EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (Full Version)

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Mike29 -> EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 12:10:43 PM)

Hi all,

first of all sorry for my English, I have no time translate correctly all our emotions about the following **** .

We are group of Russian players have found the unsolvable problem with German aviation. As you all know, German production of fighters is about 24 BF109 and 16 BF110. Against 200+ of Soviet new fighters and thousands of old ones in pool. This is not problem yet, just start. As also generally known, fighters can not fly after some quantity of passed miles. That is why many multipleer games contain limitations of attacks on airfields.

Example - I play Soviet, attack enemy group of fields many times, and after first losses enemy fighters just can not fly and i kill them on the ground. Total losses is about 1 to 1 (1 to 1,5). ****ing good for Russia!

So we limit attacks 1 per field per turn. Then we found another exploit - Soviet attacks units many times (so called mosquito attacks, 100+ flies on every units). Notwithstanding of German air docrines after that attacks any ****ing JG has 100% and can not defend their own fields. If we set doctines 0 per cent for intercept they just don't fly and the result the same.

PLEASE ADVICE WHAT SHALL WE DO WITH ALL OF THIS, we can not find correct balance of air losses in 1941. With any rules and playing for both countries we have dead Luftwaffe before the Fall 1941. Now we are thinking about total exclude of airfield attacks for Soviet party, but would it be honest and historical? May be you know how to keep Soviet fields empty each turn, but in my opinion there aren't enough fighters in LW to cover all attacks, and after some turns effectiveness of mentioned attacks are about 1 - 3 so this is also suitable for Russia.

We don't want Russia to win LW in 1941, what ideas you have?



Mehring -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 12:41:22 PM)

What game version are you playing? The 1.05 patches make air base raiding much harder for either side and increase plane wastage, particularly old planes.



Mike29 -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 1:13:11 PM)

1.05, but this situation same for all patches. After fighters have 100% the are sim ple targets on the filds no matter how much AA-guns nearest HQ have. We tried to set up to 10 mixed groups of flacks to LW HQ-s, useless. There must something to be changed principally, because, I resume, the following ways to kill german aviation:

1. Permanent repeating "kamikaze" attacks on fields (after some high losses attacks fighters can not fly, and final losses apr. 1 to 1,5)
2. Permanent "mosquito" attacks on different units then mighty attacks on field (in case limitation of 1 attack per field per turn). Much slow but perfect way. Fist of all Army group N.



Klydon -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 1:24:18 PM)

The air model is broken at the moment.

I would limit bombing of airfields to once a turn (after the initial Axis turn) and bombing units once a turn as well.

You could leave it this way for the entire game or work out an agreement that perhaps after a certain date, attacks can go to 2 a turn and then 3 a turn even later. (So for instance 1 a turn until say Jan 43 and then 2 a turn until Jan 44 when it goes to 3 a turn).



Mike29 -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 1:25:43 PM)

As possible solving of the problem we may suggest to increase emmmmm...(how to put in Enlish?) "flight-miles" of German fighters to 300%. It is historical, they were made up to 20 flights a day in fist months of the War. Something like that, in other case amount of Russian crafts rules even if you destroy 1000 soviet planes each turn.



Ketza -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 1:30:36 PM)

I have Soviet opponents doing this to me and with intercept ratings set at 175% they are getting mauled with 10-1 losses. Now they typically only hit the airfields a dozen or so times so maybe that is the difference.



Mike29 -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 1:31:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

and bombing units once a turn as well.



we use this, but as I said after intercepting bombings of units (each unit, but once), German fighters have 100%. Now we are thinking to limit also unit bombings by emm... 3 or 4 for army group for inctance. But this is not so good, its important for USSR to try to increase FAT of any fast German unit.



Mike29 -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 1:35:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

I have Soviet opponents doing this to me and with intercept ratings set at 175% they are getting mauled with 10-1 losses. Now they typically only hit the airfields a dozen or so times so maybe that is the difference.


I can make 100 attacks to your units by groups of 1 - 2 bombers in each attack. I will loose about 25% of them (20 - 30 or less). Then I will attack your fields by groups of 100 crafts and your fighters will be tired to resist. You cannot change your doctrines in my turn, you understand? And I can in mine!



Klydon -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 1:37:27 PM)

I agree with the idea that German fighters should have more flight miles available to help, but I also think there will be some unintended issues as it will cause a lot of planes to become non-operational due to that much flying.

The big thing to me is the German fighters should be able to shoot down a lot of planes as they historically did. The Russian airforce simply was not a factor for much of 1941, yet in this game that is absolutely not the case.



vinnie71 -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 1:40:16 PM)

One 'problem' that I have noticed is the one regarding Soviet experience and morale. So I started a Soviet game and was amazed to find that by September, the bulk of the Soviet airforce experience is in the 50's and the morale isn't bad either. Though it may not seem much, this in fact is the basis of Soviet strength semi-decent experience and morale coupled with infinite airframes. Had it not been the crappy Soviet AF leaders I could have blasted the Luftwaffe out of the sky.

Incidentally I have finally realised something. The arrival of the FW 190 fighter bomber is possibly a godsend for the Axis. this is mainly due to the range factor. Few Russian fighters can actually match its range and thus it would be wiser to hold back LW airfields further back than the Soviets. This would expose Soviet bombers to unescorted raids and crippling losses.



Mike29 -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 1:45:43 PM)

Please, understand correctly, I discuss mechanic problem, no matter experience and amount of soviet fighters. The matter is soviet quantity of aviation allows to overdraft mechanic limit of flight-miles of german fighters, to kill them on the ground then. Consequently allows to destroy them before Fall of 1941. We played couple of games and the result is same. No matter would it be FW190 or Me262 - if it has 100%, it is just ground target.



76mm -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 1:46:30 PM)

From what I have seen (experienced), the Germans do much better if they keep their airbases in large clumps. Isolated airbases, or those in small groups, seem much more vulnerable to being bombed.

I suspect that if German players:

1) keep their airbases out of biplane range;
2) deploy their airbases in large clumps; and
3) increase intercept settings as Ketza suggests,

then this problem largely goes away, the Russians just can't take the losses for very long. I also, think but have not yet confirmed that the quality of the Sov air leaders make a big difference in what kind of losses the Sovs suffer.

That said, overall the air war is completely whacked, I hope they figure out how to fix it soon...



Mike29 -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 1:54:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

The big thing to me is the German fighters should be able to shoot down a lot of planes as they historically did. The Russian airforce simply was not a factor for much of 1941, yet in this game that is absolutely not the case.


I think they shoot-down normally in fair air battles - during covering of a ground operations, free-hunting, airfield attacks and so on. The only problem is soviet airfield-attacks. Historically proportion in air-balltes wasnt 1 to 10 no matter what Hartmann wrote (lets avoid discussing this :)). Of course we lost much planes due operational losses, destroyed by german tanks, not crafts. But we do not want to have 1 to 1 proportion after soviet turn due this mechanic problem.




76mm -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 2:02:35 PM)

Another solution might be a house rule requiring any bombing mission (unit or airbase) to have at least x planes (10? 20? 50?). Those 1-2 plane raids that you describe sound awfully gamey...



Mike29 -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 2:05:13 PM)

se



Mike29 -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 2:07:01 PM)

Yes, now we use this too, but even with such rule german loose. How to upload my save< I will show you how I destroyed JG54 on 10 July 1941. Without mosquito attacks.



Helpless -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 2:07:47 PM)

I do not understand what many are you talking about here. LW is certainly not dead (if not run by AI).

Prior the 1.05.28 there was a major air bug. It was serious enough to have impact on game even after update.

If you are getting any weird result, please post a bug report. FWIW, there are no outstanding air combat issues registered.



Mike29 -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 2:11:05 PM)

Павел спасибо за внимание вникни пожалуйста в проблему, что после 100-процнетного налета немецких истребов можно безнаказанно бить на земле без прикрышки, и количество советской авиации позволяет разными способами умотать джагдешвадеры перед атакой на филды. Дай почту, я пришлю несаколько сейвов, тут нет никакого бага, механика. Мы думаем нужно увеличивать налет немецких истребителей.



Jajusha -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 2:21:36 PM)

I think what Mike is trying to express (and please correct me Mike if i got it wrong):

1) Attack the airfields with your worst crafts until German fighters are at 100% flight miles (can no longer fly). Next, bomb the airfields with your bombers, resulting in 1-1 casualties in airplanes.

2) Playing with a limit of 1 air field attack per turn, a similar exploit. Bomb the enemy units with 1 airplane. LW will mobilize its fighter intercepts. Repeat until fighters stop showing, then bomb the airfield resulting in mass casualties to the German side.



Helpless -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 2:22:19 PM)

It is better to keep communication in English here, but you may send me PM/email in Russian http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showProfile.asp?memid=13846



Helpless -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 2:26:06 PM)

quote:

1) Attack the airfields with your worst crafts until German fighters are at 100% flight miles (can no longer fly). Next, bomb the airfields with your bombers, resulting in 1-1 casualties in airplanes.


Theoretically it is possible, but practically such situation can be avoided by defending side, by no overcomitting intercepts and making extra protection by AA.

LW groups usually have much higher mileage.



Ketza -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 2:34:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike29


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

I have Soviet opponents doing this to me and with intercept ratings set at 175% they are getting mauled with 10-1 losses. Now they typically only hit the airfields a dozen or so times so maybe that is the difference.


I can make 100 attacks to your units by groups of 1 - 2 bombers in each attack. I will loose about 25% of them (20 - 30 or less). Then I will attack your fields by groups of 100 crafts and your fighters will be tired to resist. You cannot change your doctrines in my turn, you understand? And I can in mine!


I understand but have not run into the issue where someone hit a base that often.



76mm -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 2:36:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jajusha
1) Attack the airfields with your worst crafts until German fighters are at 100% flight miles (can no longer fly).


Seems like if the Sovs can do this, the German airbases are too close to the front?



Helpless -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 2:44:06 PM)

quote:

I can make 100 attacks to your units by groups of 1 - 2 bombers in each attack.


Btw, in case of piecemeal attacks intercepts shouldn't be numerous as well and shouldn't generate big mileage. If you see that 1-2 bomber attack causing 20-30 fighter intercepts, please bug it.



vinnie71 -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 2:46:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike29


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

I have Soviet opponents doing this to me and with intercept ratings set at 175% they are getting mauled with 10-1 losses. Now they typically only hit the airfields a dozen or so times so maybe that is the difference.


I can make 100 attacks to your units by groups of 1 - 2 bombers in each attack. I will loose about 25% of them (20 - 30 or less). Then I will attack your fields by groups of 100 crafts and your fighters will be tired to resist. You cannot change your doctrines in my turn, you understand? And I can in mine!


I understand but have not run into the issue where someone hit a base that often.



Which is where the FW190 makes a hit. If one keeps the airfields at least 3 to 5 hexes behind the front, he is guaranteed immunity from the biplanes. Secondly the bulk of Russian fighters and tactical bombers don't have the range to hit much deeper either. thus a Soviet player is left with only the level bombers to launch attacks, and these will just get shredded by LW fighters.

Frankly such a tactic is gamey, to say the least. It is an exploit of the system as is.



Mike29 -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 3:04:51 PM)

http://www.sendspace.com/file/t6o37q
pass 3322 - sept 41
2500+ lost



Ketza -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 3:18:06 PM)

Well I do keep bases out of biplane range.



Helpless -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 3:42:35 PM)

I took a quick look on the save. Several observations.

1. Axis (not just Germany) lost 2556 planes. Roughly ~2100-2200 would be German.
2. Losses on the ground are 598 planes ~20-25%, i.e. far from being major contributor.
3. There is a huge number of being lost in the air. First of all the number is not correct and should be ~1100, i.e. roughly 50%. Therefore it would be interesting to know when did you start your game? I have big suspicion that it was influenced by the air combat roll bug.
4. Quite big amount of Axis operational losses ~1006. I'd suspect there was some "non optimal" management involved. Ex. big amount of reallocation, bad supply, etc.
5. Soviet losses on the ground are relatively low - 2353. It means that German player was quite passive during first turns.

With all being said, even at current state LW is not dead.



76mm -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 5:10:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

Well I do keep bases out of biplane range.


Exactly, and you also generally keep airbases in big clumps, which are some of the reasons you're getting high kill ratios.



vinnie71 -> RE: EXPLOIT OR NOT - LUFTWAFFE DEAD in 1941 (10/12/2011 6:07:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

Well I do keep bases out of biplane range.


Exactly - Red AF is relatively short legged which is its Achilles heel. Also at the start of the war one should also take care to send only long range fighters as escorts (like the Me110) and save the Me109's for local air superiority.

BTW what do people think of the effectiveness of flak units attached to LW HQ units? They seem to do quite well against the orange boxes but not much against anything else.



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