Rumania and Bessarabia (Full Version)

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Centuur -> Rumania and Bessarabia (10/30/2011 4:17:53 PM)

While trying to understand how Vassal does things, I'm playing a solitaire game there. Now, something has happened, which probably won't happen to anybody else (are the dice in Vassal loaded?)...

The USSR claimed Bessarabia (SO 1939, with a very aggressive Axis play due to very nice weather, so no problems with regards to US entry). The Germans denied the claim, since the USSR probably wasn't able to get units into Rumania in the impulses remaining in the turn (a little gamble on their part with Zhukov on the border, however to end the turn in this allied impulse a 6 had to be rolled, and if there was going to be another one than the Axis could end the turn by passing and rolling a 9 or lower...), so the USSR went to war with the Rumanian army over Bessarabia. They got a two attacks on the 2D10 table (+ 10) and rolled two times: 2 (statistic complete out of the way, but this was the result...). They needed a breakthrough result on one of those attacks to enter Rumania, the other one should empty a hex in Bessarabia. However, no losses on both sides, and all attackers flipped and no Soviet units in Bessarabia, since the attacks were aimed at killing Rumanian Corps set up on the border in Bessarabia...
I guess Zhukov & Co. did a strike or something. Someone should be shot...
The USSR airforce wasn't on strike however and bombed the Ploesti oil fields with significant damage (2 Oil points lost).

Of course, the turn ended an impulse later (Axis not passing, why would they, with the complete Russian army flipped on the border), and peace was declared by Germany, reverting Rumania back to it's neutral status with Bessarabia still in Rumanian hands...

Now, I got a little confused, since I'm getting the impression that in N/D 1939 the USSR might claim Bessarabia again: here is RAW:

Rumania denies the claim
If Rumania denies the USSR’s claim, the USSR must immediately
declare war on Rumania.
Germany can enforce a peace between Rumania and the USSR during
any peace step if:
• no hex of Rumania, outside of Bessarabia, is Soviet controlled;
and
• Germany and the USSR are not at war.
If Rumania and the USSR come to peace:
• Rumania again becomes a neutral minor country;
• the USSR keeps control of Bessarabia provided there is a Soviet
land unit anywhere in Bessarabia; and
• Germany can declare Rumania, Hungary and Bulgaria aligned
with Germany during any later Axis declaration of war steps.
If the USSR conquers Rumania:
• Germany can declare Hungary aligned with Germany during any
later Axis declaration of war step; and
• Bulgaria can never align with Germany but the USSR can
declare it aligned with the USSR during any later Allied
declaration of war step.
While Rumania and the USSR are at war:
• Germany can declare Hungary aligned with Germany during any
Axis declaration of war step; and
• Bulgaria can not align with either Germany or the USSR.

End of RAW...

No where in the rules is written that the USSR isn't allowed to do so. If Finland comes te peace, the USSR isn't allowed to DOW Finland again. With Rumania that doesn't seem te be the case. Is this correct?

Of course, as Germany I can prevent this from happening by aligning Rumania (it is now the first impulse of ND 1939, and Axis got the initiative), but than I don't get Antonescu for free, since he's coming in 1940... I would prefer to wait, but if the USSR is really capable of repeating this action, I will align Rumania now.

So: am I seeing things right that the USSR is able to again claim Bessarabia in the next Allied Impulse?



Red Prince -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (10/30/2011 4:34:20 PM)

I sure hope not! But I'm going to let one of the gurus actually answer the question. It does make me wonder how MWiF handles the situations, though.

(Pretty sure I know the answer for MWiF -- no way does the USSR get a 2nd chance to claim Bessarabia -- but I've never examined the RAW for this exact situation like you just did).



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (10/30/2011 7:09:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

While trying to understand how Vassal does things, I'm playing a solitaire game there. Now, something has happened, which probably won't happen to anybody else (are the dice in Vassal loaded?)...

The USSR claimed Bessarabia (SO 1939, with a very aggressive Axis play due to very nice weather, so no problems with regards to US entry). The Germans denied the claim, since the USSR probably wasn't able to get units into Rumania in the impulses remaining in the turn (a little gamble on their part with Zhukov on the border, however to end the turn in this allied impulse a 6 had to be rolled, and if there was going to be another one than the Axis could end the turn by passing and rolling a 9 or lower...), so the USSR went to war with the Rumanian army over Bessarabia. They got a two attacks on the 2D10 table (+ 10) and rolled two times: 2 (statistic complete out of the way, but this was the result...). They needed a breakthrough result on one of those attacks to enter Rumania, the other one should empty a hex in Bessarabia. However, no losses on both sides, and all attackers flipped and no Soviet units in Bessarabia, since the attacks were aimed at killing Rumanian Corps set up on the border in Bessarabia...
I guess Zhukov & Co. did a strike or something. Someone should be shot...
The USSR airforce wasn't on strike however and bombed the Ploesti oil fields with significant damage (2 Oil points lost).

Of course, the turn ended an impulse later (Axis not passing, why would they, with the complete Russian army flipped on the border), and peace was declared by Germany, reverting Rumania back to it's neutral status with Bessarabia still in Rumanian hands...

Now, I got a little confused, since I'm getting the impression that in N/D 1939 the USSR might claim Bessarabia again: here is RAW:

Rumania denies the claim
If Rumania denies the USSR’s claim, the USSR must immediately
declare war on Rumania.
Germany can enforce a peace between Rumania and the USSR during
any peace step if:
• no hex of Rumania, outside of Bessarabia, is Soviet controlled;
and
• Germany and the USSR are not at war.
If Rumania and the USSR come to peace:
• Rumania again becomes a neutral minor country;
• the USSR keeps control of Bessarabia provided there is a Soviet
land unit anywhere in Bessarabia; and
• Germany can declare Rumania, Hungary and Bulgaria aligned
with Germany during any later Axis declaration of war steps.
If the USSR conquers Rumania:
• Germany can declare Hungary aligned with Germany during any
later Axis declaration of war step; and
• Bulgaria can never align with Germany but the USSR can
declare it aligned with the USSR during any later Allied
declaration of war step.
While Rumania and the USSR are at war:
• Germany can declare Hungary aligned with Germany during any
Axis declaration of war step; and
• Bulgaria can not align with either Germany or the USSR.

End of RAW...

No where in the rules is written that the USSR isn't allowed to do so. If Finland comes te peace, the USSR isn't allowed to DOW Finland again. With Rumania that doesn't seem te be the case. Is this correct?

Of course, as Germany I can prevent this from happening by aligning Rumania (it is now the first impulse of ND 1939, and Axis got the initiative), but than I don't get Antonescu for free, since he's coming in 1940... I would prefer to wait, but if the USSR is really capable of repeating this action, I will align Rumania now.

So: am I seeing things right that the USSR is able to again claim Bessarabia in the next Allied Impulse?

What is the problem?

If the USSR 'claims' Bessarabia a second time (although they already control it) Germany just grants the claim. End of problem.

---

The real risk appears to be that the USSR might DOW Rumania. Now that seems to be permitted by the rules. Therefore, Germany should align Rumania to prevent its occurrence.



Centuur -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (10/30/2011 8:32:04 PM)

No, they USSR doesn't control Bessarabia, since there wasn't a Russian unit inside Bessarabia or Rumania when Germany enforced the peace...
I'm just wondering, if it is allowed for the USSR to claim Bessarabia a second time. If it is (and it sure looks like), it is a little strange...




paulderynck -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (10/30/2011 8:38:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
What is the problem?

If the USSR 'claims' Bessarabia a second time (although they already control it) Germany just grants the claim. End of problem.

Edit: No they don't control it since the USSR did not get a unit into it.
---
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The real risk appears to be that the USSR might DOW Rumania. Now that seems to be permitted by the rules. Therefore, Germany should align Rumania to prevent its occurrence.

... is the right answer. The USSR cannot claim Bessarabia again (I think), but they can DoW Rumania again. If the Axis moves first Germany can align Rumania. Interestingly, per 13.3.3 of RAW, the Russians will not have to do another US Entry roll. ("You can only pick markers for each action once, regardless of the number of times that the action occurs, unless the chart notes otherwise.")

So unless Germany (or Italy if active) is now positioned to send in Peacekeepers, then Germany should align Rumania. This also means they should think twice and check out the Initiative track before imposing a peace to begin with.

Edit: Actually I see nothing thusfar that says the USSR cannot claim Bessarabia again.



Centuur -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (10/30/2011 9:08:30 PM)

Well... since the USSR can declare war on Rumania, this means that Germany will align Rumania now, ending it.
And I didn't see anything preventing another USSR claim for Bessarabia either... I was very surprised by this possibility.



Orm -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (10/30/2011 10:38:37 PM)

I suppose this should be asked to the rules clarification group or Harry.

It is my belief that the intention of the rule is that the demand may only be done once. And it is my belief that if there is an enforced peace between Rumania and USSR then USSR may not dow Rumania.

If this DOW was allowed then USSR could always DOW Rumania if the Allies win the initiative with no way for Germany to stop this by aligning Rumania. There is no way I belive this is the intention of RAW. I do, however, agree that RAW is somewhat vague on this subject and I do not have the energy to debate it one way or the other.



Red Prince -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (10/31/2011 12:27:17 AM)

Rats. I guess we'll have to test this one in MWiF. [:(]



Extraneous -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (10/31/2011 12:52:05 AM)

quote:

19.6.2 Rumania
The USSR doesn’t claim Bessarabia
If the USSR hasn’t claimed Bessarabia:

 
You had your chance.



Red Prince -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (10/31/2011 1:21:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

19.6.2 Rumania
The USSR doesn’t claim Bessarabia
If the USSR hasn’t claimed Bessarabia:

 
You had your chance.

What, exactly, do you mean by this?



Extraneous -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (10/31/2011 3:26:50 AM)

"If the USSR hasn’t claimed Bessarabia:" what follows this statement is what you can do now.

You can't just "claim Bessarabia" now youve already attempted that.

You now have to escalate the situation.


In poker terms: raise or fold.



brian brian -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (10/31/2011 5:20:50 AM)

interesting question that I've never heard before. seems like a highly unlikely situation, but then sometimes a Russian player just relies on the threat of having all of the LND3 and LND4 in range of Ploesti with too few boots on the ground. I've regularly heard a comment on that situation that goes "no sane German player risks the Ploesti fields..."

it has always seemed like the Finns are tougher in this rule, with no 2nd DOW allowed.



Red Prince -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (10/31/2011 8:51:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

"If the USSR hasn’t claimed Bessarabia:" what follows this statement is what you can do now.

You can't just "claim Bessarabia" now youve already attempted that.

You now have to escalate the situation.


In poker terms: raise or fold.

I agree with your sentiment, and feel that's how things should play out, but I think Centuur is right. If you read that set of rules carefully, it doesn't actually say that you can't "claim Bessarabia now you've already attempted that."
quote:

19.6.2 Claims on Rumania

The USSR doesn’t claim Bessarabia
If the USSR hasn’t claimed Bessarabia:
• it cannot declare war on Rumania;
• Rumania can only align with Germany if Germany has declared war either on Yugoslavia or the USSR (not if the USSR has declared war on Germany), or if Germany controls Belgrade;
• Bulgaria can only align with Germany if Germany controls Belgrade or is at war with Greece; and
• Hungary can only align with Germany after Germany has declared war on Yugoslavia or the USSR.

The USSR claims Bessarabia
During any Allied declaration of war step (after the first) while Rumania is neutral, the USSR can claim Bessarabia.
The German player (acting as Rumania) must either allow the claim or deny it.

Rumania allows the claim
If Rumania allows the claim, it stays neutral and Bessarabia becomes part of the USSR for all purposes until the USSR controls no hex in Bessarabia. At that point, Bessarabia again becomes part of Rumania. The USSR can not declare war on Rumania until the USSR is at war with Germany.

Allowing the claim immediately reduces the resources the USSR supplies to Germany by 1 (see 5.1).

In the next Axis declaration of war step, Hungary and Bulgaria make demands on Rumania for Transylvania and South Dobruja respectively. Germany, as mediator, must either allow both claims or deny both.

If Germany allows their claims:
• Transylvania becomes part of Hungary for all purposes. Germany can declare Hungary aligned with Germany during any later Axis declaration of war step.
• South Dobruja becomes part of Bulgaria for all purposes. Germany can declare Bulgaria aligned with Germany during any later Axis declaration of war step.
• Germany can declare Rumania aligned with Germany during any Axis declaration of war step if Germany has declared war on the USSR (not if the USSR has declared war on Germany), is at war with Yugoslavia, or controls Belgrade.

If Germany denies their claims:
• Hungary stops supplying its resource to Germany until Hungary aligns with Germany. Germany can declare Hungary aligned with Germany during any Axis declaration of war step after Germany has declared war on the USSR (not if the USSR declares war on Germany). No more than 1 Hungarian unit can ever be outside of Hungary;
• Bulgaria can never align with Germany but the USSR can declare it aligned with the USSR during any later Allied declaration of war step;
• Rumania becomes aligned with Germany as a full Axis ally during the next Axis declaration of war step. It need no longer keep half of its units inside Rumania - they can all leave.

Rumania denies the claim
If Rumania denies the USSR’s claim, the USSR must immediately declare war on Rumania.

Germany can enforce a peace between Rumania and the USSR during any peace step if:
• no hex of Rumania, outside of Bessarabia, is Soviet controlled; and
• Germany and the USSR are not at war.

If Rumania and the USSR come to peace:
• Rumania again becomes a neutral minor country;
• the USSR keeps control of Bessarabia provided there is a Soviet land unit anywhere in Bessarabia; and
• Germany can declare Rumania, Hungary and Bulgaria aligned with Germany during any later Axis declaration of war steps.

If the USSR conquers Rumania:
• Germany can declare Hungary aligned with Germany during any later Axis declaration of war step; and
• Bulgaria can never align with Germany but the USSR can declare it aligned with the USSR during any later Allied declaration of war step.

While Rumania and the USSR are at war:
• Germany can declare Hungary aligned with Germany during any Axis declaration of war step; and
• Bulgaria can not align with either Germany or the USSR.

So, the parts we are looking at are:
quote:

19.6.2 Claims on Rumania

The USSR claims Bessarabia
During any Allied declaration of war step (after the first) while Rumania is neutral, the USSR can claim Bessarabia.
The German player (acting as Rumania) must either allow the claim or deny it.

Rumania denies the claim
If Rumania denies the USSR’s claim, the USSR must immediately declare war on Rumania.

Germany can enforce a peace between Rumania and the USSR during any peace step if:
• no hex of Rumania, outside of Bessarabia, is Soviet controlled; and
• Germany and the USSR are not at war.

If Rumania and the USSR come to peace:
• Rumania again becomes a neutral minor country;
• the USSR keeps control of Bessarabia provided there is a Soviet land unit anywhere in Bessarabia; and
• Germany can declare Rumania, Hungary and Bulgaria aligned with Germany during any later Axis declaration of war steps.

As you can see, there is nothing here that says the USSR cannot claim Bessarabia again, nor does it say that the USSR cannot DOW Rumania again. Personally, I don't like that, but those are the rules.



Extraneous -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (10/31/2011 12:21:48 PM)

Follow the steps.

Hungary stops supplying its resource to Germany until Hungary aligns with Germany. Germany can declare Hungary aligned with Germany during any Axis declaration of war step after Germany has declared war on the USSR (not if the USSR declares war on Germany). No more than 1 Hungarian unit can ever be outside of Hungary.

Bulgaria can never align with Germany but the USSR can declare it aligned with the USSR during any later Allied declaration of war step.

Rumania becomes aligned with Germany as a full Axis ally during the next Axis declaration of war step. It need no longer keep half of its units inside Rumania - they can all leave.



You had your choice and now Rumania is a full Axis ally even though they are at peace with the USSR. I don’t see a option here to not align Rumania do you?

9.2 How to declare war

You can’t declare war on a minor country that is already controlled by a major power on the other side. However, a declaration of war on a major power is also a declaration of war on every minor country aligned to that major power.

If you want to DoW Rumania you have to DoW Germany.

You can't DoW Germany at this time because of the USSR/German Neutrality Pact. You can't claim Bessarabia because you can't DoW Germany at this time.

Raise or fold? You have to fold.



Red Prince -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (10/31/2011 12:43:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Follow the steps.

Hungary stops supplying its resource to Germany until Hungary aligns with Germany. Germany can declare Hungary aligned with Germany during any Axis declaration of war step after Germany has declared war on the USSR (not if the USSR declares war on Germany). No more than 1 Hungarian unit can ever be outside of Hungary.

Bulgaria can never align with Germany but the USSR can declare it aligned with the USSR during any later Allied declaration of war step.

Rumania becomes aligned with Germany as a full Axis ally during the next Axis declaration of war step. It need no longer keep half of its units inside Rumania - they can all leave.



You had your choice and now Rumania is a full Axis ally (I don’t see a option here do you?) even though they are at peace with the USSR.

If you want to DoW Rumania you have to DoW Germany.


Raise or fold?

None of this has anything to do with the situation. All of these rules are only considered if Rumania allows the claim on Bessarabia. The original question had to do with a situation in which Rumania did not allow the claim.

Therefore, the USSR had to DOW Rumania.
It's attacks failed miserably and the USSR did not manage to get a unit into either Rumania or Bessarabia before the turn ended.
Then, Germany enforced a peace which left Bessarabia under Rumanian control.

So, the question stands: Can the USSR claim Bessarabia again? And/or can it DOW Rumania again?

The rules seem to support a "Yes" answer to both questions.



Extraneous -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (10/31/2011 1:16:42 PM)

Oops got ahead of myself.

The USSR doesn’t claim Bessarabia (It has)
Rumania has denied the claim
Rumania and the USSR have come to peace
Germany can declare Rumania, Hungary and Bulgaria aligned with Germany during any later Axis declaration of war steps.


Want to try again?

31. USSR declares war on other minor (Ge/It) (-9).

Did you do this the first time?



Red Prince -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (10/31/2011 1:21:22 PM)

Extraneous, please include a little commentary in your posts. Again, I'm not sure what point you are making with this. Are you continuing the argument against RAW allowing the 2nd claim/DOW? Or are you agreeing that RAW seems to allow them?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Oops got ahead of myself.

The USSR doesn’t claim Bessarabia (It has)
Rumania has denied the claim
Rumania and the USSR have come to peace
Germany can declare Rumania, Hungary and Bulgaria aligned with Germany during any later Axis declaration of war steps.


Want to try again?

31. USSR declares war on other minor (Ge/It) (-9).

Did you do this the first time?





Extraneous -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (10/31/2011 3:22:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

The USSR doesn’t claim Bessarabia (It has)
Rumania has denied the claim
Rumania and the USSR have come to peace
Germany can declare Rumania, Hungary and Bulgaria aligned with Germany during any later Axis declaration of war steps.


Want to try again?

31. USSR declares war on other minor (Ge/It) (-9).

Did you do this the first time?



I'm Just doing as you requested keeping it brief with as few quotes a possiable.


quote:

Rumania denies the claim

If Rumania denies the USSR’s claim, the USSR must immediately declare war on Rumania.


Each time the USSR has to DoW the neutral minor country Rumania it invokes:


US entrty action 31. USSR declares war on other minor or Vichy France (Ge/It) (-9).

Footnote 5: Rolled once per city, major power, neutral minor country or search.



How many US entry chits are left?



Red Prince -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (10/31/2011 3:29:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

The USSR doesn’t claim Bessarabia (It has)
Rumania has denied the claim
Rumania and the USSR have come to peace
Germany can declare Rumania, Hungary and Bulgaria aligned with Germany during any later Axis declaration of war steps.


Want to try again?

31. USSR declares war on other minor (Ge/It) (-9).

Did you do this the first time?



I'm Just doing as you requested keeping it brief with as few quotes a possiable.


quote:

Rumania denies the claim

If Rumania denies the USSR’s claim, the USSR must immediately declare war on Rumania.


Each time the USSR has to DoW the neutral minor country Rumania it invokes:


US entrty action 31. USSR declares war on other minor or Vichy France (Ge/It) (-9).

Footnote 5: Rolled once per city, major power, neutral minor country or search.



How many US entry chits are left?

Ah. I see what your getting at. That's a very good point. The USSR can't afford to eliminate too many US Entry chits, can it? I hadn't thought of that.

-----

For the record: I did not request fewer references. I simply said they are not required in order to post in the public forums.

If my previous posts on this were unclear, I apologize. However, I won't get into another argument about it.



Ur_Vile_WEdge -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (10/31/2011 5:58:55 PM)

Err it's slightly pedantic, but the USSR attacking one of Belgium, Finland, Rumania, Sweden or Switzerland incurs a -18 U.S. Entry hit, not -9.



paulderynck -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (10/31/2011 6:40:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Each time the USSR has to DoW the neutral minor country Rumania it invokes:

US entrty action 31. USSR declares war on other minor or Vichy France (Ge/It) (-9).

Footnote 5: Rolled once per city, major power, neutral minor country or search.

How many US entry chits are left?

Yes Entry Action 31 is the action, but against Rumania it is (Ge/It) (-18) (the middle selection of Action 31 on the chart).

However, there is no danger of more chits being lost because RAW 13.3.3 says: "You can only pick markers for each action once, regardless of the number of times that the action occurs, unless the chart notes otherwise." (as I noted in Post #5). This is not the same as two different major powers declaring war on the same minor in the same impulse (which does generate two chit resolutions), it is the same major declaring on the same minor.



Centuur -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (10/31/2011 7:14:52 PM)

I've never thought that two dice rolls in Vassal with 2D10 both resulting in a 2 on +10 attacks, created this result.

Personally, I think the USSR can indeed make another claim for Bessarabia. The USSR can also DOW Rumania without an extra US entry die roll being made. I agree with Paul here that this is RAW at this moment.

If this is an oversight by the developers? Who knows...

Anyway: von Ribbentrop did leave Berlin immediately for Bucharest and the Rumanian King took the wise decision to join the Pact of Steel. In the USSR it appears that there was a conspiracy against the Red Army in Moskow, causing the interception of the orders for the Rumanian Front. Therefore, while the Comrades of the Airforce went to war, the army stayed in their quarters... Democratic sources are rumouring about a very large purge in the Soviet Ministery of War... [:D]





Extraneous -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (11/1/2011 2:18:24 AM)

quote:

AUSTRALIAN DESIGN GROUP WiF FE Rule Clarification Summary © 2009, Australian Design Group

9.2: All major powers on this side announce which major powers on the other side they are declaring war on this impulse. They then all announce which neutral minor countries they are declaring war on this impulse.

Each declaration of war on a major power or neutral minor country could trigger a US entry effect (see 13.3.3), which are rolled for after all declarations of war.


quote:

9.2 How to declare war
Each declaration of war on a major power or neutral minor country could trigger a US entry effect (see 13.3.3), which are rolled for after all declarations of war. There is no US entry roll if you declare war on a major power that has units in your major power’s home country (e.g. France could declare war on Italy without a US entry roll if Italian units were in German controlled hexes in Metropolitan France).

China may not declare war.


Additional examples of multiple US entry actions

quote:

10. Japan occupies Chinese city: - each time a Japanese controlled land unit occupies (or reoccupies) a Chinese controlled city in China, there is the possibility of an outrage like the rape of Nanking occurring, an atrocity that the USA public finds out about. You do not roll for cities controlled by the Japanese as a result of a Chinese surrender.


quote:

You can then execute a search and seizure if you want to. If you do, those resources (or build points) are lost. Each search and seizure you execute is a US entry action (see 13.3.3) if it is conducted against a major power not at war with the USA.



Your right about US entrty action 31 being -18.

US entrty action 31. USSR declares war on Belgium, Finland, Rumania, Sweden or Switzerland (Ge/It) (-18).




paulderynck -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (11/1/2011 3:43:29 AM)

The Chinese city and Search and Seizure quotes are good examples of where RAW spells out a specific exception to the "only pick markers for each action once" rule. The other DoW quotes are not because they say "could trigger", which is a conditional statement.

I expect that the "only pick markers for each action once" rule was put in for places like Suez, Gibraltar and Singapore changing hands more than twice in a game, however the rule as written applies to a USSR DoW on Rumania, until ADG decides not and puts something specific to this situation in RAW.



Extraneous -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (11/1/2011 11:17:23 AM)


I included “Japan occupies Chinese city” and “search and seizure” because Footnote 5 affects them as well. And because I though someone might get confused with our discussion because it begins “Roll once” when it is referring to Chinese cities.


quote:

US entrty action 31. USSR declares war on other minor or Vichy France (Ge/It) (-9).

Footnote 5: Rolled once per city, major power, neutral minor country or search.

 
 
Each declaration of war on a major power or neutral minor country could trigger a US entry effect (see 13.3.3), which are rolled for after all declarations of war.

The key phrase is at the beginning of the sentence “Each declaration of war” then we have “country could trigger” because there is a roll involved to determine if a US entry chit is drawn at all.



quote:

Original: Is this your example?

Example: Japan occupies Indo-China. This has a US entry cost of 12. So, you add 1 marker from the common marker pool to the Japan entry pool. Roll a die and compare it to the remaining 2 points. If you roll a 1 or 2, you put a further marker into the Japan entry pool.

You can only pick markers for each action once, regardless of the number of times that the action occurs, unless the chart notes otherwise.



quote:

1. Japan occupies Indo-China (Ja)

Footnote 2: May only be chosen after Vichy government installed.


Are you advocating that since the rules and not the chart says otherwise we should ignore the rules and only accept the chart?

If so then I would like to bring your attention “Footnote 1” from the chart.

quote:

Footnote 1: Each action is only rolled once per game unless otherwise specified.



I advocate that the rules and Rule Clarification Summary both clearly specify, “Each declaration of war can generate a chit “ and therefore meet the requirements of “ the chart noting otherwise”. 




Red Prince -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (11/1/2011 11:53:36 AM)

At the risk of sounding like Bill Clinton, I think what we are running into is a problem with the WiF definition of the word "once" as it is used in Footnote 5:
quote:

5 Rolled once per city, major power, neutral minor country or search.

The options:

A) Once = once per game
B) Once = once per attempt/occurance

Option A) seems to support the USSR being able to DOW a minor multiple times with only the first time resulting in a US Entry roll, but it also does not seem to support a US Entry roll for Japan taking over Sian (for example) each time it happens.

Option B) seems to support a US Entry roll for each of the multiple DOWs the USSR could make on a particular minor, and the Japan situation, too.

I have always thought this was a little ambiguous. Does the "once per" in footnote 5 apply to the target or the country taking the action?

For Example:
quote:

20. Axis declares war on:
--Poland, Spain, Turkey or any American country (12)
--Belgium, Finland, Rumania, Sweden or Switzerland (8)
--Other minor (3)

In this case, each of the lower three entries has footnote 5.

Is that there to clarify that it is "once per" minor country in this row?
This would be so that people don't think: okay, I've taken the hit for a DOW on Spain, so now I can DOW Turkey without any repercussions.

Or does it mean "once" per game for each major power making a DOW on any of these minors?
This would clarify that Germany only rolls once per game for a DOW on Spain, but if Spain becomes neutral again and then Italy makes a DOW . . . then Italy also has to roll for US Entry.

It's entirely possible that I'm missiing something somewhere in here.
-----
Edit: I think I know how I'd play it with my own "house rules", but I guess my point is that RAW needs some lessons in semantics and clarity.



Extraneous -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (11/1/2011 4:44:33 PM)


US entry actions with Footnote 5:

10. Japan occupies Chinese city (Ja) (see US entry action 10 in the rules)

17. Axis conquers other CW Home Country (Major power) (Other CW Home Countries: Canada, India, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand)

18. Axis occupies Gibraltar (Ge/It), Singapore (Ja) or Suez (Objective Cities)

19. Axis align minor ~ Siam (Ja); other (Ge/It) (Neutral minor country)

20. Axis declares war on:
Poland, Spain, Turkey or any American country (Neutral minor country)
Belgium, Finland, Rumania, Sweden or Switzerland (Neutral minor country)
Other minor  (Neutral minor country)

21. Allies support attacked minor (Ge/It) (Neutral minor country)

30. Allies align minor (Ge/It) (Neutral minor country)

31. USSR declares war on (Ge/It):
Poland, Spain, Turkey or any American country  (Neutral minor country)
Belgium, Finland, Rumania, Sweden or Switzerland  (Neutral minor country)
Other minor or Vichy France  (Neutral minor country)

32. Other Ally declares war on (Ge/It):
Poland, Spain, Turkey or any American country  (Neutral minor country)
Belgium, Finland, Rumania, Sweden or Switzerland  (Neutral minor country)
Other minor or Vichy France  (Neutral minor country)

33. Japan declares war on the
CW, France or Netherlands (Ja) (CW & France Major power) (Netherlands Neutral minor country)

34. Japan executes a search and seizure (Ja) (search and seizure)

35. Other Axis major power executes a search and seizure (Ge/It) (search and seizure)

36. Allied major power executes a search and seizure (search and seizure)





Centuur -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (11/1/2011 7:43:53 PM)

I agree with Paul. You roll once per game.

Axis captures Gibraltar: you roll. CW recaptures Gib and than Axis recapture Gibraltar: no roll.
USSR DOW's Rumania: you roll. Germany declares peace and the USSR than DOW Rumania again: no roll.

However: carefully rereading of this rules section gives me the impression that other interpretations of this rule can be defended. So, RAW should indeed be clarified to get this clear.

I'm getting an idea why this game takes so long to code...





paulderynck -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (11/1/2011 7:47:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince
In this case, each of the lower three entries has footnote 5.

Is that there to clarify that it is "once per" minor country in this row?
This would be so that people don't think: okay, I've taken the hit for a DOW on Spain, so now I can DOW Turkey without any repercussions.

Or does it mean "once" per game for each major power making a DOW on any of these minors?
This would clarify that Germany only rolls once per game for a DOW on Spain, but if Spain becomes neutral again and then Italy makes a DOW . . . then Italy also has to roll for US Entry.

It's entirely possible that I'm missiing something somewhere in here.
-----
Edit: I think I know how I'd play it with my own "house rules", but I guess my point is that RAW needs some lessons in semantics and clarity.

No question this part is really poorly written. We need to use both the rules and the chart and hope they don't contradict each other. It's too bad the chart can't be the one and only source of info but footnote 5 is an excellent example of creating confusion by trying to have a nice compact succinct statement that is applicable to umpteen actions.

AAMOF it was footnote 5 that got us into all the trouble with two majors declaring on the same minor in the same impulse. Until we check the RAW text about actions 20, 31 and 32, we don't have clarity. Some have argued that "roll once for each major power declaring war on this minor this impulse" also means you roll again on the second DoW on Rumania because it says "this impulse" so maybe it overrides the "once per action" wording too.

Personally I don't think so. We have some clear-cut statements which I view as the "roll more than once" exceptions:

Chinese cities because it says each time and more importantly "or reoccupies" - this one should be immensely clear.

Search and seizure - "Each search and seizure you execute is a US entry action..." It says it "is" a US Entry action roll, not that it "could trigger" one.

All the rest with footnote 5 generate a US entry roll once and once only, is what I see here.

Edit: And of course I do not mean Russia DoWing Rumania is the same action as Russia DoWing Finland just because they are on the same line on the chart with one footnote 5.



Red Prince -> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia (11/1/2011 7:58:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I agree with Paul. You roll once per game.

Axis captures Gibraltar: you roll. CW recaptures Gib and than Axis recapture Gibraltar: no roll.
USSR DOW's Rumania: you roll. Germany declares peace and the USSR than DOW Rumania again: no roll.

However: carefully rereading of this rules section gives me the impression that other interpretations of this rule can be defended. So, RAW should indeed be clarified to get this clear.

I'm getting an idea why this game takes so long to code...

Amen. I just posted a question in the development forum, hoping to clarify a rule that applies to a test we need to do . . . which is intended to clarify the MWiF position on a different rule. Ack! It's hard to design tests when the rules you are referencing have their own ambiguous bits and pieces. [:)]



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