.

I have set Tassafaronga as the Target for my forces at Lunga since I want o get the Japs off the Island. I am sending a strong surface fleet there to prevent reinforcements from the Tokyo Express protected by LRCAP from Lunga & carriers. I am mining the port there. I may also put one or more carriers there for CAP rather than only LRCAP protection. I have cut the range on my SBDs & TBFs to 6 to keep them from attacking without fighter escort & exposing them to Zeros. Comments & suggestions, as always, are welcome & appreciated.

A couple of minor questions. I want to use my SCs for ASW Patrols in areas where I am finding Jap subs, esp. around Sydney, Brisbane, Aussie coast in general, arounnd Lunga, etc., but the Endure is often in Red. How best to efficiently get them there from Noumea, use them & keep them refueled so they can hunt efficiently? There is a similar endurance issue w/ the AMs.



SPRUANCE74 -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/15/2011 6:00:17 PM)

Another minor point. I placed a sub w/ Mission "Minelaying" at Sydney, Port Capacity 8 [9]. I assume it will automatically take on mines on my next turn?



SPRUANCE74 -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/16/2011 6:06:02 AM)

quote:

Another minor point. I placed a sub w/ Mission "Minelaying" at Sydney, Port Capacity 8 [9]. I assume it will automatically take on mines on my next turn?


No mines were loaded on the next turn. Any suggestions as to how I can get it to do so?



Alfred -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/16/2011 6:16:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dorjun driver

Alfred, you may be one lucid SOB, but damnit, you’re our lucid SOB! [;)]



Aw, shucks <in best Academy Awards voice> I really don't deserve this award of Supreme Omniscient Being.

However, seeing that I have been awarded the SOB accolade, I'll just address a few comments which have been scattered throughout this thread.

1. A shortage of support does not impact on the flow of supplies. Lack of supplies will, inter alia, lead to greater disuption in a LCU, which disruption in turn is reduced if adequate support is present.

2. Yes, a number in red is not good but not all red numbers are created equal. The ill effects of different red numbers vary; some are more bearable than others.

3. Turning off FOW still does not give perfect knowledge. This has been commented in another recent thread involving the OP.

4. Earning 100% of a base's VP is not dependent on having fuel in the green. Only the presence of supplies is factored into the determination.

5. Merchantmen can ship in fuel. Tankers carry fuel on a 1:1 basis whereas merchantmen carry fuel in their dry cargo holds on a 1:2 basis.

6. Fuel requirements for a port are calculated on the basis of:

(a) 1000 x port level
(b) number of ships whose home port it is
(c) any industry requirements

One can therefore minimise the formally requested fuel requirements of Port Moresby by reducing the number of ships who call Port Moresby home. Also if no ships top up their bunkers when they visit Port Moresby, again there will be less demand on the actual Port Moresby fuel stocks and the significance of having them in the "red" becomes purely an intellectual exercise.

7. The endurance range of SCs and AMs is not a problem. Change the home port of the task force. Thus if you are conducting ASW operations in the vicinity of Sydney make the ASW task force's home port be Sydney. Ditto for Brisbane, Lunga etc. Now if the problem is getting the small combat ships from point A to point B initially, just place them in a task force type which allows for the inclusion of higher endurance ships. The shorter legged ships will refuel from the longer legged on their trip to get into position off Sydney, Brisbane et al.

8. Any port size 7 can rearm mines on to a minelayer ship/submarine. Smaller ports can do so with the assistance of naval support squads. Thus Sydney, a size 8 port, will suffice. However, unlike other naval weapons, you can only reload mines if they are available in the pool. No mine in the pool, no reload irrespective of size of port or the quantum of supply present.

Alfred



SPRUANCE74 -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/16/2011 8:07:52 AM)

Much useful info, Alfred. Thanks. My comment on the mines is on the "Minelaying" thread where I should have put it to start with.



Mac Linehan -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/16/2011 7:34:30 PM)

Gents -

A very informative discussion.

Alfred - as always, your thoughts and remarks greatly clarify how things work. I also enjoy your sense of humor...

Mac




SPRUANCE74 -> RE: How to move supplies, support, & combat troops from Port Moresby to the adjacent hex & then to Buna? (10/16/2011 10:25:44 PM)

quote:

3. Turning off FOW still does not give perfect knowledge. This has been commented in another recent thread involving the OP.


Point taken. I'm tracking this over time in order to compare it with the final stats which I assume WILL be accurate. Correct?

Incidentally, the specific goals, end game & final date of this scenario [GC] are not clearly stated. I assume based on the VPs I've taken vs. those left to take that I've already won barring some catastrophic event. This makes it difficult to plan any sophisticated strategy which I guess will have to wait for the Big Game. I see the main purpose of the scenario is to learn the logistical and other details which are far more complex and detailed than any game I have played.

"Earning 100% of a base's VP is not dependent on having fuel in the green. Only the presence of supplies is factored into the determination." This is good to know.

"Merchantmen can ship in fuel. Tankers carry fuel on a 1:1 basis whereas merchantmen carry fuel in their dry cargo holds on a 1:2 basis."

I didn't realize this & haven't been doing it. The biggest problem is the limited production of fuel at Noumea & Sydney which reflects the actual limitations at this stage of the war. I had been deliberately not loading fuel to keep the bases from being "Too Red." Based on what you have just said, there is no real penalty for refueling as fast as it becomes available as long as I keep enough for the two bases to meet their own needs. I've already sent virtually all the planes away to cut down on fuel consumption.

Fuel requirements for a port are calculated on the basis of:

(a) 1000 x port level
(b) number of ships whose home port it is
(c) any industry requirements

"One can therefore minimise the formally requested fuel requirements of Port Moresby by reducing the number of ships who call Port Moresby home. Also if no ships top up their bunkers when they visit Port Moresby, again there will be less demand on the actual Port Moresby fuel stocks and the significance of having them in the "red" becomes purely an intellectual exercise."

I don't have many ships using Port Moresby as home base but I have many using Noumea & Sydney. I want these ship to go back to port as soon as they unload to get more fuel, supplies, troops, etc. Based on what you have said, I can look to cut these down & assign them to other ports which would lower the fuel requirement for the two big bases.

I figured out the endurance question RE SCs & AMs after I posted it, but thanks anyway.



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