excessive oil destruction & FIRES?

excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (Full Version)

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viberpol -> excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/11/2011 11:12:49 AM)
Michael, can you please take a look at the attached save? What brings my attention is the oil destruction level. [1] Doesn't it seem a bit too much? Oil hits reported = 91 While real oil destruction = 461 It's 5 times bigger than reported. [&:] [2] If that's WAD and just FOWed, what's the use of this kind of FOW, if an opponent can see the exact number of destroyed industry only just by going into "city bombing" option of an attack. I may be wrong but I think the numbers shown there show the real number of destroyed industry. [3] Take a look at the FIRES number. I wonder what actually FIRES mean and is there any way to estimate their impact? Players accustomed to real number of hits that stem from ordnance (ie. number of bombs/torps and their accuracy/effect etc.) may have problems with FIRES of such a big number. Here... 12 Liberators made 1575 fires? [&:] Then 8 Liberators made 2980 fires?! (during storm) Then if fires destruct oil facilities the real damage from 20 Liberators is about 300 - 400 oil facilities... Well... it just seems fairly too excessive. [:(]

viberpol -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/11/2011 11:29:37 AM)
It almost look like the single manpower hit destroys half Palembang oil fields... Somehow I feel it's not right. [:(][&:] Manual says the firestorm destroys any kind of industry But in this case all other industry in Palembang is intact. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Afternoon Air attack on Palembang , at 48,91 Weather in hex: Thunderstorms Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 13 minutes Japanese aircraft J2M3 Jack x 13 N1K1-J George x 7 N1K2-J George x 5 Ki-61-II KAI Tony x 7 Ki-84a Frank x 11 Allied aircraft B-24J Liberator x 8 F6F-3 Hellcat x 65 Japanese aircraft losses N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed N1K2-J George: 1 destroyed Ki-61-II KAI Tony: 1 destroyed Allied aircraft losses B-24J Liberator: 3 damaged Manpower hits 1 Fires 2980 Aircraft Attacking: 8 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 9000 feet City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb And here's a save from day before to compare.

Chris21wen -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/11/2011 12:29:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: viberpol It almost look like the single manpower hit destroys half Palembang oil fields... Somehow I feel it's not right. [:(][&:] Manual says the firestorm destroys any kind of industry But in this case all other industry in Palembang is intact. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Afternoon Air attack on Palembang , at 48,91 Weather in hex: Thunderstorms Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 13 minutes Japanese aircraft J2M3 Jack x 13 N1K1-J George x 7 N1K2-J George x 5 Ki-61-II KAI Tony x 7 Ki-84a Frank x 11 Allied aircraft B-24J Liberator x 8 F6F-3 Hellcat x 65 Japanese aircraft losses N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed N1K2-J George: 1 destroyed Ki-61-II KAI Tony: 1 destroyed Allied aircraft losses B-24J Liberator: 3 damaged Manpower hits 1 Fires 2980 Aircraft Attacking: 8 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 9000 feet City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb And here's a save from day before to compare. Looks like a freak result. I've been bombing Palembang for nearly two months and never seen anything like that.

michaelm75au -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/11/2011 12:34:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: viberpol Michael, can you please take a look at the attached save? What brings my attention is the oil destruction level. [1] Doesn't it seem a bit too much? Oil hits reported = 91 While real oil destruction = 461 It's 5 times bigger than reported. [&:] The number of hits is just that hits. The damage per hit could be zero or some value.

viberpol -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/11/2011 12:38:14 PM)
A week ago similar number of navy bombers (supposed not trained in land bombing too much) attacked Soerabaja (again thunderstorms): Morning Air attack on Soerabaja , at 56,104 Weather in hex: Thunderstorms Raid spotted at 38 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 13 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M5 Zero x 31 J2M3 Jack x 27 N1K1-J George x 14 N1K2-J George x 17 Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 34 Allied aircraft F4U-1A Corsair x 10 F6F-3 Hellcat x 190 SBD-5 Dauntless x 156 TBM-1C Avenger x 113 No Japanese losses Allied aircraft losses SBD-5 Dauntless: 2 destroyed, 4 damaged SBD-5 Dauntless: 1 destroyed by flak TBM-1C Avenger: 2 damaged Oil hits 24 Fires 644 After a very short fight [4] (shouldn't there be a special trigger "fight to the last man standing" & Japanese fighters fight with a bit more aggression against an enemy trying to get the Empire's crucial resources? [;)]) causing all in all reported 30 oil hits. The real destroyed oil hits is reported here: (don't have to say IRL it's many times bigger)

Xargun -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/11/2011 12:40:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chris H Looks like a freak result. I've been bombing Palembang for nearly two months and never seen anything like that. Not a freak result - in my current PBeM my opponent would send in a dozen B-25s (or maybe B-26s) and do like 1500 Fire by attacking manpower in Palembang. Nothing in the city would be touched except 100+ oil centers destroyed. I captured Palembang at roughly 80% intact and over a matter or 2 weeks with feeble air raids like this my opponent knocked the oil from 800ish to below 400 and there is nothing you can do. If he attacked oil directly the results are what would be expected - a few hits here and there, but on city attack the fires seem to only affect oil and affect them big time - which is silly, as I have yet to see an oil field inside a city. I don't have saves but I have combat reports if needed. Xargun

michaelm75au -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/11/2011 12:41:34 PM)
Fires are generated by bombing Manpower. It is a factor of bomb hits and the effect of the bomb hit.

Xargun -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/11/2011 12:44:06 PM)
Viberpol what version are you running - maybe its a problem with our version ? Chris H what version are you using ? Xargun

michaelm75au -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/11/2011 1:05:15 PM)
Firestorm damage will disable non-Manpower industry, not destroy it. One thing I have seen is that the firestorm can affect all industry in a hex.

viberpol -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/11/2011 1:19:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: michaelm The number of hits is just that hits. The damage per hit could be zero or some value. Maybe that oil destruction is the direct result of the raid and navy bombers. Maybe that's because of huge fires made by small 20-planes raid... I simply don't know. I'm not in a position to comment "with knowledge". But I can comment from the perspective of logic and game experience. IMHO the damage of 5x the hits is simply way too much. Losing almost 500 oil fields in one day is just a game breaker. quote: ORIGINAL: michaelm Firestorm damage will disable non-Manpower industry, not destroy it. One thing I have seen is that the firestorm can affect all industry in a hex. Ok, right... I meant disabling. That's the same in my case because no player has millions of supplies in '44 to recover those fields. quote: ORIGINAL: Xargun Viberpol what version are you running - maybe its a problem with our version ? Chris H what version are you using ? Last turn played with lat beta q9b. Soerabaja results from previous q5 beta

witpqs -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/11/2011 1:20:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: michaelm Firestorm damage will disable non-Manpower industry, not destroy it. One thing I have seen is that the firestorm can affect all industry in a hex. This brings up a slightly different question: how is industry destroyed? Supposedly destroying it is worth 10x the VP of damaging it. I thought firestorm was the only way to destroy it?

viberpol -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/11/2011 1:31:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Xargun Not a freak result - in my current PBeM my opponent would send in a dozen B-25s (or maybe B-26s) and do like 1500 Fire by attacking manpower in Palembang. Nothing in the city would be touched except 100+ oil centers destroyed. I captured Palembang at roughly 80% intact and over a matter or 2 weeks with feeble air raids like this my opponent knocked the oil from 800ish to below 400 and there is nothing you can do. If he attacked oil directly the results are what would be expected - a few hits here and there, but on city attack the fires seem to only affect oil and affect them big time - which is silly, as I have yet to see an oil field inside a city. Well, that's just plainly scary... [:(] Something is wrong here. quote: ORIGINAL: michaelm Fires are generated by bombing Manpower. It is a factor of bomb hits and the effect of the bomb hit. Well, that's confusing. I don't know what has been targeted, but there's not a single manpower hit and yet there's 644 fires and if those fires affect the oil centers as Xargun writes then... [:(] quote: ORIGINAL: viberpol Morning Air attack on Soerabaja , at 56,104 Weather in hex: Thunderstorms Raid spotted at 38 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet. Allied aircraft F4U-1A Corsair x 10 F6F-3 Hellcat x 190 SBD-5 Dauntless x 156 TBM-1C Avenger x 113 No Japanese losses Allied aircraft losses SBD-5 Dauntless: 2 destroyed, 4 damaged SBD-5 Dauntless: 1 destroyed by flak TBM-1C Avenger: 2 damaged Oil hits 24 Fires 644 The same turn second raid: 43 bombers and 750 fires. Morning Air attack on Soerabaja , at 56,104 Weather in hex: Thunderstorms Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 19 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M5 Zero x 31 J2M3 Jack x 25 N1K1-J George x 14 N1K2-J George x 17 Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 33 Allied aircraft F6F-3 Hellcat x 36 TBF-1 Avenger x 13 TBM-1C Avenger x 30 Japanese aircraft losses A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed J2M3 Jack: 1 destroyed Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 1 destroyed Allied aircraft losses F6F-3 Hellcat: 7 destroyed TBF-1 Avenger: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged TBM-1C Avenger: 1 damaged Oil hits 6 Fires 750 Well that's actually results from old turn (q5) played under nex exe q9b. Real q5 exe results were even bigger: over 2000 fires just because of 32 dive bombers?

michaelm75au -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/11/2011 1:37:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs quote: ORIGINAL: michaelm Firestorm damage will disable non-Manpower industry, not destroy it. One thing I have seen is that the firestorm can affect all industry in a hex. This brings up a slightly different question: how is industry destroyed? Supposedly destroying it is worth 10x the VP of damaging it. I thought firestorm was the only way to destroy it? Firestorm get 10x Strategic Points for destroying Manpower in Japan/US/Australia. It also get SPs for disabling/damaging any industry (inc MP). The code shows firestorm as destroying MP only, but damaging all. Same as WITP. [VPs = 2 x SPs loss to player]

michaelm75au -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/11/2011 1:59:00 PM)
Fires will always be shown on combat report if there are any city bomb hits and fires present. It does not mean that the bombing caused fires UNLESS the target was Manpower.

witpqs -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/11/2011 2:19:33 PM)
Thanks, Michael. I guess Manpower being the only one able to be destroyed permanently makes sense.

viberpol -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/11/2011 3:34:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: michaelm quote: ORIGINAL: viberpol Michael, can you please take a look at the attached save? What brings my attention is the oil destruction level. [1] Doesn't it seem a bit too much? Oil hits reported = 91 While real oil destruction = 461 It's 5 times bigger than reported. [&:] The number of hits is just that hits. The damage per hit could be zero or some value. Hmmm... so is it calculated just as if the whole oil centers hub was similar to an airfield? [&:] We all know how easy is to close an airfield with 4Es. We know that the level of damage to an airfield is expressed in percentage (100% means fully operational; no damage). But it's not comparable... 1 oil center is not the same as 1% of an airfield damaged. But to destroy/disable all oil centers in an area... well, that's not a single air strip or a port (one place). In this case reported a single hit has an average damage of 5 scratched oil points per hit. Maybe that should be lowered or maybe the damage should not be calculated towards 100% of oil (900 oil centers) but towards, let's say 100 of oil (meaning 100 oil centers = 100% max cap for a single raid; simulating different locations of oil fields in the area etc.). quote: ORIGINAL: michaelm Fires will always be shown on combat report if there are any city bomb hits and fires present. It does not mean that the bombing caused fires UNLESS the target was Manpower. Don't get it... [&:] So you can attack oil fields (vide Soerabaja attack, no manpower hits, only oil hits so I suppose oil was targeted, but I've seen FIRES info still burning on mouse over Soerabaja/Palembang next morning) and you've got FIRES and if there is manpower in the same hex you've got fires -- that can disable the oil (what Xargun reports)? And there's quite a big number of fires from only 20 planes bombing during thunderstorms (is there a check compare_weather against resulting fires? [;)])

Xargun -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/11/2011 4:03:28 PM)
If you look at the combat report it says the aircraft's target at the bottom. It will say City attack if they picked that - which would cause fires and then heavily damage oil. Looks like the attacks were at both the City and the Oil directly. Xargun

PaxMondo -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/11/2011 6:40:25 PM)
As much as I would hate to have had this result myself, I also know how incredibly easy it is to destroy an oilfield and the associated refining facilities. The amount of care and technology required just to keep these things from blowing up due to accidents is incredible. In war, you cannot hope to keep these from burning if a bomber can get within "sniffing" distance. Besides the WWII examples, even more modern day examples are plentiful: Kuwait oilfields 1980, Beirut refinery 1978, Abadan .... So maybe it should or shouldn't be tied to manpower, but the fact would remain that they need to be incredibly susceptible air attack. Sorry.

michaelm75au -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/12/2011 12:05:25 AM)
"City attack" is a general description for attacks on Industry. You pick the actual industry to attack when you configure the group's mission.

michaelm75au -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/12/2011 12:11:38 AM)
Here is a attack sequence and what could be expected on report for example. Turn Mission/result T1. Bomb Manpower. Cause 5500 fires. T2. Bomb Oil. Get 10 hits but no damage caused. Fires 2200 (fires will usually begin to disperse. This is what is left after dispersal.) T3. Bomb Oil. Get 5 hits and cause damage 40 oil. Fires 880 T4. Bomb Oil. Get 5 hits and cause damage 100 oil. Fires 350

crsutton -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/12/2011 1:12:08 AM)
For the record, all 4Es, dauntless and avengers-perhaps 300-400 attack aircraft (but I have not seen the replay) were set to bomb the oil at Palembang. I would expect an attack of that size to do some significant damage and set quite a few campfires but don't mind if it is tweaked back if the general consensus is that it is excessive. The results might be excessive but considering that the Allied sub war has been a major no show in this game, I am not displeased with the results.

viberpol -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/12/2011 1:22:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo As much as I would hate to have had this result myself, I also know how incredibly easy it is to destroy an oilfield and the associated refining facilities. The amount of care and technology required just to keep these things from blowing up due to accidents is incredible. In war, you cannot hope to keep these from burning if a bomber can get within "sniffing" distance. Besides the WWII examples, even more modern day examples are plentiful: Kuwait oilfields 1980, Beirut refinery 1978, Abadan .... So maybe it should or shouldn't be tied to manpower, but the fact would remain that they need to be incredibly susceptible air attack. Sorry. Refineries... hmm... OK, I agree. I think you're right. They're very fragile and difficult to defend and rebuild. But an oil center in game terms is not a a refinery. It's a crude oil source. It can burn long but then... is it that difficult to rebuild just the same as sophisticated refinery center? quote: ORIGINAL: crsutton For the record, all 4Es, dauntless and avengers-perhaps 300-400 attack aircraft (but I have not seen the replay) were set to bomb the oil at Palembang. I would expect an attack of that size to do some significant damage and set quite a few campfires but don't mind if it is tweaked back if the general consensus is that it is excessive. The results might be excessive but considering that the Allied sub war has been a major no show in this game, I am not displeased with the results. Allied aircraft F4U-1A Corsair x 28 F6F-3 Hellcat x 189 SB2C-1C Helldiver x 57 SBD-5 Dauntless x 259 TBF-1 Avenger x 9 TBM-1C Avenger x 140 Japanese aircraft losses J2M3 Jack: 1 destroyed N1K1-J George: 2 destroyed Ki-61-II KAI Tony: 6 destroyed Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed Allied aircraft losses F6F-3 Hellcat: 8 destroyed SB2C-1C Helldiver: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged SBD-5 Dauntless: 1 destroyed, 13 damaged SBD-5 Dauntless: 1 destroyed by flak TBM-1C Avenger: 9 damaged Oil hits 76 Ross, so take a look at the replay first. Major damage (ok, most hits [;)]) has been made by 400 navy bombers (76 out of 91 hits) & not by the strategic 4E raids that had not been that disastrous this turn actually... Maybe that's the problem linked with the effectiveness of low flying torpedo bombers not using torpedoes... [8\|] It could be quite informative if Michael can give some real numbers of what raid brought what oil center damage here. [&:] Is it possible to extract the actual data from the turn? (out of curiosity) [;)]

Itdepends -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/12/2011 4:46:06 AM)
Once it's burning the well head equipment will be gone, you've got to get the fire out, plug the well and rebuild the well head.

Chris21wen -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/12/2011 8:45:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Xargun Viberpol what version are you running - maybe its a problem with our version ? Chris H what version are you using ? Xargun I'm using the latest Beta. While Viberpol is targeting population I'm targetting oil itself. I'll switch this turn and see what happens.

KenchiSulla -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/12/2011 10:05:23 AM)
Viberpol, if you don't want your critical resource centers destroyed you might want to consider using RADAR at those sites.... Bomb accuracy will drop from the increased intercepts..... Destroying oil facilities must be one of the easiest things to do....

crsutton -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/12/2011 6:41:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: viberpol quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo As much as I would hate to have had this result myself, I also know how incredibly easy it is to destroy an oilfield and the associated refining facilities. The amount of care and technology required just to keep these things from blowing up due to accidents is incredible. In war, you cannot hope to keep these from burning if a bomber can get within "sniffing" distance. Besides the WWII examples, even more modern day examples are plentiful: Kuwait oilfields 1980, Beirut refinery 1978, Abadan .... So maybe it should or shouldn't be tied to manpower, but the fact would remain that they need to be incredibly susceptible air attack. Sorry. Refineries... hmm... OK, I agree. I think you're right. They're very fragile and difficult to defend and rebuild. But an oil center in game terms is not a a refinery. It's a crude oil source. It can burn long but then... is it that difficult to rebuild just the same as sophisticated refinery center? quote: ORIGINAL: crsutton For the record, all 4Es, dauntless and avengers-perhaps 300-400 attack aircraft (but I have not seen the replay) were set to bomb the oil at Palembang. I would expect an attack of that size to do some significant damage and set quite a few campfires but don't mind if it is tweaked back if the general consensus is that it is excessive. The results might be excessive but considering that the Allied sub war has been a major no show in this game, I am not displeased with the results. Allied aircraft F4U-1A Corsair x 28 F6F-3 Hellcat x 189 SB2C-1C Helldiver x 57 SBD-5 Dauntless x 259 TBF-1 Avenger x 9 TBM-1C Avenger x 140 Japanese aircraft losses J2M3 Jack: 1 destroyed N1K1-J George: 2 destroyed Ki-61-II KAI Tony: 6 destroyed Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed Allied aircraft losses F6F-3 Hellcat: 8 destroyed SB2C-1C Helldiver: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged SBD-5 Dauntless: 1 destroyed, 13 damaged SBD-5 Dauntless: 1 destroyed by flak TBM-1C Avenger: 9 damaged Oil hits 76 Ross, so take a look at the replay first. Major damage (ok, most hits [;)]) has been made by 400 navy bombers (76 out of 91 hits) & not by the strategic 4E raids that had not been that disastrous this turn actually... Maybe that's the problem linked with the effectiveness of low flying torpedo bombers not using torpedoes... [8\|] It could be quite informative if Michael can give some real numbers of what raid brought what oil center damage here. [&:] Is it possible to extract the actual data from the turn? (out of curiosity) [;)] Yes I saw that. Actually the replay showed around 500 bombers of all type attacking. It was a pretty hefty raid. Perhaps the avengers are hitting too well but it seems like the SBDs got plenty of hits as well. What sort of AA defenses do you have there? Fort levels? Do you have radar? Perhaps it needs to be scaled back a bit. I don't know. As for the oil facilities, I know that it took some time for them to repair the oil fields in Kuwait after the Iraqis sabotaged the field during the 1st Persian gulf war. We are talking about really a second rate industrial system and even with oil fields there is some serious equipment that needs to be repaired. Oil tanks, well heads pipelines, pumping machinery-equipment that the Japanese economy would be hard pressed to come up with. Basically as the Allied bombed out things in Japan very little got repaired. They just did not have the surplus capacity to repair heavy equipment, much less ships and planes. Of course, you have an intact KB with virtually all the carriers you can get. Perhaps a carrier fight is in order.[:D]

PaxMondo -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/13/2011 6:02:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: viberpol quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo As much as I would hate to have had this result myself, I also know how incredibly easy it is to destroy an oilfield and the associated refining facilities. The amount of care and technology required just to keep these things from blowing up due to accidents is incredible. In war, you cannot hope to keep these from burning if a bomber can get within "sniffing" distance. Besides the WWII examples, even more modern day examples are plentiful: Kuwait oilfields 1980, Beirut refinery 1978, Abadan .... So maybe it should or shouldn't be tied to manpower, but the fact would remain that they need to be incredibly susceptible air attack. Sorry. Refineries... hmm... OK, I agree. I think you're right. They're very fragile and difficult to defend and rebuild. But an oil center in game terms is not a a refinery. It's a crude oil source. It can burn long but then... is it that difficult to rebuild just the same as sophisticated refinery center? Oil wells can take as long, or even longer to replace than a refinery. Many times, you have to re-drill the wells after a fire as the casings crack. Several months each to drill each well (these are shallow wells at this point in time). Even if you have 10 drilling rigs in the field, which is a LOT of rigs by US standards, a 200 well field is several years to re-drill. Palembang is 1000's of wells. In DEI in the 40's, they would have been hard pressed to come up with even 10 rigs. Better to say they might have been able to pull together 5 or so. Very specialized equipment and operators. Refineries in the 40's weren't all that sophisticated, particularly by todays standards. Mostly just distillation towers. They did not treat the oil much, and actually flared (burned) a lot of what they could not use. Now, what actually happens is more like you break it down first and then build it up to what you want. Very little wasted at all. Which could be rebuilt easier? They're both about the same in terms of time and expertise in this era.

viberpol -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/13/2011 10:02:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder Viberpol, if you don't want your critical resource centers destroyed you might want to consider using RADAR at those sites.... Bomb accuracy will drop from the increased intercepts..... Thanks, but I am not that dumb to leave the crucial resources without radar. [;)] There's both type 3 radars and Ta-Chi 7 from base forces and AA units present.

Chris21wen -> RE: excessive oil destruction & FIRES? (11/15/2011 10:36:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chris H quote: ORIGINAL: Xargun Viberpol what version are you running - maybe its a problem with our version ? Chris H what version are you using ? Xargun I'm using the latest Beta. While Viberpol is targeting population I'm targetting oil itself. I'll switch this turn and see what happens. Well that certainy worked but....[&:]

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